Debate Now (Invite Only) Limits on Federal Authority to police mass public lawlessness

[flacaltenn]

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Shelzin
westwall
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Lets try something more specific and timely.. Note that this format is available to ALL members.. I'm trying to build "smaller communities" here, not just trying to spam you.. LOL..

It's an election year.. Probably has everything to do with the restlessness and chaos on the streets and maybe in the White House.. Trump announced his intentions "to do something about it" last week.. Now we see a little "toe dipping" by limiting the Federal interventions to the arguably smart protection of FEDERAL assets, personnel, property in cities that refuse to quell the street rebellions..

Trump plans to send federal authorities into cities to break up ‘war zone’ of violence

President Trump is planning to direct federal law enforcement “help” for Democratic-run cities that have seen a rise in violence this summer, calling them “war zones.”

www.washingtontimes.com

I do believe there is a requirement to protect the expansive and expensive Federal infrastructure scattered from coast to coast and Guam and Puerto Rico... There are IRS, Social Security, Federal courthouses, Passport offices, EPA, Dept of Ag, FBI, dams, power, and scad more pieces of this behemoth presence all about.. Would be stupid and criminal to ALLOW them to be attacked, damaged, and the lives of those people threatened..

But at SOME point, setting loose the Marshalls, the DHS security, Treasury Agents and all the other Federal policing functions in these cities that have called them "armies" or invaders is gonna light up a major conflict.. How FAR should this go?

We could also include the Federal responsibilities and powers to establish any kind of "national policing".. This would be the diff between (EG) having DOJ layout some GUIDELINES -- all the way to ACTIVE Federal involvement in local/state policing actions..

I was just made aware a couple days ago that there is a structure to this unrest. The guy in the vids is an activist, obviously, but he lays out an informative argument. What I really liked about it was putting this thing into a framework I could use to make sense of what in hell the protesters are doing. And perhaps why some cities have shied from taking a heavy handed approach.









The manuals
https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/ran...ND_RR291z1.pdf

It's going to take you close to an hour to listen to all these, but I found it worth it. It's another country heard from, so to speak. Don't know who he is -- calls himself Beau.

The fact that CONSTITUTIONALLY PRESCRIBED powers of the Fed govt to PROTECT their personal, offices, agencies, infrastructure are being carried out CAN NOT be blamed for the rebellious mobs getting mobs getting larger..

Just supports my observation that it looks more like the Confederate secession decision to attack Ft. Sumter.. So I'm NOT impressed with his first video.. I hope they get better, but he's missing the larger picture here.. If these mobs WANT insurrection, the longer they go unopposed, the more LIKELY that could that happen..

”Attacks on federal personnel, agencies, infrastructure” ...
“It looks more like the Confederate secession decision to attack Fort Sumter ...”

Has the Oregon National Guard or the Portland Police Department under the direction of its Democratic Mayor ... fired cannons at the federal courthouse?! This is insane and partisan hyperbole. Positively shameful & hysterical comment.

You've never heard of warfare by Proxy?? It's very popular with Marxists. Don't NEED a seated govt's cooperation.,. Although THEY GOT FULL COOPERATION from the seated govts of Portland and Seattle...

Not insane.. It's real and dangerous.. When was concept of attacking Federal personnel and property NOT AT LEAST --- a crime?

 

[flacaltenn]

In fact, if its organized and persistent -- it legally qualifies as insurrection..


What is the suppressing insurrection?
The Insurrection Act of 1807 is a United States federal law that governs the ability of the President of the United States to deploy military troops within the United States to put down lawlessness, insurrection, and rebellion. The general purpose is to limit presidential power, relying on state and local governments for initial response in the event of insurrection. Coupled with the Posse Comitatus Act, presidential powers for domestic law enforcement are limited and delayed.

And that is exactly the question of this thread... The grounds for insurrection are already met.

Ft Sumter was insurrection.. Secession is when the local govts REFUSE access and cooperation in putting down the insurrection.. If this lady gets her way -- we're nearly there...

‘I’ve Had Enough’: Portland’s First Black Female City Commissioner Tells the Mayor to Give Her Control Over Police

 

[OldLady]

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We are opening the Invite Only threads in this forum. You may continue to post threads under the OLD structured debate rules OR identify the thread as Invite Only as given in the auxiliary rules below.. READ THEM CAREFULLY. There have been a couple edits since the Announcement of the feature...

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Invite List Below.
Shelzin
westwall
Sun Devil 92
katsteve2012
Mac1958
NewsVine_Mariyam
WinterBorn
Tom Paine 1949
OldLady
FA_Q2
K9Buck
The Professor

Lets try something more specific and timely.. Note that this format is available to ALL members.. I'm trying to build "smaller communities" here, not just trying to spam you.. LOL..

It's an election year.. Probably has everything to do with the restlessness and chaos on the streets and maybe in the White House.. Trump announced his intentions "to do something about it" last week.. Now we see a little "toe dipping" by limiting the Federal interventions to the arguably smart protection of FEDERAL assets, personnel, property in cities that refuse to quell the street rebellions..

Trump plans to send federal authorities into cities to break up ‘war zone’ of violence

President Trump is planning to direct federal law enforcement “help” for Democratic-run cities that have seen a rise in violence this summer, calling them “war zones.”

www.washingtontimes.com

I do believe there is a requirement to protect the expansive and expensive Federal infrastructure scattered from coast to coast and Guam and Puerto Rico... There are IRS, Social Security, Federal courthouses, Passport offices, EPA, Dept of Ag, FBI, dams, power, and scad more pieces of this behemoth presence all about.. Would be stupid and criminal to ALLOW them to be attacked, damaged, and the lives of those people threatened..

But at SOME point, setting loose the Marshalls, the DHS security, Treasury Agents and all the other Federal policing functions in these cities that have called them "armies" or invaders is gonna light up a major conflict.. How FAR should this go?

We could also include the Federal responsibilities and powers to establish any kind of "national policing".. This would be the diff between (EG) having DOJ layout some GUIDELINES -- all the way to ACTIVE Federal involvement in local/state policing actions..

I was just made aware a couple days ago that there is a structure to this unrest. The guy in the vids is an activist, obviously, but he lays out an informative argument. What I really liked about it was putting this thing into a framework I could use to make sense of what in hell the protesters are doing. And perhaps why some cities have shied from taking a heavy handed approach.









The manuals
https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/ran...ND_RR291z1.pdf

It's going to take you close to an hour to listen to all these, but I found it worth it. It's another country heard from, so to speak. Don't know who he is -- calls himself Beau.

The fact that CONSTITUTIONALLY PRESCRIBED powers of the Fed govt to PROTECT their personal, offices, agencies, infrastructure are being carried out CAN NOT be blamed for the rebellious mobs getting mobs getting larger..

Just supports my observation that it looks more like the Confederate secession decision to attack Ft. Sumter.. So I'm NOT impressed with his first video.. I hope they get better, but he's missing the larger picture here.. If these mobs WANT insurrection, the longer they go unopposed, the more LIKELY that could that happen..

Probably you shouldn't waste your time, FCT, since your mind sounds closed on this. My reaction after listening to all of them was somewhat like yours--he makes a strong argument but he's only presenting one half of the reality on the ground in places. As he mentions in one of the later videos, we've gone beyond protest with some of these guys--the agitators. They're just there to fight, for whatever reason. I'm a supporter of the police, too. I wanted to say to him "But what about....?" at least fifty times. However, the approach of the Portland and Seattle mayors doesn't sound quite so insane when you hear that our own military and Rand both say WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T GO IN LIKE A TOUGH GUY.

And like I said, listening gave me a framework for what is going on here. Not so much to criticize Trump, but to get some kind of handle on what in hell is going on. Because it doesn't seem to make sense to me at this point and I can easily see both sides.

Independent observers have reported that the feds' arrival HAS doubled the crowds in Portland. Seattle protesters began upping their crowds and their aggression before the feds arrived there, in support of Portland. And when they heard that the feds were coming there, they didn't even wait for dark--burned construction buildings on the site of the new Juvenile Detention facility. So I believe you're wrong there, that powers of the Fed govt to PROTECT their personal, offices, agencies, infrastructure are being carried out CAN NOT be blamed for the rebellious mobs getting mobs getting larger..
Yeah, I think it can. It might be the only solution, but it has escalated things.

 

[flacaltenn]

However, the approach of the Portland and Seattle mayors doesn't sound quite so insane when you hear that our own military and Rand both say WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T GO IN LIKE A TOUGH GUY.

agree with most everything. But I just looked up the number of times that presidents have USED the Insurrection Act with ACTUAL FEDERAL TROOPS.. Like in Nat Guard or Army units. And I counted 10 times.. Mostly city riots and desegregation..

But HERE --- Trump is NOT using the Insurrection act. They are NOT Army or Nat Guard.. They ARE THE forces we hire to PROTECT Federal property or have been cross deputized into (IIRC) The Federal Protection Service... In other words -- government EMPLOYEES (federal officers I grant you) but NOT "troops" like the 10 times that happened since 1950...

So, it's a measured step.. As measured as our Troll in Chief can manage to BE measured.. LOL..,..

 

[flacaltenn]

So I believe you're wrong there, that powers of the Fed govt to PROTECT their personal, offices, agencies, infrastructure are being carried out CAN NOT be blamed for the rebellious mobs getting mobs getting larger..

Kinda spaced a bit there. What I meant to say is (and subsequently tried to clarify) is that it DOES NOT MATTER if the Federal intervention GREW the crowds.. Because it's ALL about the election.. Maybe trying to OBSCURE the election and/or the Durham probe of an attempted coupe by ENCOURAGING lawlessness and anarchy in the deep blue islands..

These decisions shouldn't be DELAYED BECAUSE it's an election year.. And que sera sera as to how the balloting falls out BECAUSE law/order/citizen safety is going to shit pretty quick with the "abolishing and hobbling of police" and giving mental midget anarchists "room for creative destruction" in these true blue areas....

Maybe my gut/emotion is BETTER on this than worrying about insurrection against the Fed govt.. My libertarian friends are mostly overstating this in the OPPOSITE direction.. That those Fed agents are just a step away from the E. German Stasi or Gestapo.. I'm not going in THAT direction either..