Interesting quote

[acludem]

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."

From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli 1797. Unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams.


Hmmmm...and I thought you righties said this country was founded on the Christian religion.

acludem

 

[dilloduck]

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."

From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli 1797. Unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams.


Hmmmm...and I thought you righties said this country was founded on the Christian religion.

acludem

I liked the quote made by Cagle when he thanked his heavenly father for his victory over Reed.

 

[acludem]

So poor old Ralph has fallen out of favor with the big guy upstairs, too bad for him.

acludem

 

[dilloduck]

So poor old Ralph has fallen out of favor with the big guy upstairs, too bad for him.

acludem

Np--A new Christian took his place.

 

[theHawk]

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."

From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli 1797. Unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams.


Hmmmm...and I thought you righties said this country was founded on the Christian religion.

acludem

I have never heard that the country was founded on the Christian religion. If it was we'd be a theocracy.

It was founded on Christian values, not the belief that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

 

[acludem]

It says "not found on the Christian religion in any way" Wouldn't that include "Christian" values? This country was founded on a new set of American values, i.e. freedom, individualism, community,

acludem

 

[Annie]

Really that was interesting:

I am assuming you are referring to the Barlow translation:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

It seems that there is a bit more to be found in the original documents:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796n.htm

 

[CSM]

Really that was interesting:

I am assuming you are referring to the Barlow translation:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

It seems that there is a bit more to be found in the original documents:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796n.htm

It would seem that even back then there were those who would misrepresent the case.

 

[Annie]

I don't think so:

NOTE REGARDING THE Barlow TRANSLATION

The translation first printed is that of Barlow as written in the original treaty book, including not only the twelve articles of the treaty proper, but also the receipt and the note mentioned, according to the Barlow translation, in Article 10. The signature of Barlow is copied as it occurs, but not his initials, which are on every page of the fourteen which is not signed. The Humphreys approval or confirmation follows the translation; but the other writings, in English and Spanish, in the original treaty book, are not printed with the translation but only in these notes.

It is to be remembered that the Barlow translation is that which was submitted to the Senate (American State Papers, Foreign Relations, II, 18-19) and which is printed in the Statutes at Large and in treaty collections generally; it is that English text which in the United States has always been deemed the text of the treaty.

As even a casual examination of the annotated translation of 1930 shows, the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic; and even as such its defects throughout are obvious and glaring. Most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase, "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point

A further and perhaps equal mystery is the fact that since 1797 the Barlow translation has been trustfully and universally accepted as the just equivalent of the Arabic. Its text was not only formally proclaimed as such but has been continuously printed and reprinted as such; and yet evidence of the erroneous character of the Barlow translation has been in the archives of the Department of State since perhaps 1800 or thereabouts; for in the handwriting of James Leander Cathcart is the statement quoted above that the Barlow translation is "extremely erroneous"; and while the Italian translation of the Arabic text on which that endorsement appears, presents its own linguistic difficulties, largely owing to its literal rendering and its consequent non-literary character as Italian, it is none the less in essence a reasonable equivalent of the Arabic. Indeed, allowing for the crudeness of the original Arabic and the changes which always result from a retranslation, it may be said that a rendering of the Italian translation into English gives a result which is in general not dissimilar from the English translation of Doctor Snouck Hurgronje of 1930; and of course the most cursory examination of the Italian translation would show (assuming the Italian to be even an approximation of the Arabic), that the Barlow translation, as Cathcart wrote, was "extremely erroneous"; but nothing indicating that the Italian translation was even consulted has been found, and it does not appear that it was ever before 1930 put into English. Some account of the Italian translation as a document is given above.

 

[acludem]

Regardless of whether Barlow's translation was correct, the fact still remains that the Senate passed and John Adams signed this translated version of the treaty, with that sentence in it. Therefore they must have believed the words "As the Government of the United States is not in any way founded on the Christian Religion..."

acludem

 

[Annie]

Regardless of whether Barlow's translation was correct, the fact still remains that the Senate passed and John Adams signed this translated version of the treaty, with that sentence in it. Therefore they must have believed the words "As the Government of the United States is not in any way founded on the Christian Religion..."

acludem

Then again, one could say the whole treaty, including that paragraph are irrelevant, since it was superceded after the war and the new treaty did not include any such paragraph.

 

[CSM]

Regardless of whether Barlow's translation was correct, the fact still remains that the Senate passed and John Adams signed this translated version of the treaty, with that sentence in it. Therefore they must have believed the words "As the Government of the United States is not in any way founded on the Christian Religion..."

acludem

I seriously doubt the intent of the treaty was to determine which, if any, religion the US government was founded on. I suppose that technically you are correct in this one particular case.

I am waiting for the day when Congress passes the law which prohibits anyone who holds belief in any religion or is an adherent thereof is barred from running from public office lest they taint the laws and policies of the United States.

 

[Bonnie]

Did you know that our Library of Congress in Washington DC has a beautiful lunette on its second floor that lauds understanding in the Book of Proverbs?

Why get understanding with all “thy getting”, because as another psalm reminds us: “By wisdom is a house built, but by understanding is it established.”

Understanding is the glue that holds family life together, and for that matter nations and the world. Its opposite, misunderstanding is often the scourge of anything or anyone it touched.

For more information and pictures of religious art, friezes and sculpture in and around the U.S. Capitol in Washington, DC, please obtain a copy of the book: One Nation Under God: Religious Symbols, Quotes, and Images in Our Nation's Capital, Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, IN, published in 2001.


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Did you know that on the ground floor of the Library of Congress in Washington, DC there is a beautiful lunette titled: Manuscript Books. It portrays monks sitting in a monastery library meticulously copying manuscripts. As we enter into this scene, it takes our imagination back to early Christianity when monasteries were educational centers that played a crucial role in passing on the Christian Tradition and the classical literature of great civilizations. Were it not for the monk’s labors, the wisdom of religious and secular literature upon which we base our values most probably would have been lost.

On first appearance, it would seem that the daily routine of copying manuscripts, even though it was done in the peaceful surroundings of a monastery, was very monotonous. What could be more boring than sitting for hours on end reproducing dusty, old manuscripts? On second look, however, we learn the monks’ work was anything but dull. Not only were they copyists, they also corrected errors, wrote commentaries on the texts, artfully illuminated pages, were bookbinders, and deciphered poorly preserved manuscripts. Their work turned them into scholars, artists, craftsmen, detectives, and, ironically, hunters.

According to commentators of that age, the scriptores (from the Latin scriptor for “writer”), as these monks were called, held a noble vocation. Peter the Venerable wrote of them: “He (a monk) cannot take to the plow? Then let him take up pen; it is much more useful. In the furrows he traces on the parchment, he will sow the seeds of the divine words. . .He will preach without opening his mouth; without breaking silence, he will make the Lord’s teaching resound in the ears of the nations; and without leaving the closter, he will journey far over land and sea.”

Interestingly, the work of copying and amending books went beyond monastery walls. Among other things, it included raising sheep to provide parchment upon which to write. It is said that ti took a flock of sheep for copying a book by Seneca or Cicero. In order to procure leather and skins required for bindng these books, monks would go into the forests to hunt deer, roebuck, and boar.

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Did you know that on the east side of the Supreme Court there is a frieze depicting Moses, Confucius and Solon the Great Law Giver. Kneeling in front of them is a woman who represents the virtue of mercy.

Did you know that mercy has three connotations:

1. The womb of a woman, meaning that when we forgive we forgive from the bottom of our heart, i.e., from our inner most self.

2. A covenant, meaning that when we forgive we recommit our selves to each other and bond. Mercy enables us to once again come together and unite with each other.

3. Mercy is not a quid pro quo, i.e., when we forgive another there is no expectation of receiving a reward or compensation for our forgiveness. Forgiveness is a one-way street in which there is no return.

One other tidbit: In the Summa St. Thomas Aquinas quotes Cicero on Caesar in which Cicero says of Caesar that his greatest virtue was mercy.

In Latin misericordia, a forgiving heart, reminds us that mercy, like courage, take heart.

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Did you know that the Library of Congress has four beautiful murals on its second floor that depict the four cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, courage and temperance? Interestingly, Prudence [portrayed as a woman] is holding a mirror in one hand and a snake in the other. The snake represents imprudence and the evil it causes. The holding of the mirror might be interpreted as being circumspect, i.e., looking behind and all around, and not being myopic. This is what prudence counsels us to do to make prudent judgments.

Another interpretation might be that Prudence is looking herself squarely in the eye. Prudence advises us to be clear sighted, i.e., not to flinch when we look at the truth of the matter. To be prudent, one must first look one’s self squarely in the eye on how well he or she is facing the truth.

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Did you know the United States Capitol contains five statues of prominent Catholic figures? They include Fr. Eusebio Kino, S.J. representing Arizona, Fr. Pierre Marquette, S.J. representing Michigan, Fr. Junipero Serra representing California, Mother Joseph representing the state of Washington, and Damian representing Hawaii.

Kino mapped out much of Mexico’s Baja area and lower Arizona. He also introduced the Pima Indians to the use of dairy produces and various types of agriculture.

Marquette explored the shores of Lake Michigan starting at Mackinac, Michigan and then continued his explorations paddling by canoe to Green Bay, Wisconsin, down the Fox River into the Wisconsin River and into the Mississippi River. Some claim his statue is the most beautiful in the U.S. Capitol.

If you look at a map of California and follow Highway #1 along the California coast, you will notice several historical monasteries, all founded by Serra, even though he was in severe pain during his entire trip from Santa Cruz, Mexico to San Francisco.

Mother Joseph hails from Canada, but ended up in Washington where she established the first schools, orphanages and hospitals. She is reported to have helped build these buildings with her own hands. She learned the trade from her father who was a carriage builder.

Damian was born with the name, Jozef de Veuster. As a young priest he chose to go to Molokai and serve the lepers there. This meant a life in exile, since anyone who came in contact with lepers could never return to ordinary life. At the time he went to Molokai, it was a living hell in which violence and debauchery reigned; housing was poor to none; sanitation was nil, and hopelessness pervaded the island. He himself became a leper and died on Molokai. Later the United States Navy with the Belgium Navy escorted his body back to Belgium where he was given a king’s burial.


Did you know that there are medallions of Pope Innocent III and St. Louis, in addition to one of Moses in the House of Representatives in the U.S. Capitol in Washington, DC? Here we ask, why is St. Louis given such an important recognition?

St. Louis led an exemplary life, bearing constantly in mind his mother's words: "I would rather see you dead at my feet than guilty of a mortal sin." His biographers have told us of the long hours he spent in prayer, fasting, and penance, without the knowlege of his subjects. The French king was a great lover of justice. French fancy still pictures him delivering judgements under the oak of Vincennes. It was during his reign that the "court of the king" (curia regis) was organized into a regular court of justice, having competent experts, and judicial commissions acting at regular periods. These commissions were called parlements and the history of the "Dit d'Amiens" proves that entire Christendom willingly looked upon him as an international judiciary. It is an error, however, to represent him as a great legislator; the document known as "Etablissements de St. Louis" was not a code drawn up by order of the king, but merely a collection of customs, written out before 1273 by a jurist who set forth in this book the customs of Orléans, Anjou, and Maine, to which he added a few ordinances of St. Louis.


Did you know that there is a magnificent frieze on the east side of the Supreme Court that depicts Moses, Confucius and Solon the great Greek lawgiver?

Moses is seated in the middle with Solon standing on one side and Confucius standing on the other. One must wonder if the person who designed this frieze knew Hebrew tradition and that being seated [as Moses is] means being “The” teacher.

The pose of Moses with Confucius and Solon standing seems to say that Moses is the primary teacher when it comes to law. In other words, God's law supercedes the wonderful laws for which Confucius and Solon were known for.


Did you know that there is a frieze above the benches of the Supreme Court Judges in our Supreme Court in Washington, D.C. that speaks of virtue and its antithesis?


On it are engraved allegorical figures who represent the struggle between the powers of good and evil. Standing on the lift side of Justice are Wisdom, Evil [a figure entangled with snakes], Corruption, Slander, Deception, and Despotic Power. On the right side of Divine Inspiration [an angel with wings and standing on the shoulder of Justice] are Truth, Defender of Virtue, Charity, Peace, Harmony, and Security.

Did you know that St. Paul wrote Deus temperavit corpus, God put temperance into our body, which is another way of saying God implanted harmony/order/unity within us. When we practice temperance, we maintain that harmony within us. When we are intemperate, we become inordinate or out of order. When we practice temperance, we also practice excellence in life because we are in possession of self and in order with God’s law within us.


Did you know that on Pennsylvania Avenue and Seventh Street, a few blocks west of the U.S. Capitol is the Temperance Fountain? It contains four inscriptions around its temple-like roof: faith, hope, love and temperance. The crane represent drinking water over imbibing in alcohol. There is an ugly fish under its roof that can be interpreted as Leviathan, the god of chaos. When God created the earth, he put order into the world. The ordered world is called cosmos, and is the direct opposite of chaos, or disorder.

In St. Paul we are told that Deus temperavit corpus — God tempered us. In other words, God put order/harmony/balance within us. Whenever we over drink or eat, misuse sex and abuse our body, we introduce disorder into body. We become inordinate, and hence, intemperate.

Interestingly, one of Washington, D.C.’s best liquor stories [Ajax] faced this fountain in its early days.


Did you know that in the Reading Room of the Congress in the Library of Congress there's a mosaic over one of the fireplaces in it in which Law is seated between works of good and evil.

On her right are industry, peace and truth, and on her left are fraud, discord and violence. Interestingly, there are doves at the feet of law symbolizing peace.



Did you know that in the Cox Corridor on the Congress side of the U.S. Capitol in Washington, DC is a magnificent mural lauding the Spanish missions in this country?

And did you know that the majority of cities in California, Mexico and Texas are named after saints and Catholic traditions because of the work of these mission.

For example, we have San Diego, San Bernardino, Los Angeles, San Matteo, Corpus Christi, San Antonio, San Francisco, San Fernando, Vera Cruz, San Jose, Sacramento, etc.


Did you know that in the Reading Room of the Congress on the ceiling is a mural entitled "The Light of Truth"?

If you look closely at it, you will see the image of two cherubs on each of its corners that represent truth.

One set of cherubs is holding a square; the second set a level; the third set a plumb line and the fourth set is reading the Bible.

The three instruments for building remind us to be on the level, to be on the square and to plumb the depths for truth. The Bible contains the Word of God, which is the Truth.
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Did you know that a block from the U.S. Capitol the three-sided Trylon of Freedom stands outside the District Court Building in which early pilgrims praying before a cross represent freedom of religion. Also on the trylon are the Ten Commandment and a dove representing the Holy Spirit.

Did you also know that the knee in Hebrew means strength. The kneeling woman on the trylon represents the conceding of our strength to God who is our strength.

http://www.jknirp.com/diduno.htm

Not to mention hundreds of works by Brumidi...

 

[theHawk]

It says "not found on the Christian religion in any way" Wouldn't that include "Christian" values? This country was founded on a new set of American values, i.e. freedom, individualism, community,

acludem

I suppose you could argue that. But Christian-Judeo values (i.e. values from the Bible) seem to share alot of those American values. Seems like a stupid debate your bringing up, you act as though just because some politicians signed a piece of paper that means everything on it is just plain fact and we cannot argue against it.
If you're trying to imply that our founding fathers wanted religion to be absolutely separate from government, then why is it they make people swear on oath on the bible? You're really grasping at staws here aculdem, remember there is nothing in the Constitution that says there is a "separation of church and state" which is of course the mantra that has been burned into every liberal's mind. Wake up, break the chains of stupidity you've been shackled in your whole life.

 

[dilloduck]

It says "not found on the Christian religion in any way" Wouldn't that include "Christian" values? This country was founded on a new set of American values, i.e. freedom, individualism, community,

acludem

Individualism ???? You killing me:rotflmao:
Is that why you belong to a "union" ???

Oh the Irony !!!

 

[Abbey Normal]

Then again, one could say the whole treaty, including that paragraph are irrelevant, since it was superceded after the war and the new treaty did not include any such paragraph.

Ouch, ouch. The truth hurts, Kathianne!

 

[acludem]

Politically and internationally speaking the treaty is irrelevent. The historical relevance is the fact that in 1797, whether or not the translation was correct, the United States Senate unanimously approved a treaty that included a line denying that the Government of the United States was in any way founded on the Christian religion. Whether or not the translation was correct is irrelevent.

acludem

 

[Abbey Normal]

Politically and internationally speaking the treaty is irrelevent. The historical relevance is the fact that in 1797, whether or not the translation was correct, the United States Senate unanimously approved a treaty that included a line denying that the Government of the United States was in any way founded on the Christian religion. Whether or not the translation was correct is irrelevent.

acludem

The founding fathers were determined to prohibit a state-sponsored religion. Everyone knows that, and it is not disputed. Nothing you have cited contradicts that, or adds any more anti-Christian sentiment to it.

The bigger question is: What are you so afraid of that you search so passionately for ways to de-Christianize our history and our country's traditional and lasting values? I promise not to vote for anyone who wants to force you to convert, okay? Unlike Islam, the Christian God wants people to come to him willingly, not by force or threat of violence. I swear.

 

[dilloduck]

The founding fathers were determined to prohibit a state-sponsored religion. Everyone knows that, and it is not disputed. Nothing you have cited contradicts that, or adds any more anti-Christian sentiment to it.

The bigger question is: What are you so afraid of that you search so passionately for ways to de-Christianize our history and our country's traditional and lasting values? I promise not to vote for anyone who wants to force you to convert, okay? Unlike Islam, Christians' God wants people to come to him willingly, not by force or threat of violence. I swear.

What she said !

 

[Bonnie]

The founding fathers were determined to prohibit a state-sponsored religion. Everyone knows that, and it is not disputed. Nothing you have cited contradicts that, or adds any more anti-Christian sentiment to it.

The bigger question is: What are you so afraid of that you search so passionately for ways to de-Christianize our history and our country's traditional and lasting values? I promise not to vote for anyone who wants to force you to convert, okay? Unlike Islam, Christians' God wants people to come to him willingly, not by force or threat of violence. I swear.

EXCELLENT!!!!