How Lucky Are Humans, and the World, for that Matter?

[Newtonian]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.

No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?

No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.

Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe.

I don’t understand what you are trying to get at. What are you trying to say?

See the article I linked to.

Bottom line - the fine tuning of our universe, star, magnetic field, ozone layer, and earth as a whole is due to God's love - not luck.

Would you like me to list in detail some of these examples of fine tuning?

Or were you referring to my reference to informational vs. statistical molecules?

That would be a chemistry tangent - for starters DNA would be useless for life if it was not precisely coded in a chemical language (cp. a book). Not to mention the need for a messenger molecule (RNA) to read this information and use it in one of the many processes required for life.

And that is just one of the many informational molecules required for life.

It boils down to the difference between life and death. One cause for death is the second law of thermodynamics and specifically the principle of entropy which causes informational molecules to decay to their most stable state - which is non-living matter. It doesn't go the other way - from death to life - without informational molecules in living things. See the many aspects of the origin of life by chemistry directed by information/intelligence vs. statistical molecules.

A simple example - in origin of life experiments many amino acids are produced by chance + an environment produced by intelligent creators (humans). But the primary product is formic acid - this fact is usually omitted by chemical evolutionists. And besides that many amino acids useless for life are produced - another fact covered over by chemical evolutionists (and popular media programs).

And, of course, chirality - but that is just left or right hand polarization of molecules.

Also usually ignored is the precise 3-d shape of molecules required for life - such as enzymes and receptor molecules.

Would you like me to post more detail on this?

If you presuppose the existence of a Divine Being in control of the universe, of course it follows that everything that happens is the result of Its actions. But if you make no such supposition, then everything that has happened is the result of chance, and/or is simply the way of the universe. The proof is that THIS is the universe which exists. That explanation makes just as much sense as yours, and it doesn't require the intervention of a supernatural being.

That’s really a great point. The argument from the Christian religious perspective is that life can’t come from non-life and that inevitably rolls into the question of abiogenesis. We know with absolute certainty

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Yes, you are ignoring the scientific evidence and you also have not explained what you believe caused all this 'fine tuning.'

On your off topic tangent - we only worship one God: Jehovah. That name means "He causes to be." So, how do you explain how all of these examples of fine tuning came to be?

I'm not ignoring scientific evidence, I'm requiring you to substantiate your claims that anything you supplied from the JW website requires supernatural intervention from a unique set of gods as opposed to natural mechanisms. When you write "we only worship one god", you are only one subset of one religion "worshipping" one version of the gods. I see your gods as no more demonstrated than the earlier gods your gods derived from.

I don't explain your claims to "fine tuning" of anything because your insistence that "fine tuning" is the product of your gods is absent any measurable standard which applies to your gods, also. Nothing about the workings of the universe or the laws of nature require your gods or anyone else's gods.

Fine tuning is not dependent on the cause. You are simply using an excuse to ignore the scientific evidence of fine tuning and you also fail to post any cause you think more likely.

For me, I believe in cause and effect (as in the primary definition of the Divine Name Jehovah) and the law of conservation of matter and energy.

What was the cause of fine tuning, and where did the energy come from that caused the energy first and then later the matter in our universe?

Or do you have the blind faith of some that claim the origin of our universe had no cause and was produced from nothing?

I will be offline until tomorrow probably - so you will once again have time to examine the evidence I have posted.

Or, you can continue to make excuses to ignore the scientific evidence.

 

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

 

[Newtonian]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

True.

Yup, we all know what was written like 4,000 years ago


58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses.

Good point. Plague is also a sign of the last days as in Luke chapter 21 and Revelation 6:8.

Revelation 6:8, NIV: "I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth."

Ya know the two books I never studied was Proverbs and Revelation.

Martin Luther didn't want revelations cannoized

Interesting. I used to be Lutheran. Would you like me to start a thread on the book of Revelation?

Not today, btw. Tonight begins our only holy day.

 

[Newtonian]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

 

[Hollie]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.

No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?

No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.

Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe.

I don’t understand what you are trying to get at. What are you trying to say?

See the article I linked to.

Bottom line - the fine tuning of our universe, star, magnetic field, ozone layer, and earth as a whole is due to God's love - not luck.

Would you like me to list in detail some of these examples of fine tuning?

Or were you referring to my reference to informational vs. statistical molecules?

That would be a chemistry tangent - for starters DNA would be useless for life if it was not precisely coded in a chemical language (cp. a book). Not to mention the need for a messenger molecule (RNA) to read this information and use it in one of the many processes required for life.

And that is just one of the many informational molecules required for life.

It boils down to the difference between life and death. One cause for death is the second law of thermodynamics and specifically the principle of entropy which causes informational molecules to decay to their most stable state - which is non-living matter. It doesn't go the other way - from death to life - without informational molecules in living things. See the many aspects of the origin of life by chemistry directed by information/intelligence vs. statistical molecules.

A simple example - in origin of life experiments many amino acids are produced by chance + an environment produced by intelligent creators (humans). But the primary product is formic acid - this fact is usually omitted by chemical evolutionists. And besides that many amino acids useless for life are produced - another fact covered over by chemical evolutionists (and popular media programs).

And, of course, chirality - but that is just left or right hand polarization of molecules.

Also usually ignored is the precise 3-d shape of molecules required for life - such as enzymes and receptor molecules.

Would you like me to post more detail on this?

If you presuppose the existence of a Divine Being in control of the universe, of course it follows that everything that happens is the result of Its actions. But if you make no such supposition, then everything that has happened is the result of chance, and/or is simply the way of the universe. The proof is that THIS is the universe which exists. That explanation makes just as much sense as yours, and it doesn't require the intervention of a supernatural being.

That’s really a great point. The argument from the Christian religious perspective is that life can’t come from non-life and that inevitably rolls into the question of abiogenesis. We know with absolute certainty

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Yes, you are ignoring the scientific evidence and you also have not explained what you believe caused all this 'fine tuning.'

On your off topic tangent - we only worship one God: Jehovah. That name means "He causes to be." So, how do you explain how all of these examples of fine tuning came to be?

I'm not ignoring scientific evidence, I'm requiring you to substantiate your claims that anything you supplied from the JW website requires supernatural intervention from a unique set of gods as opposed to natural mechanisms. When you write "we only worship one god", you are only one subset of one religion "worshipping" one version of the gods. I see your gods as no more demonstrated than the earlier gods your gods derived from.

I don't explain your claims to "fine tuning" of anything because your insistence that "fine tuning" is the product of your gods is absent any measurable standard which applies to your gods, also. Nothing about the workings of the universe or the laws of nature require your gods or anyone else's gods.

Fine tuning is not dependent on the cause. You are simply using an excuse to ignore the scientific evidence of fine tuning and you also fail to post any cause you think more likely.

For me, I believe in cause and effect (as in the primary definition of the Divine Name Jehovah) and the law of conservation of matter and energy.

What was the cause of fine tuning, and where did the energy come from that caused the energy first and then later the matter in our universe?

Or do you have the blind faith of some that claim the origin of our universe had no cause and was produced from nothing?

I will be offline until tomorrow probably - so you will once again have time to examine the evidence I have posted.

Or, you can continue to make excuses to ignore the scientific evidence.

You contradicted your own argument. You insist that “fine tuning” is the result of your gods; the cause. Yet you offer nothing to substantiate your claims to gods and nothing to demonstrate your gods are that cause.

 

[miketx]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

You believe that a tornado can blow through a wrecking yard and leave a fully functional 747 in its wake.

 

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

 

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

 

[Wyatt earp]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

You do know my God was the only one ridiculed and put to death, correct?

 

[Wyatt earp]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

Of course you don't, your the only God in the simple mind of yours

 

[Wyatt earp]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

Bwahaha you do know Newtons law of gravity is a debunked myth correct?

 

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

You do know my God was the only one ridiculed and put to death, correct?

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

You do know my God was the only one ridiculed and put to death, correct?

The other gods were much smarter?

 

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

Bwahaha you do know Newtons law of gravity is a debunked myth correct?

Correct. Gravity is an invention of those atheist evilutionists.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

You do know my God was the only one ridiculed and put to death, correct?

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

You do know my God was the only one ridiculed and put to death, correct?

The other gods were much smarter?

Which other Gods are you referring too?

 

[Wyatt earp]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

Bwahaha you do know Newtons law of gravity is a debunked myth correct?

Correct. Gravity is an invention of those atheist evilutionists.

You do know Newton believed in God, correct?

 

[BreezeWood]

Continuing:

3D - Earth's rotation speed. (1) will be if earth's rotation speed was slower. (2) will be if earth's rotation speed was faster - which would result in stronger winds, a stronger coriolis effect/force (one cause of hurricanes and tornados) and other harmful effects I will detail later if none of you beat me to it!

While I have only given minimal documentation on the previous points in my list (e.g. from Britannica which, thankfully, is NOT a peer reviewed journal) I will detail 3D(1) with much more documentation. I can, do the same with any other points on my list - I am just waiting for any of you to respond on any of the points in my list.

3D(1) If earth's rotation speed was slower. As you likely know, earth's rotation speed is once in 24 hours, the day to night temperature variance would be greater. I will detail this in future posts. For now a few details - first concerning the normal day night variance in continental climates (within continents rather than on coastlines)

3D(1)(a) - If the rotation speed was once every 48 hours (twice slower). In moderate continental climates the day to night temperature variance is about 20 degrees (lower in humid or cloudy conditions; greater in dry clear conditions). Currently on earth at the equanoxes (c. March 21, September 21) night and day are 12 hours long. This changes with seasons - more on that when I detail earth's orbital tilt summarized above (3C). Using this mean (average) variance, the temperature goes down just less than 2 degrees per hour (exactly this in certain clear dry nights).

Doubling the time (halving orbital speed) the longer nights would cause colder nights. Roughly (at 1.5 degrees down per hour) this would cause the morning temperature to drop around sunrise/twilight about 18 degrees from the mean (average) daily temperature in continental climates. Also the daily high temperatures would be about 18 degrees higher than the mean temperature in such locations.

So, for example, if the mean was 50 degrees the nighttime low would increase from the current normal 38 to 48 degrees (no frost) to c. 32 degrees which would at least be extreme frost and at most a hard freeze. This would greatly reduce the growing season for farmers and would lower the amount of food that could be grown on the planet.

On the other hand, a summer mean of 78 degrees (normal in NYC in mid-summer) would produce a high temperature during the daytime of 96 degrees on average. While this is not catastrophic, it is certainly not comfortable for us humans. But that is just slowing the orbital speed to once every 48 hours - further slowing becomes more dangerous to life on earth, as I will detail in future post - next post 72 hour rotation speed [3D(1)(b)]:

I am just waiting for any of you to respond on any of the points in my list.

where is the atmosphere to allow beings to search the universe as was the case for the pioneers to travel to distant lands ...

your intoxication newton would be better deserved for the universe than a single planet ...

or just our solar system ....

 

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

Of course you don't, your the only God in the simple mind of yours

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

You do know my God was the only one ridiculed and put to death, correct?

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

“As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.”

Your gods must subscribe to that “tough love” policy. They indiscriminately kill people with floods, disease, fires, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc., (fine tuning, remember), because....they love you

Super!

You do know my God was the only one ridiculed and put to death, correct?

The other gods were much smarter?

Which other Gods are you referring too?

All the other gods.

 

[Hollie]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

Bwahaha you do know Newtons law of gravity is a debunked myth correct?

Correct. Gravity is an invention of those atheist evilutionists.

You do know Newton believed in God, correct?

Or, the church might have loped his head off.

 

[BreezeWood]

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Their is no Gods, just one.

The next fine tuning point #s are from our article here:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note the following point #'s 1-4 are points 3 - 6 in my list of fine tuning of the earth:

[Note: the SETI search for earthlike planets only considers a couple of the fine tuned properties for a planet to have a surface environment conducive to life - none of these planets would actually allow life as we know it to survive]

"1. Earth’s location in the Milky Way galaxy and the solar system, as well as the planet’s orbit, tilt, rotational speed, and moon

2. A magnetic field and atmosphere that serve as a dual shield

3. An abundance of water

4. Natural cycles that replenish and cleanse the biosphere"

So, #1 is #3 in my list:

3A - Earth's location in Milky Way galaxy:

The Living Planet — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"

Could the earth be located in a better position to host life?

When you write down your address, what do you include? You might put in your country, city, and street. By way of comparison, let’s call the Milky Way galaxy earth’s “country,” the solar system—that is, the sun and its planets—earth’s “city,” and earth’s orbit within the solar system earth’s “street.” Thanks to advances in astronomy and physics, scientists have gained deep insights into the merits of our special spot in the universe.

To begin with, our “city,” or solar system, is located in the ideal region of the Milky Way galaxy—not too close to the center and not too far from it. This “habitable zone,” as scientists call it, contains just the right concentrations of the chemical elements needed to support life. Farther out, those elements are too scarce; farther in, the neighborhood is too dangerous because of the greater abundance of potentially lethal radiation and other factors. “We live in prime real estate,” says Scientific American magazine.1"

Reference 1 -

Bibliography — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

1. Scientific American, Special Issue 2008 entitled “Majestic Universe,” p. 11.

It’s entirely predictable that the JW’s would use the falsely labeled “fine tuning” argument to prove their gods but the chaos and violence of the universe doesn’t support a “fine tuning” claim and nothing about the universe supports any notions of gods.

Chaos?

I'm not sure what you are referring to - perhaps you could clarify.

One example of fine-tuned violence is Supernovas. Without supernovas the only elements that would have come into existence would have been Lithium and Hydrogen to Helium (which is inert), You cannot have life as we know it with just those elements present in the universe.

Further, no stars would have even existed in our universe without the fine tuned expansion rate of our universe (involving gravity, dark energy, and the cause of the labelled "big bang.").

The fine tuned ratios of the 4 force of physics also were required. (electromagnetic, gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force).

The Bible simplifies this in Job 38:33 which refers to the laws governing our universe. Far from chaos, the universe obeys laws and also has fine tuned properties. I will continue my list later - offline for awhile.

You all; shelter in ;place! You can't catch viruses ln the internet!

Supernova are good examples of chaos as they obliterate nearby (in galactic terms), objects. Galaxies collide and black holes swallow regions of space, comets bombard planets and cosmic radiation can destroy biological life.

So I’m not seeing the “fine tuning” you claim your gods have performed.

Maybe if you first offered some evidence for your gods, you could then offer some evidence they “fine tuned” something.

Their is no Gods, just one


Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Other religions disagree about the number and efficacy of the gods.

Obviously, they're right and you're wrong.

So, what do you believe is the cause? Luck?

As for me, I believe the fine tuning is evidence of love for mankind.

Love not luck.

I have no need for belief or faith in the workings of the natural world. The universe operates on physical laws we largely understand and are learning about as science explores. Not surprisingly, it is not the religious institutions doing research. Why would they? We know that depending upon your particular religious ideology; you do predefine a number of conclusions. This is borne out by the "conclusive" nature of religionists that there religion is correct and others’, not. As long as the individual's "objectivity" remains biased towards a predisposed conclusion (i.e., that a faith in a god goes unquestioned), one cannot ever view the issue in a nonpartisan way. Evidence really is secondary to this paradigm because the nature of faith nullifies actual proofs-- a convenient loophole of theistic belief but one endemic to all of them.

All of the claims to magic and supernaturalism are nothing but pure assertion by the theist. There is no requirement for the universe to have a "creator" -- that is something you assert with no evidence based upon your bias to believe in a peculiar, sectarian version of gods. You're certainly entitled to do that, but it is not any kind of an argument. It is purely an assertion and there are equally-"authoritative" assertions by other religious entities that are just as "viable" as yours. The only standard by which we can discern the truth is evidence, so please produce evidence to support A) your assertion and B) your assertion is true but the Greek Pantheon one for instance is not.

Bwahaha you do know Newtons law of gravity is a debunked myth correct?

Correct. Gravity is an invention of those atheist evilutionists.

You do know Newton believed in God, correct?

You do know Newton believed in God, correct?

could it have been they were cursed to death - by a juvenile ...

 

[Hollie]

That we're able to exist even now, at this instant that I type this.

Based on the belief of atheists, this earth, has been in existence for millions, and millions of years now, starting w/of course, the Big Bang.

That there's all types of gargantuan stars, suns, meteors, planets etc, all around the universe swirling around and that could ultimately, at one point smash in to us.

Remember, that's what they claimed happened to make the dinosaurs go extinct and caused the Ice Age. A giant meteor that all but destroyed all life on earth...in an instant.

So that was millions of years ago, aren't we due for another one right about now?

What's stopping us from being destroyed by a super meteor at any point? And how do you feel w/the knowledge that this can happen at any instant?

I'd like to hear from our resident atheists on this.

What are your thoughts?

It was an inevitability that we exist. No luck about it.

No, it wasn't inevitable. It was chance. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out by a meteor 65 million years ago, we wouldn't exist. But we DO exist. And that's a good thing, right?

No. It is inevitable that intelligence will arise. Since the very beginning energy has complexified and has not ceased. In fact, SETI searches for intelligent life for this very reason. They literally expect to find it because the nature of the universe is to create beings that know and create.

Informational molecules do not arise by chance - only statistical molecules arise by chance - and even they are due to the fine tuning of our universe.

I don’t understand what you are trying to get at. What are you trying to say?

See the article I linked to.

Bottom line - the fine tuning of our universe, star, magnetic field, ozone layer, and earth as a whole is due to God's love - not luck.

Would you like me to list in detail some of these examples of fine tuning?

Or were you referring to my reference to informational vs. statistical molecules?

That would be a chemistry tangent - for starters DNA would be useless for life if it was not precisely coded in a chemical language (cp. a book). Not to mention the need for a messenger molecule (RNA) to read this information and use it in one of the many processes required for life.

And that is just one of the many informational molecules required for life.

It boils down to the difference between life and death. One cause for death is the second law of thermodynamics and specifically the principle of entropy which causes informational molecules to decay to their most stable state - which is non-living matter. It doesn't go the other way - from death to life - without informational molecules in living things. See the many aspects of the origin of life by chemistry directed by information/intelligence vs. statistical molecules.

A simple example - in origin of life experiments many amino acids are produced by chance + an environment produced by intelligent creators (humans). But the primary product is formic acid - this fact is usually omitted by chemical evolutionists. And besides that many amino acids useless for life are produced - another fact covered over by chemical evolutionists (and popular media programs).

And, of course, chirality - but that is just left or right hand polarization of molecules.

Also usually ignored is the precise 3-d shape of molecules required for life - such as enzymes and receptor molecules.

Would you like me to post more detail on this?

If you presuppose the existence of a Divine Being in control of the universe, of course it follows that everything that happens is the result of Its actions. But if you make no such supposition, then everything that has happened is the result of chance, and/or is simply the way of the universe. The proof is that THIS is the universe which exists. That explanation makes just as much sense as yours, and it doesn't require the intervention of a supernatural being.

That’s really a great point. The argument from the Christian religious perspective is that life can’t come from non-life and that inevitably rolls into the question of abiogenesis. We know with absolute certainty

I’m not ignoring the “scientific evidence” you’re posting. I’m challenging you to identify how any of it supports your claims to partisan gods.

The majority of your “scientific evidence” is boilerplate from any of the fundamentalist Christian ministries. Creationists like to use to "support" their claims. Aren't selective quoting and argumentum ad verecundiam fun?

The existence of various parameters in nature being in such a state to produce life is well known among the physics community, but surely you realize (although refuse to accept), that there is a world of difference between natural forces and "intelligent design", and that the latter does not logically follow from the former?

The intelligent design / creationist argument simply states that “if things were different, things would be different”. Well, yeah. If today was Tuesday, it wouldn’t be Monday.

Even if we acknowledge that parameters are godly “fine-tuned”, why should anyone accept that it is your gods are the fine tuners? Your gods are only three assertions of the gods so you might want to present evidence for your gods before insisting that your gods are the only fine tuning gods.

The universe could fine-tune itself. Self-organizing critical systems (Ecosystem as self-organizing critical systems) are capable of fine-tuning all by themselves, following only a simple set of physical laws -- thus making it likely that the parameters are "fine-tuned" the way we see them by purely natural mechanisms.

Yes, you are ignoring the scientific evidence and you also have not explained what you believe caused all this 'fine tuning.'

On your off topic tangent - we only worship one God: Jehovah. That name means "He causes to be." So, how do you explain how all of these examples of fine tuning came to be?

I'm not ignoring scientific evidence, I'm requiring you to substantiate your claims that anything you supplied from the JW website requires supernatural intervention from a unique set of gods as opposed to natural mechanisms. When you write "we only worship one god", you are only one subset of one religion "worshipping" one version of the gods. I see your gods as no more demonstrated than the earlier gods your gods derived from.

I don't explain your claims to "fine tuning" of anything because your insistence that "fine tuning" is the product of your gods is absent any measurable standard which applies to your gods, also. Nothing about the workings of the universe or the laws of nature require your gods or anyone else's gods.

Fine tuning is not dependent on the cause. You are simply using an excuse to ignore the scientific evidence of fine tuning and you also fail to post any cause you think more likely.

For me, I believe in cause and effect (as in the primary definition of the Divine Name Jehovah) and the law of conservation of matter and energy.

What was the cause of fine tuning, and where did the energy come from that caused the energy first and then later the matter in our universe?

Or do you have the blind faith of some that claim the origin of our universe had no cause and was produced from nothing?

I will be offline until tomorrow probably - so you will once again have time to examine the evidence I have posted.

Or, you can continue to make excuses to ignore the scientific evidence.

I understand why you insist on promoting the “fine tuning” meme but we still have nothing to support your claim that anything is “fine tuned” and still nothing that connects your gods to the existence of any fine tuned universe.

Once again, to support your “fine tuned” position for supernatural intervention you need to:

1) provide credible evidence for one or more of your gawds, and then,

2) provide credible evidence that one or more of your gawds had direct involvement with the implementation of the “fine tuning that explains the diversity of biological life on the planet.

When will you provide such evidence?

Unfortunately for the religions, there is an inherent hopelessness of ID/creationism as a means to explain anything. Firstly, it has been demonstrated that there is nothing in ID/ creationism that can be used as a reliable or even useful way to detect ‘super-magical design’. Secondly, nothing in ID/creationism can exclude Darwinian evolution ie:, natural selection as a mechanism even when designer gods are presumed as the cause of existence. Thirdly ID/creationism has failed as a mechanism to make predictions based upon the extant theory (as science does) leaving ID/creationism to be useful only as a trivial, non-scientific claim.