Irony (in Christian Terms)

[IndependntLogic]

I wonder how many of you have ever critically examined the root basis of your "faith." This was one of the foundational premises of Christianity that I first rejected.

That is not what Jesus said, nor is it what the Bible teaches. Before you start criticizing me for not examining the roots of my doctrine, which is not actually related to my faith, you should make a small effort to understand it yourself.

Oh wow. You and me are in agreement on something. That's it. Tomorrow I'm dividing by zero...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I wonder how many of you have ever critically examined the root basis of your "faith." This was one of the foundational premises of Christianity that I first rejected.

That is not what Jesus said, nor is it what the Bible teaches. Before you start criticizing me for not examining the roots of my doctrine, which is not actually related to my faith, you should make a small effort to understand it yourself.

Oh wow. You and me are in agreement on something. That's it. Tomorrow I'm dividing by zero...

You can't be wrong all the time.

 

[catzmeow]

Exactly what could your children do that would make you feel that throwing them into a roaring fire would be a fit punishment? If you think that is normal parent/child interaction, I hope you don't have children.

We are not talking about a mans judgment that is limited we are talking about a Gods judgment that knows all.

His ways are definately diffgerent from ours., Being a just God he does not go back on his words and God does not destroy us for evey sin that is why there is atonement. He will forgive sin but on his final judgment he knows everyone that is worthy of the world to come young and old.

He has the ability to know our hearts there is nothing we can hide from him. You and I think like a finite human being where God reason and thinks as an infinite being. But he made it clear to all men there will be an accounting for all sin period.

We don't have the ability to look at a child and know he will be a career criminal or serial killer God does. We see all children as innocent but the bible say's we all sin and we were born in sin.

This post is non-think. You're parroting circular reasoning back to me rather than actually responding to the question. Which, is basically what I expect from you, but it's unfortunate that you are apparently unable to critically examine your own beliefs.

 

[Sunshine]

Exactly what could your children do that would make you feel that throwing them into a roaring fire would be a fit punishment? If you think that is normal parent/child interaction, I hope you don't have children.

Perhaps you should learn to think more allegorically. The lake of fire, I believe, comes after you are are spirit. If one does not have a body, then what would a fire do? Think about it. There is an allegory here and you have completely missed it.

There are many wonderful ancient writings out there. But some people get so hung up that they simply miss the higher meaning.

 

[SW2SILVER]

I wonder how many of you have ever critically examined the root basis of your "faith." This was one of the foundational premises of Christianity that I first rejected.

Do you believe we are all ignorant and uneducated or something ?

God is both loving and just,do loving parents hand out punishment ?

My parents had flaws, unlike GOD. We are told GOD is perfect, is love, etc…He made everything. Even, SATAN. EVIL. GOD made evil. God is, inherently, evil? We are made to believe there is free will, yet, GOD knows everything...so, existence is predetermined and we are just puppets with a deluded sense of freedom...Yes? Does that sound accurate? Religion sounds more and more like insanity.

 

[IndependntLogic]

So you only reply to the more extreme posts / views about faith and ignore the ones that make sense and legitimately challenge your claims. Hmmm. Okay. I guess if you're weak on a position, that would be the smart way to go... ;-)

 

[Sunshine]

I wonder how many of you have ever critically examined the root basis of your "faith." This was one of the foundational premises of Christianity that I first rejected.

Do you believe we are all ignorant and uneducated or something ?

God is both loving and just,do loving parents hand out punishment ?

My parents had flaws, unlike GOD. We are told GOD is perfect, is love, etc…He made everything. Even, SATAN. EVIL. GOD made evil. God is, inherently, evil? We are made to believe there is free will, yet, GOD knows everything...so, existence is predetermined and we are just puppets with a deluded sense of freedom...Yes? Does that sound accurate? Religion sounds more and more like insanity.

Perhaps it is just that people do not understand the intermingling of good and evil. Have you never had a thing you thought evil to turn out for your good? Or a thing you thought good turn out to be evil. How does on remove one side of the coin and still leave the coin intact?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP2h1gJcsHU]That's bad - YouTube[/ame]

 

[IndependntLogic]

1. Not all Christians hold that belief / interpretation.
2. Hmmm. You are really concerned with the beliefs of others, aren't you? So then, you're just like Christians who are really concerned with your beliefs! I bet you really appreciate them.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Exactly what could your children do that would make you feel that throwing them into a roaring fire would be a fit punishment? If you think that is normal parent/child interaction, I hope you don't have children.

We are not talking about a mans judgment that is limited we are talking about a Gods judgment that knows all.

His ways are definately diffgerent from ours., Being a just God he does not go back on his words and God does not destroy us for evey sin that is why there is atonement. He will forgive sin but on his final judgment he knows everyone that is worthy of the world to come young and old.

He has the ability to know our hearts there is nothing we can hide from him. You and I think like a finite human being where God reason and thinks as an infinite being. But he made it clear to all men there will be an accounting for all sin period.

We don't have the ability to look at a child and know he will be a career criminal or serial killer God does. We see all children as innocent but the bible say's we all sin and we were born in sin.

This post is non-think. You're parroting circular reasoning back to me rather than actually responding to the question. Which, is basically what I expect from you, but it's unfortunate that you are apparently unable to critically examine your own beliefs.

Really , explain how I am unable to critically examine my beliefs ?

I gave my opinions that were formed through thought and reading of the scriptures.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I wonder how many of you have ever critically examined the root basis of your "faith." This was one of the foundational premises of Christianity that I first rejected.

Do you believe we are all ignorant and uneducated or something ?

God is both loving and just,do loving parents hand out punishment ?

My parents had flaws, unlike GOD. We are told GOD is perfect, is love, etc…He made everything. Even, SATAN. EVIL. GOD made evil. God is, inherently, evil? We are made to believe there is free will, yet, GOD knows everything...so, existence is predetermined and we are just puppets with a deluded sense of freedom...Yes? Does that sound accurate? Religion sounds more and more like insanity.

I have spent many years researching the scriptures and i have gained more reason to believe what is contained in the scriptures then deny it as superstition and or myth.

Yes freewill is the reason our imperfection came to light. We were created perfect but with the ability to choose for ourselves is that not what we see ?

Yes he knows all things and he knew for man to serve him in the right manner that we need God in our lives we had to see it for ourselves.

Predetermined is that a crime and who is to say what is predetermined you're trying to think for God I am not gonna attempt it.

 

[Shogun]

And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'

 

[Sunshine]

And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'

This is from a parable:

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Luke 16 NIV - The Parable of the Shrewd Manager Jesus - Bible Gateway

Do you know what a parable is?

parable[par-uh-buhl]   noun
1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

Parable | Define Parable at Dictionary.com

The 'burning' and the 'thirst' are metaphors for being cut off from God. The rich man is 'burning' and 'thirsting' to be back in favor with God. No doubt he would like to have some of that 'living water' Jesus spoke of.

Do you not understand what metaphors are?

a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.”

Metaphor | Define Metaphor at Dictionary.com

The Bible is full of metaphor, allegories, AKA parables. Jesus was schooled in the Egyptian mystery religion and much of his teaching is cloaked in the mystery of allegory and metaphor which he learned there. I admire those who try to make the words of the Bible literal for they are sincere people, but they have their work cut out for them. If you don't have a body your spirit can metaphorically 'burn' and 'thirst' for God, but you have no flesh to literally burn with a literal fire!

I know, concrete thinking individuals have a problem with this. But thinking in the abstract is not a function of intellect. I know some PhDs who are concrete thinkers and some borderline retarded folks who can think abstractly. And, FYI, abstract thinking can be learned if one wishes to embark upon that journey. (OMG, I used a metaphor!)

 

[Dragon]

You can't pick and choose what part of the bible you want to believe in.

Of course I can. Why can't I? If I reject the idea that the sun can be stopped in the sky for hours, or that the entire world perished in a flood, or that rabbits chew their cuds, why does that mean I must reject the idea that the Kingdom of Judaea was once conquered by the Babylonians, or that the founder of Pauline Christianity wrote a number of letters to his disciples, merely because they appear in the same book? It is no more rational to reject every word of the Bible as false than it is to suppose it all to be infallible.

The point about Hell, as I see it, is this. Christians (well, some Christians) attribute to the creator of the universe despicable actions that, if undertaken by a human being, would be condemned in stronger terms than those of any actual historical tyrant. Even Hitler or Stalin never condemned anyone to be tortured forever and ever without end. (I suppose either of them might have, given the ability . . . )

While it could be argued that no man is in any position to judge God, we certainly are in a position to judge the claims of other people about God in terms of whether they make sense, be it rational or moral sense. That is a claim that makes no moral sense. That is a God that I cannot in good conscience support, and therefore one that I cannot believe in.

 

[Sunshine]

An interesting little aside: There is a legend that when Jesus was initiated into the Egyptian mystery school, he as others before him, got into the sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid to contemplate his own death. The priest then strikes the sarcophagus 3 times with a tuning fork. According to legend, when the sarcophagus was struck for the third time with Jesus in it, a corner of the sarcophagus fell off. After that, no one was ever initiated there again. Jesus was the last.

 

[Sunshine]

You can't pick and choose what part of the bible you want to believe in.

Of course I can. Why can't I? If I reject the idea that the sun can be stopped in the sky for hours, or that the entire world perished in a flood, or that rabbits chew their cuds, why does that mean I must reject the idea that the Kingdom of Judaea was once conquered by the Babylonians, or that the founder of Pauline Christianity wrote a number of letters to his disciples, merely because they appear in the same book? It is no more rational to reject every word of the Bible as false than it is to suppose it all to be infallible.

The point about Hell, as I see it, is this. Christians (well, some Christians) attribute to the creator of the universe despicable actions that, if undertaken by a human being, would be condemned in stronger terms than those of any actual historical tyrant. Even Hitler or Stalin never condemned anyone to be tortured forever and ever without end. (I suppose either of them might have, given the ability . . . )

While it could be argued that no man is in any position to judge God, we certainly are in a position to judge the claims of other people about God in terms of whether they make sense, be it rational or moral sense. That is a claim that makes no moral sense. That is a God that I cannot in good conscience support, and therefore one that I cannot believe in.

Where in the Bible does it say that rabbits chew their cud?

 

[IndependntLogic]

I wonder how many of you have ever critically examined the root basis of your "faith." This was one of the foundational premises of Christianity that I first rejected.

One of mine...

 

[Youwerecreated]

And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'

That is the problem you need to look at the whole of scripture. The point you missed is that the torment was not literal, the torment is separation from God. Abraham was God's friend and God Said he was Holy would HGod be punishing a faithful servant in hell a place of torment ? How bout the son of God would he punish him him hell with fire ?

King david was also called a Holy one.

Psa 16:10 For You will not leave My soul in hell; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption.

So does God according to the scriptures truly torment His Holy servants in Hell ?

Job 14:13 Who will grant that You would hide me in the grave, that You would keep me secret, until Your wrath is past, that You would set me a fixed time and remember me?

What are the condition of the dead ? They're not being tormented literally.

Dan 12:2 And a number of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will come out of their sleep, some to eternal life and some to eternal shame.

Eph 5:14 Therefore he says, "Awake, sleeping ones! And arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light."

 

[Dragon]

Where in the Bible does it say that rabbits chew their cud?

Leviticus 11:16: "And the hare, because it chews the cud, but does not have a cloven hoof, is unclean to you."

 

[IndependntLogic]

You can't pick and choose what part of the bible you want to believe in.

Of course I can. Why can't I? If I reject the idea that the sun can be stopped in the sky for hours, or that the entire world perished in a flood, or that rabbits chew their cuds, why does that mean I must reject the idea that the Kingdom of Judaea was once conquered by the Babylonians, or that the founder of Pauline Christianity wrote a number of letters to his disciples, merely because they appear in the same book? It is no more rational to reject every word of the Bible as false than it is to suppose it all to be infallible.

The point about Hell, as I see it, is this. Christians (well, some Christians) attribute to the creator of the universe despicable actions that, if undertaken by a human being, would be condemned in stronger terms than those of any actual historical tyrant. Even Hitler or Stalin never condemned anyone to be tortured forever and ever without end. (I suppose either of them might have, given the ability . . . )

While it could be argued that no man is in any position to judge God, we certainly are in a position to judge the claims of other people about God in terms of whether they make sense, be it rational or moral sense. That is a claim that makes no moral sense. That is a God that I cannot in good conscience support, and therefore one that I cannot believe in.

Good for you! Nor should you believe in the interpretation of God that goes against your heart - which is the only place God is found.
I do not believe in hell. it is an instrument used to scare the sh*t out of ancients and midievals when the church was losing money and / or control over the population or politics.
The counter to "hell" is simple. I dont' care what anyone does, eventually I could forgive them.
Therefore, if hell exist as the fundamentalists claim, I am more forgiving than God. Which you know, as cool as I am, seems unlikely.

 

[Sunshine]

Where in the Bible does it say that rabbits chew their cud?

Leviticus 11:16: "And the hare, because it chews the cud, but does not have a cloven hoof, is unclean to you."

According to this hares DO infact reingest some of their food, not exactly like cows do, though:

Does the hare really chew cud? - Come Reason Ministries