Insurance mandate: Should the healthy pay for irresponsibility?

Mar 13, 2010
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Many Democrats are arguing that an insurance mandate is necessary so that everyone will be forced to get health insurance. This is for the sake of cost sharing; nowadays, for instance, many consumers are looking to tighten their belts and find savings everywhere they can. One bet many poor healthy people have made is to not get health insurance because they won't need it enough to justify the cost. Insurance companies lose many of their healthy subscribers, so they lose profit; as a result, those who are too sick remain on the plan, but for the company to offset its losses, it has to increase premiums. This is probably what caused the recent 39% premium increase Anthem imposed in California (statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?ind=346&cat=6&rgn=6). A mandate will prevent the possibility of this happening in the future; people will have to get insurance even if it would not be economically rational, and insurance companies get more profit.

I have two main disagreements with this:
  • Healthy people should not have to pay for sick people directly because sickness is often caused by poor lifestyle behaviors. If some people make poor decisions about their health, others (the healthy who would be forced to get insurance for cost-sharing) should not be forced to pay for it. Call me heartless, but I think if you eat so much that you're 300 pounds and need coronary bypass surgery or something, you should be the one to pay for it. It's basic personal responsibility.
  • The government has no imperative to force citizens to buy something simply so that an industry can make more profit. Without the mandate, the people in need will disproportionately desire health insurance more - but that's how it is for every single other good and service the market provides. It's not unfair to the companies, they're voluntarily providing a service (hopefully) and others are voluntarily choosing to purchase that service or not.

Firstly, the healthy should not have to pay for those who make bad decisions and make themselves sick or require expensive surgery or drugs. Of course, there are many ailments which are not caused by negligence, but many are. For instance, eating at McDonalds every other day, or taking the elevator up to the 2nd floor, or using a motorized lawn mower you ride on, or not exercising, etc. Recent advances in technology and manufacturing have increased our ability to stay inactive or to buy cheap, unhealthy goods. You can see the effects of thsese things today:

Obesity:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/USObesityRate1960-2004.gif
2/3 of all Americans are overweight.
1/3 of all Americans are obese.
American Health Rankings said:
In 2018, the cost of obesity at a national level is projected to be $1,425 per person. Source: americashealthrankings.org/2009/spotlight/cost.aspx"
($1425 per person * ~300 million people = $427,500 million, or $427.5 billion)

Diabetes:
MedicineNet said:
If nothing is done, the number of Americans with diabetes will nearly double in the next 25 years and spending on the disease will nearly triple, a new study shows. ... By 2034, as many as 44 million Americans will have diabetes, up from 23 million today, according to the new projections, published in the November issue of the American Diabetes Association journal Diabetes Care.

The cost of caring for diabetes patients is projected to rise from $113 billion to $336 annually, before adjusting for inflation.
Source: medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=108138
Medical Journal Source:care.diabetesjournals.org/content/32/12/2225.full

Alcoholism:
CDC said:
  • Percent of adults who were current regular drinkers (at least 12 drinks in the past year): 50
  • Number of alcoholic liver disease deaths: 13,050
  • Number of alcohol-induced deaths, excluding accidents and homicides: 22,073
Source: cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

The bottom line is that poor lifestyle choices are a significant cause of much of our extravagant health care spending. These poor choices should not be subsidized by unrelated third-parties (the healthy) - it creates a moral hazard. People are more likely to make bad decisions if they know others would pay for potential consequences.

Secondly, even if the lack of a mandate gives a company greater cost pressures, that's no reason to interfere with the market simply for the sake of providing the company more profit. We don't force corporations to operate at a loss; why should we force some consumers to operate at a loss (be forced to buy insurance)? This would simply be a giveaway to the insurance companies. They're already making billions of dollars in profits; why should the government interfere simply to give them more, hurting healthy citizens in the process?

Of course, there is one caveat applicable to both of these, which is that some sicknesses are not caused by risky behaviors. It would be quite difficult to fairly and consistently separate those responsible, and given that reducing costs is one of the main reasons for health reform, I don't see a solution, other than the following:

There is also the idea that, whether or not one is responsible for one's ailment, the state nevertheless has a duty to help out financially. While this may have philosophical merit, I don't think it's workable here, given that personal freedom is supposed to be one of the main principles of the country, and that cost control is absolutely necessary.

One last argument for the mandate is that some will buy health insurance only when they get sick, decreasing the insurance industry's profits if they decide to carry you. A possible counter is that the firms may be free to deny your insurance application, which would incentivise getting insurance before you need it, for the sake of cost-sharing among the healthy.

What do you think?
 
I think in 4, 3, 2, 1 the libruls on this board will call you a hearless bastard with zero compassion..
 
You are a heartless bastard with zero compassion! :)

Seriously though I didn't even get to finish reading it yet.
 
You are a heartless bastard with zero compassion! :)

Seriously though I didn't even get to finish reading it yet.


Hey--man then drag out your own freaking wallet for all those kids that are eating at Mickey dee's.


Then drag out your wallet to stop me from drinking too many beers--while I am on this board- talking to you-:lol::lol:


BTW--Thanks for your support--:lol::lol:


That is if you're not one of those "restless" leg syndrome patients or those that have ecrkitle dysfunction patients or all the new pharmactucial drugs that have come out of the market "that WE ALL GET to pay for through higher medical insurance PREMIMUMS--that the pharmactuical industry has been PUSHING on of for several YEARS now.

Congrats--our medical insurance pemiums are paying for an old Man's hard on--ENJOY your bill
 
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One last argument for the mandate is that some will buy health insurance only when they get sick, decreasing the insurance industry's profits ??? if they decide to carry you. A possible counter is that the firms may be free to deny your insurance application, which would incentivise getting insurance before you need it, for the sake of cost-sharing among the healthy.

What do you think?

This is the crux of the mandate right here, not that the insurance "Won't make a profit" but that they won't carry you period -- And the person then becomes a non-paying burden on the system. When you're uninsured and you crush your femur - At home - with nobody to blame - Who do you think pays for that? The paying members of the system do, whether it's through premiums or higher bills for those paying cash.

Not to be a jerk, but the rest of your post sounded like a lot of white noise.
 
ahemmmm, that IS THE BUSINESS MODEL for health insurance....

the HEALTHY ALWAYS pays for the unhealthy....THAT is just the way insurance is... and has always been.....it is the definition of insurance.
 
The top 1% of the country who got Bush tax cuts should pay for this. Fair is fair. They got, now they pay.

God bless America.
 
This is the crux of the mandate right here, not that the insurance "Won't make a profit" but that they won't carry you period.
Just as an example, here's one summary of the argument I've heard involving company profits:
A key requirement of the House and Senate health reform bills is that all Americans without employer or government coverage must purchase health coverage through a new insurance exchange. The reason is to avoid the ravages of "adverse selection" by "free-riders" who wait until they get sick to buy insurance and thereby bankrupt the system.
This is the crux of the mandate right here, not that the insurance "Won't make a profit" but that they won't carry you period -- And the person then becomes a non-paying burden on the system. When you're uninsured and you crush your femur - At home - with nobody to blame - Who do you think pays for that? The paying members of the system do, whether it's through premiums or higher bills for those paying cash.
I don't get it. If the company "won't carry you period", why would you be a "non-paying burden on the system" if you don't even have a contract with the company? If you crush your femur, and you don't have catastrophic insurance at least, then you should be the one to pay for it. This incentivises everyone to get some kind of insurance before something bad happens (else, if you apply for insurance right when you have the accident, the company will be free to deny your application because it wouldn't be profitable).
 
The top 1% of the country who got Bush tax cuts should pay for this. Fair is fair. They got, now they pay.
While I agree with you in principle that they should be the ones to pay for programs like these (for the most part), that's a different issue. Health care affordability in general, differentiating the rich from the poor, is different from differentiating costs of the healthy vs the unhealthy.
 
The top 1% of the country who got Bush tax cuts should pay for this. Fair is fair. They got, now they pay.

God bless America.

They do, why don't you, the uber rich in Hollywood, Bono, Penn and all of those millionaire Congress members contributing your tax refunds to other's health care?
 
Insurance mandate: Should the healthy pay for irresponsibility?


What do you guys think insurance is? By it's very nature, the healthy pay for the irresponsible. Get injured in a car accident? The healthy people insured by your insurance company pay your bills. No wonder some of you are bent out of shape about healthcare reform. You have no clue how insurance works.
 
What do you guys think insurance is? By it's very nature, the healthy pay for the irresponsible.
No, insurance at its core is to allow risk-sharing, among people in general. Usually people are pretty responsible; even if one gets in a car accident, it surely wasn't deliberate. Complete responsibility can never eliminate the possibility of a catastrophe, whether in relation to cars or to health. Sometimes people are reckless, sometimes not.

Insurance allows risk-sharing; that doesn't necessitate irresponsibility, though; it could simply be bad luck. But in relation to the individual mandate on health care, many things that affect health are caused by irresponsible decisions, which the healthy people then have to pay for through the insurance pool.

I'm not protesting against risk-sharing because, as you point out, risk-sharing (the lucky vs. the unlucky) is the heart of insurance. I'm protesting against forced cost-sharing between the responsible and the irresponsible.
 
One last argument for the mandate is that some will buy health insurance only when they get sick, decreasing the insurance industry's profits if they decide to carry you. A possible counter is that the firms may be free to deny your insurance application, which would incentivise getting insurance before you need it, for the sake of cost-sharing among the healthy.


This idea only works if insurance companies are prohibited from cancelling coverage when people get sick. Getting coverage before you need it is certainly prudent but it's of no value if the insurance company can just cancel you when you DO need it and AFTER you've paid premiums for years and years.
 
This idea only works if insurance companies are prohibited from cancelling coverage when people get sick. Getting coverage before you need it is certainly prudent but it's of no value if the insurance company can just cancel you when you DO need it and AFTER you've paid premiums for years and years.
Exactly. That's why we need legislation prohibiting insurance companies from dropping people because of preexisting conditions (or something like that).
 
The top 1% of the country who got Bush tax cuts should pay for this. Fair is fair. They got, now they pay.

God bless America.

Every single person who pays taxes received a tax cut from President Bush's tax cuts.
 
Every single person who pays taxes received a tax cut from President Bush's tax cuts.
Not everyone got very much, though.
costanzo.org/Images/More%20to%20the%20Rich.jpg
President Bush stumbled Feb. 19, saying the average tax cut is $1,089. The White House corrected that figure to $1,586. But the fact is that most Americans won't see anywhere near either of those amounts.

As we've said before when disputing equally misleading lowball figures given by Howard Dean, half of all individuals and families will get less than $470, and half will get more. The “average” is misleading because it is inflated by very large cuts given to a relative few at the top.
 
This is the crux of the mandate right here, not that the insurance "Won't make a profit" but that they won't carry you period.
Just as an example, here's one summary of the argument I've heard involving company profits:
A key requirement of the House and Senate health reform bills is that all Americans without employer or government coverage must purchase health coverage through a new insurance exchange. The reason is to avoid the ravages of "adverse selection" by "free-riders" who wait until they get sick to buy insurance and thereby bankrupt the system.
This is the crux of the mandate right here, not that the insurance "Won't make a profit" but that they won't carry you period -- And the person then becomes a non-paying burden on the system. When you're uninsured and you crush your femur - At home - with nobody to blame - Who do you think pays for that? The paying members of the system do, whether it's through premiums or higher bills for those paying cash.
I don't get it. If the company "won't carry you period", why would you be a "non-paying burden on the system" if you don't even have a contract with the company? If you crush your femur, and you don't have catastrophic insurance at least, then you should be the one to pay for it. This incentivises everyone to get some kind of insurance before something bad happens (else, if you apply for insurance right when you have the accident, the company will be free to deny your application because it wouldn't be profitable).

Because he's still going to get surgery for that crushed femur. His bill will never be paid, and the hospital will subsidize that cost by spreading it among paying customers.
 
It's rather sad that those who are for ObamaCare because they are Anti-Big Insurance don't grok that this mandate is actually something that will ensure insurance company profitability (which is on its way to utility company status). The main goal of ObamaCare is to derisk Big Insurance Companies' financial performance via government mandates to limit service, require participation, and guarantee income.
 
It's rather sad that those who are for ObamaCare because they are Anti-Big Insurance don't grok that this mandate is actually something that will ensure insurance company profitability (which is on its way to utility company status). The main goal of ObamaCare is to derisk Big Insurance Companies' financial performance via government mandates to limit service, require participation, and guarantee income.

That and big pharmaceutical companies. This whole scam is not for the good of the people.
 

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