Israel's Lies

[RoccoR]

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Israeli sovereignty is not based on conquest. The West Bank was not a conquest over Palestinians.

The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory.

They'd better hurry up.

"Their" territory keeps shrinking.

Conquest is illegal.

(COMMENT)

The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here. Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.

​

◈ Crimea​

◈ China’s Seizure Of Territory In Ladakh ​

◈ China claims of sovereignty over territorial water in South China Sea ​

​

In these very recent (21st Century issues) territorial issues, the fact that all of them are an outcome of military aggression does not change the sovereignty. The Russian exercise sovereign control over the Crimea and the Chinese exercise sovereign control over areas in the South China Sea and the Indian territory of Ladakh. The legitimacy of all these seizures may be questionable. But you don't argue with the Border Guards of the Federal Security Service or the Chinese Border Police.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Toddsterpatriot, et al,

BLUF: The real question is if the Arab Palestinians actually exercise sovereignty over any territory at all?

The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory

["Toddsterpatriot, post: 25289909, member: 29707"]
They'd better hurry up.
"Their" territory keeps shrinking.
[/QUOTE]
(COMMENT)

I say that is questionable. Certainly, this nonsense about their sovereignty based on the assigned borders of the early Mandate Period is bogus. But there are two possibilities:

◈ Area "A" for the Fatah Regime​

◈ Gaza for the HAMAS Regime​

And these are the only possibilities that I see. I have to agree with our friend "Toddsterpatriot." The Hostile Arab Palestinian leadership has not done the Palestinian Nationalist any service.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israeli sovereignty is not based on conquest. The West Bank was not a conquest over Palestinians.

Link.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here. Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.

Conquest is illegal. Nothing legal can come from an illegal act.

You have posted a link saying that conquest is illegal,

 

[Hollie]

The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here. Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.

Conquest is illegal. Nothing legal can come from an illegal act.

You have posted a link saying that conquest is illegal,

What conquest?

link?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here. Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.

Conquest is illegal. Nothing legal can come from an illegal act.

You have posted a link saying that conquest is illegal,

Conquest is illegal.

Maybe if you send a strongly worded letter you can finally get a country?

 

[Street Juice]

When the Jews followed the law, they were blessed. When they turned away, they were punished.

The law like this one where God demands genocide?

When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee,... And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Deut 7:1, 2

 

[Street Juice]

Where does it say the "master race"? What are you talking about?

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. Deut 7:6

 

[Street Juice]

And since when do you get to object to what G-d decides?

If there is no G-d... then you are objecting to nothing. In which case, there is nothing for you to object to. After all, people can make up whatever they want.

But.... if there is a G-d.... and he created everything.... then doesn't that mean he has the right to decide what he does with what he created?

If there is a God, it isn't necessarily Yahweh, the Bloody
If there is a God, you don't get to determine what "He" has "decided" and then interpret it for me.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel is fertile ground.

It wasn't before The Jews made it bloom.

View attachment 369364

Not to mention that the Palestinians exported food long before the Zionists showed up.

Yeah, you wanna tell us who owned the sea port and commerce in Gaza back then?
Not to mention that under Feudal Caliphate rule, the food produce was lowest in the region.

Arabians learned farming from the native Jews,
but being more prone to nomadic stock grazing and Caravan pillaging, weren't much successful.

So, how many Jewish farms were there?

Depending on the period, but Gaza was a key cultural, economic and agricultural Jewish center.
The highest neighborhood in the city is the one that Arabs still call "Harit al-Yahood" (Jewish neighborhood in Arabic).

The main livelihood of the Jewish community there was commerce and agriculture.
And naturally raising many questions regarding traditional agriculture expressed in
many responsa books filled with questions sent by Jews of Gaza.

The Responsa of Rabbi David Ben-Zimrah, and Rabbi Hayim Yosef David Azoulay,
the chief Rabbi of the entire Levant region, all have specifically addressed the
the numerous questions dealing with Jewish farmers of Gaza.

It was as well significant Jewish cultural center, with the songs of Rabbi Yisrael Nagara,
the chief Rabbi of Gaza, became the traditional anthems of Jewish harvest festivals.

There's not a plot of land in the entire country that wasn't a Jewish farm.

Why do you think Muslims love to boast so much about alleged deeds,
but never actually have the guts to reveal the Ottoman archives...?

You don't make any sense. Why were there many hundreds of non Jewish farm villages depopulated and bulldozed on 1948?

Not sure what you mean by "non-Jewish farm",
can you show me a village, that wasn't a Jewish farm prior to Arab conquest?

'Cause suspiciously all these "non-Jewish" farms,
just like the Harit al-Yahood neighborhood in Gaza,
still bear names that clearly trace to their Hebrew origin.

You seem anxious to show me so let's see them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Another one.

Five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948.

Too disorganized to be called armies?

Indeed it was not much of a war but Israel used it as an excuse to steal land.

5 disorganized mobs lose to Israel.
Not the last time disorganized Muslims will lose, eh?

Which leads us to another Israeli lie.

The five Arab armies lost to Israel.

What's the opposite of defeated Israel?

Duck!

Darn ducks, beating the disorganized Muslim rabble.....over and over and over.

So how big is the country of Palestine going to be?

Lichtenstein? Smaller?

The lie is that the Arab armies lost to Israel in 1948.

The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice. Nobody lost that war.

The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice.

We agree, the Arabs didn't win and Israel didn't lose.

The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose.

What did Lebanon lose?
What did Syria lose?
What did Jordan lose?
What did Iraq lose?
What did Egypt lose?

What?

Are you saying loosing is only if they lost land?

Indeed Arabs aren't loosers...
for that they had to actually own something.

So they didn't loose,
they're just a bunch of whiny goat lovers.

Israel claims it won land while none of the parties to the conflict lost any. ?????

You don't make any sense.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: You are trying to mold a "victory" out of a failed Arab attempt to mount a successful intervention against the Israelis. That simply does not wash with the history.

Another one.

Five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948.

(COMMENT)

"On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities. The next day, regular troops of the neighboring Arab States entered the territory to assist the Palestinian Arabs." (Page 10, The Blue Book - The Question of Palestine and the United Nations)

Too disorganized to be called armies?

Indeed it was not much of a war but Israel used it as an excuse to steal land.

(COMMENT)

IF there were forces that used the conflict as "an excuse to steal land" THEN it was the Arab Forces of Egypt and Jordan. (See Below)

5 disorganized mobs lose to Israel.
Not the last time disorganized Muslims will lose, eh?

Which leads us to another Israeli lie.

The five Arab armies lost to Israel.

(COMMENT)

"Between February and July 1949, under United Nations auspices, armistice agreements were signed between Israel, on the one hand, and Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria on the other." (Page 10, The Blue Book - The Question of Palestine and the United Nations)

"The agreements, which were similar in general content, accepted the establishment of the armistice as an indispensable step towards the restoration of peace in Palestine. They also made clear that the purpose of the armistice was not to establish or recognize any territorial, custodial or other rights, claims or interests of any party." (Page 10, The Blue Book - The Question of Palestine and the United Nations)

What's the opposite of defeated Israel?

Duck!

Darn ducks, beating the disorganized Muslim rabble.....over and over and over.

So how big is the country of Palestine going to be?

Lichtenstein? Smaller?

(COMMENT)

The terms "win" and "loss" are layman's terms that our friend P F Tinmore is trying to spin into something that can then be disputed. The fact of the matter is, the Israelis successfully defended their territorial integrity.

The 1948 conflict was not over with the signing of the Armistice. The Armistice Agreements were to remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved. Technically, the 1967 Six-Day War and the 1973 Yom Kipper War, were continuations of the 1948 intervention by the Arab League Forces. The 1948 Conflict and the 1949 Armistice Arrangements were concluded with the Peace Treaties with Egypt and Jordan (1979 and 1994 respectively). Although there is a different kind of Peace Arrangement with Lebanon, it still is considered a "peaceful settlement." Thus the 1948, 1967, and 1973 Conflicts between Israel and the Arab States of Egypt, Jordan (and by extension Iraq), and Lebanon have concluded (although Lebanon still has a dispute over a small parcel of land currently under Israeli control).

The lie is that the Arab armies lost to Israel in 1948.

The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice. Nobody lost that war.

The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice.

We agree, the Arabs didn't win and Israel didn't lose.

(COMMENT)

All the "Armistice Agreements" were facilitated by the United Nations Acting Mediator to the Secretary-General

Actually, Egypt and Jordan both made territorial end-roads penetrating the Gaza Strip and West Bank. These were represented the effective control of territory which the external forces did not have prior to the 1948 intervention. Later, the Egyptians established a Military Governorship and the Jordanians Annexed the West Bank.

The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose.

✪ As of this date:

✦ What did Lebanon lose?​

✪ Net loss of control over the Shebaa Farms (still in dispute and remains unresolved).​

✦ What did Syria lose?​

✪ Net loss of control over the Golan Heights.​

✦ What did Jordan lose?​

✪ Net gain of control over the West Bank & Jerusalem.​

✦ What did Iraq lose?​

✪ No net gain or loss​

✦ What did Egypt lose?​

✪ Net loss over Gaza Strip.​

Israel claims it won land while none of the parties to the conflict lost any. ?????

You don't make any sense.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure that Israel makes that claim at all as a political platform or a legal defense. I'm not even sure that Israel sees arguing points of Customary and International Law on any of these issues is to their advantage. In the history of the last 1000 expulsions (by the world powers of the day) of the Jewish People, I'm not sure that the Jewish People see any fair treatment towards them by these powers.

◈ There is an argument to be made relative to the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel.​

​

◈ There is an argument to be made relative to the international boundary between Jordan and Israel.​

These arguments are based on the Peace Treaties with Egypt and Jordan (1979 and 1994 respectively).

There is an argument to be made over whether or not the West Bank and Jerusalem were ever taken from the Arab Palestinians by the Israelis. At the end of July, 1988, the Jordanian Government cut all ties with the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and left it under the effective control of Israel. This was before the PLO proclaimed independence.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The UN Armistice Agreements (with Jordan and Egypt) were in force only until the permanent Peace Treaties were established. Articles XII(2) in both agreements state: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"

OK, but that ducks my question. (Nothing new here.)

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Another one.

Five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948.

Too disorganized to be called armies?

Indeed it was not much of a war but Israel used it as an excuse to steal land.

5 disorganized mobs lose to Israel.
Not the last time disorganized Muslims will lose, eh?

Which leads us to another Israeli lie.

The five Arab armies lost to Israel.

What's the opposite of defeated Israel?

Duck!

Darn ducks, beating the disorganized Muslim rabble.....over and over and over.

So how big is the country of Palestine going to be?

Lichtenstein? Smaller?

The lie is that the Arab armies lost to Israel in 1948.

The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice. Nobody lost that war.

The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice.

We agree, the Arabs didn't win and Israel didn't lose.

The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose.

What did Lebanon lose?
What did Syria lose?
What did Jordan lose?
What did Iraq lose?
What did Egypt lose?

What?

Are you saying loosing is only if they lost land?

Indeed Arabs aren't loosers...
for that they had to actually own something.

So they didn't loose,
they're just a bunch of whiny goat lovers.

Israel claims it won land while none of the parties to the conflict lost any. ?????

You don't make any sense.

Israel claims it won land while none of the parties to the conflict lost any. ?????

Only because it was larger after the conflict than before.

 

[P F Tinmore]

On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan.

Another Israeli lie. By the time the foreigners declared themselves a state they had already blown past those proposed (but never implemented) borders and was deep into proposed Arab and UN territory. Israel never claimed those borders.

 

[Taz]

On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan.

Another Israeli lie. By the time the foreigners declared themselves a state they had already blown past those proposed (but never implemented) borders and was deep into proposed Arab and UN territory. Israel never claimed those borders.

Does it really burn your camel dung that arab states are making peace with Israel?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestine was an "entity" created by the British Government for assuming responsibility and control over the territory.

Palestine was a state created out of post war treaties. The Mandate did not commence until about three months after the signing on the Treaty of Lausanne. Palestine had to be there before the Mandate could start.

 

[Likkmee]

It was pre-dedicated in The Kings second(or third) revision of The Script and right on time.Gotta stick to the script. Written by scribes....who scribble. The fun will be on schedule too.
Project Blue Beam.

 

[Likkmee]

Google will likely declare a dnsa from redirects from USMB while y'all look that up

 

[P F Tinmore]

The application of the concepts pertaining to "nationality" and "citizenship" in Israel is a matter for the Israelis to apply. Not you.

I know it's not me. However, Israel must conform with the rules of nationality and state succession as laid out in international law. I have posted that many times. You need to keep up.