Inspiration Occurs When “Logic” Is Out of the Way

[Christopher]

I watched a few years ago on the Discovery Channel a segment on the human body and heard some interesting information about our dreams and the activity of the brain during sleep (REM in particular). It used to be thought by scientists that our brain would shut down for the night when we sleep. This we now know is far from the truth. What is very interesting is that scientists have found that there is one part of the brain that does shut down while the rest of the brain is active: the logical part. Scientists on the show were interviewed and discussed how they have used their dreams to help them solve problems they could not solve using analytical reasoning during the day. Their dreams helped them “think outside the box” and give them inspiration to see the answers to their problems more clearly. It is almost as if the logical part of our brain acts to block receiving inspiration regarding difficult questions or problems.

The study of the brain during sleep has clearly shown that taking logic out of the way when trying to answer difficult questions, which I would add includes questions about God, can help us see more clearly the answers and we are more open to inspiration. So, I would ask that all of you who focus on “logic” to reach conclusions about God to shut down the logical side of your brain from time to time and this will enable you to receive inspiration and greater knowledge. Please understand that I am not trying to say logic is bad, just that it can take us only so far in learning about things such as God.

 

[N4mddissent]

I know what you mean. Shutting down logic by dreaming has led me to all kinds of knowledge, like killing a giant toad requires the use of a ladle, it is possible to climb up a waterfall with special pitons, and people that act strange are usually infected with spider-like aliens which reproduce inside our bodies.

Imagination and dreaming can lead to inspiration in terms of how to approach a problem, but solving the problem and establishing that solution as verifiable truth requires a return to logic. A dream may inspire a scientist to consider a problem a certain way, but that solution must fall within the logical frames of our understanding about the world and be proven by critical, rational methodologies before it is accepted. So dreaming about god might be nice, but before accepting it, it must meet some rational criteria.

Also, while the program may have been accurate (I haven't seen it, I don't know) the Discovery Channel is not exactly known for its veracity.

 

[Diuretic]

If logic is out of the window then I'm going to get a Nobel Prize for something

But I think there's something to it, although N4 has accurately framed the issue. Maybe our conscious mind is too quick to dismiss "wacky" solutions to problems, we sort of censor ourselves. Insight comes from being a little more relaxed in thinking.

It's probably apocryphal but I still like the story about Watson and Crick hitting on the double-helix idea after quite a few pints down the pub. Wait a minute....that could be my second Nobel Prize on the way.

 

[midcan5]

I doubt there is a single 'logic' section of the brain or mind. And what exactly is logic, isn't it a process and didn't Godel prove all logical formulas were incomplete. Ever try to remember something and somewhere in the unconscious brain the answer suddenly appears. Often I have remembered things days later. Where does that come from? And is that logic at work or is it that biological 'computer' working in the background.

Dreams (sleep) are weird though, I have a recurrent dream in which I am doing some task or test and time or some other event holds me up causing an odd anxiety - and I'm not Jewish. But on waking I realize, ah, this was a dream only. Would my more immature mind have handled the dream as easily, I wonder today. I also have dreams that mix up realities, people or places and things. I often tell my wife on waking but I should write them down. If you want to remember your dreams or wake within them, drink lots of water before bed. Or is that getting just growing old. LOL

Another source of inspiration are drugs, liquor, lack of sleep, or even hunger. Try LSD sometime. Fever too can cause inspiration or is that hallucination. Do you have a link on where this is stated as I have never read that any single part of the mind turns off during sleep. Not that the brain does not rest, as it is the most active piece of our makeup. The mind is sure a complicated thing check out this video.

VS Ramachandran: The neurons that shaped civilization | Video on TED.com

 

[Christopher]

I know what you mean. Shutting down logic by dreaming has led me to all kinds of knowledge, like killing a giant toad requires the use of a ladle, it is possible to climb up a waterfall with special pitons, and people that act strange are usually infected with spider-like aliens which reproduce inside our bodies.

Imagination and dreaming can lead to inspiration in terms of how to approach a problem, but solving the problem and establishing that solution as verifiable truth requires a return to logic. A dream may inspire a scientist to consider a problem a certain way, but that solution must fall within the logical frames of our understanding about the world and be proven by critical, rational methodologies before it is accepted. So dreaming about god might be nice, but before accepting it, it must meet some rational criteria.

Also, while the program may have been accurate (I haven't seen it, I don't know) the Discovery Channel is not exactly known for its veracity.

Using sleep to solve real problems has been shown to work. Not just how to kill a giant toad, although I've had those dreams before too. I guess I am not really talking about dreaming about God, just that those who are going to seek God through logic alone will fail to find Him. I believe we need to shut down our logic for certain aspects of our life to gain different "knowledge", to help us receive inspiration. Such as exploring how we feel about someone.

Here are some other sources for you if Discovery Channel is not enough: BBC NEWS | Health | Problems are solved by sleeping
While You Were Sleeping - TIME
Quote from time verifying that the logical part of brain shuts down during REM:

Neuroimaging has told us a lot about the dreaming—or at least the REM—brain. Those areas that are active include the brain stem (responsible for basic functions like heartbeat regulation), the limbic system (which mediates emotions, learning and memory) and parts of the forebrain involved in processing sensory information. Shut down, meanwhile, are the bits responsible for the most sophisticated mental processes, such as logical and ordered thought.

 

[Christopher]

I doubt there is a single 'logic' section of the brain or mind. And what exactly is logic, isn't it a process and didn't Godel prove all logical formulas were incomplete. Ever try to remember something and somewhere in the unconscious brain the answer suddenly appears. Often I have remembered things days later. Where does that come from? And is that logic at work or is it that biological 'computer' working in the background.

Dreams (sleep) are weird though, I have a recurrent dream in which I am doing some task or test and time or some other event holds me up causing an odd anxiety - and I'm not Jewish. But on waking I realize, ah, this was a dream only. Would my more immature mind have handled the dream as easily, I wonder today. I also have dreams that mix up realities, people or places and things. I often tell my wife on waking but I should write them down. If you want to remember your dreams or wake within them, drink lots of water before bed. Or is that getting just growing old. LOL

Another source of inspiration are drugs, liquor, lack of sleep, or even hunger. Try LSD sometime. Fever too can cause inspiration or is that hallucination. Do you have a link on where this is stated as I have never read that any single part of the mind turns off during sleep. Not that the brain does not rest, as it is the most active piece of our makeup. The mind is sure a complicated thing check out this video.

VS Ramachandran: The neurons that shaped civilization | Video on TED.com

See the links in my last post. Interesting talk about neurons, thanks.

 

[N4mddissent]

I know what you mean. Shutting down logic by dreaming has led me to all kinds of knowledge, like killing a giant toad requires the use of a ladle, it is possible to climb up a waterfall with special pitons, and people that act strange are usually infected with spider-like aliens which reproduce inside our bodies.

Imagination and dreaming can lead to inspiration in terms of how to approach a problem, but solving the problem and establishing that solution as verifiable truth requires a return to logic. A dream may inspire a scientist to consider a problem a certain way, but that solution must fall within the logical frames of our understanding about the world and be proven by critical, rational methodologies before it is accepted. So dreaming about god might be nice, but before accepting it, it must meet some rational criteria.

Also, while the program may have been accurate (I haven't seen it, I don't know) the Discovery Channel is not exactly known for its veracity.

Using sleep to solve real problems has been shown to work. Not just how to kill a giant toad, although I've had those dreams before too. I guess I am not really talking about dreaming about God, just that those who are going to seek God through logic alone will fail to find Him. I believe we need to shut down our logic for certain aspects of our life to gain different "knowledge", to help us receive inspiration. Such as exploring how we feel about someone.

Here are some other sources for you if Discovery Channel is not enough: BBC NEWS | Health | Problems are solved by sleeping
While You Were Sleeping - TIME
Quote from time verifying that the logical part of brain shuts down during REM:

Neuroimaging has told us a lot about the dreaming—or at least the REM—brain. Those areas that are active include the brain stem (responsible for basic functions like heartbeat regulation), the limbic system (which mediates emotions, learning and memory) and parts of the forebrain involved in processing sensory information. Shut down, meanwhile, are the bits responsible for the most sophisticated mental processes, such as logical and ordered thought.

I understand what you are getting at and the problem is not that one fails to find god using logic alone, it's that one fails to find god using logic at all. You see, while it may be that solutions may occur to one while dreaming, those solutions must still be testable and applicable in our logical, waking world to be valid. So perhaps you could have some inspiration that you may call "god", but just like using a ladle to kill giant toads, if it cannot be applied in the rational world, then it remains a dream and not reality.

 

[Christopher]

I know what you mean. Shutting down logic by dreaming has led me to all kinds of knowledge, like killing a giant toad requires the use of a ladle, it is possible to climb up a waterfall with special pitons, and people that act strange are usually infected with spider-like aliens which reproduce inside our bodies.

Imagination and dreaming can lead to inspiration in terms of how to approach a problem, but solving the problem and establishing that solution as verifiable truth requires a return to logic. A dream may inspire a scientist to consider a problem a certain way, but that solution must fall within the logical frames of our understanding about the world and be proven by critical, rational methodologies before it is accepted. So dreaming about god might be nice, but before accepting it, it must meet some rational criteria.

Also, while the program may have been accurate (I haven't seen it, I don't know) the Discovery Channel is not exactly known for its veracity.

Using sleep to solve real problems has been shown to work. Not just how to kill a giant toad, although I've had those dreams before too. I guess I am not really talking about dreaming about God, just that those who are going to seek God through logic alone will fail to find Him. I believe we need to shut down our logic for certain aspects of our life to gain different "knowledge", to help us receive inspiration. Such as exploring how we feel about someone.

Here are some other sources for you if Discovery Channel is not enough: BBC NEWS | Health | Problems are solved by sleeping
While You Were Sleeping - TIME
Quote from time verifying that the logical part of brain shuts down during REM:

Neuroimaging has told us a lot about the dreaming—or at least the REM—brain. Those areas that are active include the brain stem (responsible for basic functions like heartbeat regulation), the limbic system (which mediates emotions, learning and memory) and parts of the forebrain involved in processing sensory information. Shut down, meanwhile, are the bits responsible for the most sophisticated mental processes, such as logical and ordered thought.

I understand what you are getting at and the problem is not that one fails to find god using logic alone, it's that one fails to find god using logic at all. You see, while it may be that solutions may occur to one while dreaming, those solutions must still be testable and applicable in our logical, waking world to be valid. So perhaps you could have some inspiration that you may call "god", but just like using a ladle to kill giant toads, if it cannot be applied in the rational world, then it remains a dream and not reality.

Let me explain some more my viewpoint, I do understand what you are saying. I have found that it takes shutting down logic, saying a prayer to God, asking if He is there, (which is very illogical) and allowing an answer to come through spiritual means and not physical means. This is similar to asking ourselves how we feel about someone, whether we love them or not and exploring our feelings to do this. That has worked for me and others I know.

There is just much more to our brain capacity than logic alone, which logically says to me that we can find “other knowledge” without the use of logic. We are not Vulcans, we are humans. The problem with focusing on logic for every or almost every aspect of our life is that we fail to see these other ways to gain personal knowledge. Also, the less we use our other capacities the more we lose their capability, just like a muscle that goes unused for too long.

For me, the greatest knowledge I have has not come through what we define as "logical" means. So, it only makes sense that a “knowledge” of God would be obtained similarly.

 

[Truthmatters]

God is how you define what comes through in that momment.

What if you took that momment and instead of defining what came through as GOD in your definition you doidnt even define it and jsut let it come through?

You see if you prepare yourself to say its god that came through then you really did not let go of the current LOGIC of what you would find.

Do this without assuming its GOD that comes through.

Then see what you get, that is called opening yourself to the universe and what it has to tell you.

God is one of the many boxes we put our mind in.

What if you had never heard of the concept of God?

How would YOU define these things if it were just up to your being and not your societal preconditioning to call it GOD?

I think every person has an intelligence they never or rarely tap into which processes the world in a manner that is too fast for most of us to recognise at a waking level.

Some call it God and the eastern religions call it something else.

Its all the same thing, but is all man in my humble opinion.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

I can get greater inspiration and knowledge from LSD than I can from any God.

 

[dilloduck]

God is how you define what comes through in that momment.

What if you took that momment and instead of defining what came through as GOD in your definition you doidnt even define it and jsut let it come through?

You see if you prepare yourself to say its god that came through then you really did not let go of the current LOGIC of what you would find.

Do this without assuming its GOD that comes through.

Then see what you get, that is called opening yourself to the universe and what it has to tell you.

God is one of the many boxes we put our mind in.

What if you had never heard of the concept of God?

How would YOU define these things if it were just up to your being and not your societal preconditioning to call it GOD?

I think every person has an intelligence they never or rarely tap into which processes the world in a manner that is too fast for most of us to recognise at a waking level.

Some call it God and the eastern religions call it something else.

Its all the same thing, but is all man in my humble opinion.

I suggest that you try it for about a year and report back your results !

 

[amrchaos]

Sometimes, Inspiration and logic work well together. How else do you think inventions are made? If it was a purely logical endeavor, we would have the automobile since the ancient Greeks.

Don't shun one for the other. Try to combine both for maximum efficiency!!(Of course, inspiration is like lightning. It comes when it wants to!)

 

[Avatar4321]

Let me explain some more my viewpoint, I do understand what you are saying. I have found that it takes shutting down logic, saying a prayer to God, asking if He is there, (which is very illogical) and allowing an answer to come through spiritual means and not physical means. This is similar to asking ourselves how we feel about someone, whether we love them or not and exploring our feelings to do this. That has worked for me and others I know.

There is just much more to our brain capacity than logic alone, which logically says to me that we can find “other knowledge” without the use of logic. We are not Vulcans, we are humans. The problem with focusing on logic for every or almost every aspect of our life is that we fail to see these other ways to gain personal knowledge. Also, the less we use our other capacities the more we lose their capability, just like a muscle that goes unused for too long.

For me, the greatest knowledge I have has not come through what we define as "logical" means. So, it only makes sense that a “knowledge” of God would be obtained similarly.

Funny, I've always thought that talking with God in an effort to get to know Him better was very logical. It seems very illogical to think that we will someone know with absolutely no effort to interact with Him. That we can deduce something without effort or any experience.

The problem with logic is that it assumes we know all the variables and are correct in our assumptions. Most people arent. So while logic can be useful in a number of intellectual activities, it is flawed in many cases.

 

[amrchaos]

Let me explain some more my viewpoint, I do understand what you are saying. I have found that it takes shutting down logic, saying a prayer to God, asking if He is there, (which is very illogical) and allowing an answer to come through spiritual means and not physical means. This is similar to asking ourselves how we feel about someone, whether we love them or not and exploring our feelings to do this. That has worked for me and others I know.

There is just much more to our brain capacity than logic alone, which logically says to me that we can find “other knowledge” without the use of logic. We are not Vulcans, we are humans. The problem with focusing on logic for every or almost every aspect of our life is that we fail to see these other ways to gain personal knowledge. Also, the less we use our other capacities the more we lose their capability, just like a muscle that goes unused for too long.

For me, the greatest knowledge I have has not come through what we define as "logical" means. So, it only makes sense that a “knowledge” of God would be obtained similarly.

Funny, I've always thought that talking with God in an effort to get to know Him better was very logical. It seems very illogical to think that we will someone know with absolutely no effort to interact with Him. That we can deduce something without effort or any experience.

The problem with logic is that it assumes we know all the variables and are correct in our assumptions. Most people arent. So while logic can be useful in a number of intellectual activities, it is flawed in many cases.

But Avatar, you do not need all the variables to reach a deduction.

What is needed are actually simple facts and definitions to begin a deductive process.

For instance, Do cars exist?
Most people will say "Of course cars exists"
But how would one prove it?

First, they must be able to identify a car.
The process of identification must be agreed on.
This is called defining a car.
Next, we have to conclude where a car may exist--they normally have tires, tires need roads--look for a road.

Of course one road may not be enough. There are old abandoned roads. So we need to look where lots of cars willl exist--A highway!!

Go to a highway, we see objects that look like a car(wait--that is a truck) and then we begin checking off the definitions.

The above is an empirical logic.
To do that with god is impossible because we have no measurement--i.e. we have to identify god with. understand

 

[rdean]

I watched a few years ago on the Discovery Channel a segment on the human body and heard some interesting information about our dreams and the activity of the brain during sleep (REM in particular). It used to be thought by scientists that our brain would shut down for the night when we sleep. This we now know is far from the truth. What is very interesting is that scientists have found that there is one part of the brain that does shut down while the rest of the brain is active: the logical part. Scientists on the show were interviewed and discussed how they have used their dreams to help them solve problems they could not solve using analytical reasoning during the day. Their dreams helped them “think outside the box” and give them inspiration to see the answers to their problems more clearly. It is almost as if the logical part of our brain acts to block receiving inspiration regarding difficult questions or problems.

The study of the brain during sleep has clearly shown that taking logic out of the way when trying to answer difficult questions, which I would add includes questions about God, can help us see more clearly the answers and we are more open to inspiration. So, I would ask that all of you who focus on “logic” to reach conclusions about God to shut down the logical side of your brain from time to time and this will enable you to receive inspiration and greater knowledge. Please understand that I am not trying to say logic is bad, just that it can take us only so far in learning about things such as God.

Take logic out of the way, depend on "dreams" and what you have left are "delusions".

 

[Kalam]

I posted this passage in a similar thread not too long ago:

"For the purpose of knowledge, then, the region of mystic experience is as real as any other region of human experience and cannot be ignored merely because it cannot be traced back to sense-perception. Nor is it possible to undo the spiritual value of the mystic state by by specifying the organic conditions which appear to determine it. Even if the postulate of modern psychology as to the inter-relation of body and mind is assumed to be true, it is illogical to discredit the value of the mystic state as a revelation of truth. Psychologically speaking, all states, whether their content is religious or non-religious, are organically determined. The scientific form of mind is as much organically determined as the religious. Our judgment as to the creation of genius is not at all determined or even remotely affected by what our psychologists may say regarding its organic conditions. A certain kind of temperament may be a necessary condition for a certain kind of receptivity; but the antecedent condition cannot be regarded as the whole truth about the character of what is received. The truth is that the organic causation of our mental states has nothing to do with the criteria by which we judge them to be superior or inferior in point of value..." - Sir Muhammad Iqbal, 1930​

 

[Avatar4321]

Take logic out of the way, depend on "dreams" and what you have left are "delusions".

Which, of course, is why you don't ever learn anything.

 

[Sublimating]

I watched a few years ago on the Discovery Channel a segment on the human body and heard some interesting information about our dreams and the activity of the brain during sleep (REM in particular). It used to be thought by scientists that our brain would shut down for the night when we sleep. This we now know is far from the truth. What is very interesting is that scientists have found that there is one part of the brain that does shut down while the rest of the brain is active: the logical part. Scientists on the show were interviewed and discussed how they have used their dreams to help them solve problems they could not solve using analytical reasoning during the day. Their dreams helped them “think outside the box” and give them inspiration to see the answers to their problems more clearly. It is almost as if the logical part of our brain acts to block receiving inspiration regarding difficult questions or problems.

The study of the brain during sleep has clearly shown that taking logic out of the way when trying to answer difficult questions, which I would add includes questions about God, can help us see more clearly the answers and we are more open to inspiration. So, I would ask that all of you who focus on “logic” to reach conclusions about God to shut down the logical side of your brain from time to time and this will enable you to receive inspiration and greater knowledge. Please understand that I am not trying to say logic is bad, just that it can take us only so far in learning about things such as God.

You have a great point here. I'm some what of a Star Trek fan. I've seen countless episodes where where Spock or his Vulcan equivalent solves the current crisis through the cool application of logic and just as many where logic not only fails but significantly impedes problem solving. This is often the case in life. If you disagree, try using logic to navigate through relationship problems....

 

[rdean]

Take logic out of the way, depend on "dreams" and what you have left are "delusions".

Which, of course, is why you don't ever learn anything.

I just seem that way to you because your mind is an empty shell. Similar to a withered nut.

 

[Christopher]

I can get greater inspiration and knowledge from LSD than I can from any God.

Have you ever sincerely tried to gain knowledge from God through prayer?