Historical perspective

ErikViking

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This was written 1543. I wonder what the world would have looked like if it had been carried through?

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the muslims? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blaspemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Muslims. With prayer and the fear of God we must pratice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengenance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their mosques or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly - and I myself was unaware of it - will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Muslims, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.


Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their mosques. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.


Third, I advise that all their prayer books and writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)


Fourth, I advise that their imams be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor muslims captive with the saying of Moses (Deuternomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Thoses villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the righ to teach.


Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the muslims. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).


Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a muslim is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.
 

Nienna

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Wow! That really gets the imagination going!

I know the comments that are sure to come, about the Muslims personal freedoms, etc. But, of course, in 1543, individual freedom was not a holy concept as it is today.

I wonder if any of this actually was put into practice, or if it was just ideas on paper. I wonder how far it would have gone toward eradicating the Muslim faith.
 

Kagom

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Wow! That really gets the imagination going!

I know the comments that are sure to come, about the Muslims personal freedoms, etc. But, of course, in 1543, individual freedom was not a holy concept as it is today.

I wonder if any of this actually was put into practice, or if it was just ideas on paper. I wonder how far it would have gone toward eradicating the Muslim faith.
I'm willing to bet it was attempted and maybe pulled off. Dunno, I'd have to research that.
 
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ErikViking

ErikViking

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Actually, I have to beg you to forgive me. I altered the names of the religions and added some creative verses, it is actually a text - only a few weeks old written by some Imam in a western country:

"
What shall we Muslims do with this rejected and condemned people, the christians? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming.
"

The point is that the radical religous hate looks the same, doesn't it? Now, several hundered years ago, christians, muslims, it doesn't matter. Those opinions has nothing with religion to do, since it wasn't clear wether it was a cristian or muslim message in the first place. (It didn't look wrong) I hope you don't get upset for the deception, but I hoped to make a point.

Personally I will be a bit cautious when reading stuff like this. Again sorry.
 

dilloduck

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Actually, I have to beg you to forgive me. I altered the names of the religions and added some creative verses, it is actually a text - only a few weeks old written by some Imam in a western country:

"
What shall we Muslims do with this rejected and condemned people, the christians? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming.
"

The point is that the radical religous hate looks the same, doesn't it? Now, several hundered years ago, christians, muslims, it doesn't matter. Those opinions has nothing with religion to do, since it wasn't clear wether it was a cristian or muslim message in the first place. (It didn't look wrong) I hope you don't get upset for the deception, but I hoped to make a point.

Personally I will be a bit cautious when reading stuff like this. Again sorry.
No need to apologize. Hate IS the same all over. It's evil and hateful acts should be not only condemned but stopped. In the present, Islam is the religion of evil acts. They need to be stopped--not understood nor compared to what happened in the past.
 

Kagom

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No need to apologize. Hate IS the same all over. It's evil and hateful acts should be not only condemned but stopped. In the present, Islam is the religion of evil acts. They need to be stopped--not understood nor compared to what happened in the past.
Understand them and you can find a way to defeat them.
 
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ErikViking

ErikViking

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No need to apologize. Hate IS the same all over. It's evil and hateful acts should be not only condemned but stopped. In the present, Islam is the religion of evil acts. They need to be stopped--not understood nor compared to what happened in the past.
That was in my eyes a very good answer. What can be learned from history is that this hate repeat itself. Sometimes it wins, sometimes it looses. At our time this hate is primary coming from radical muslims. We must not make their hate ours, or we will soon start to write texts like that ourselfs.
 

Nienna

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Understand them and you can find a way to defeat them.
I think he meant "understand" them, not understand them. In other words, don't make excuses as to why they are not REALLY bad people or why their religion isn't REALLY violent.
 

Kagom

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I think he meant "understand" them, not understand them. In other words, don't make excuses as to why they are not REALLY bad people or why their religion isn't REALLY violent.
Oh, well, the word "understand" is so easy to misconstrue and undestand :p
 
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ErikViking

ErikViking

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I think he meant "understand" them, not understand them. In other words, don't make excuses as to why they are not REALLY bad people or why their religion isn't REALLY violent.
But still you were ready to understand without "'s as long you believed it was a christian message? I am not beyond that myself, I'm just a person too, but will try not to accept speech of pure hate / fear no matter who the sender might be.

That is not a defence for Islam, I just don't want to become like them.
 

Nienna

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But still you were ready to understand without "'s as long you believed it was a christian message? I am not beyond that myself, I'm just a person too, but will try not to accept speech of pure hate / fear no matter who the sender might be.

That is not a defence for Islam, I just don't want to become like them.
I did not embrace the message the first time I posted. I simply stated that it got the imagination going about what the world would be like today if that had happened in 1543.
 
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ErikViking

ErikViking

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I did not embrace the message the first time I posted. I simply stated that it got the imagination going about what the world would be like today if that had happened in 1543.
Okay, maybe you didn't embrace it... on the other hand you didn't condemn it either. (Put into history like that, things were different as you said, so why condemn somthing so old?)

But still, it doesn't really matter who writes this stuff anyway. It isn't typical of any general religion in an historical perspective.

EDIT:
Hey! Just noticed, happy birthday! Got what you wanted?
 

dilloduck

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Understand them and you can find a way to defeat them.
Allow me to clarify-----we understand all we need to know about them--there is evil in the world----
We can tolerate it
deny it
continually highlight it
hope God does something about it
hope someone else does something about it
change it
or use ANY method to stop it

If you even care about evil, pick one that you think will work and I'll pick mine.
 

Nienna

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Okay, maybe you didn't embrace it... on the other hand you didn't condemn it either. (Put into history like that, things were different as you said, so why condemn somthing so old?)

But still, it doesn't really matter who writes this stuff anyway. It isn't typical of any general religion in an historical perspective.

EDIT:
Hey! Just noticed, happy birthday! Got what you wanted?
lol! Still a few hours before my birthday here in the States. But thank you! You were the first one to wish me a happy day. :D

Followers of Christianity know (or should know) that it is not God's way to attempt to force people to believe in Him or accept the faith. God draws people to Him through His love for them. I would not advocate any of these measures for peaceful followers of ANY religion.

However, the actions and beliefs of many Muslims are not peaceful. Restricting their activities may be necessary to preserve a free civilization.
 

dilloduck

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lol! Still a few hours before my birthday here in the States. But thank you! You were the first one to wish me a happy day. :D

Followers of Christianity know (or should know) that it is not God's way to attempt to force people to believe in Him or accept the faith. God draws people to Him through His love for them. I would not advocate any of these measures for peaceful followers of ANY religion.

However, the actions and beliefs of many Muslims are not peaceful. Restricting their activities may be necessary to preserve a free civilization.
Whoa dudette ! Restricting thier activities ???? That's pretty close to mean coming from you ! :funnyface
 

Nienna

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Whoa dudette ! Restricting thier activities ???? That's pretty close to mean coming from you ! :funnyface
I can give "time outs" with the best of 'em... If those Muslims can't behave, ground them! And if they still can't behave, we may have to move on to corporal punishment!

;)
 
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ErikViking

ErikViking

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lol! Still a few hours before my birthday here in the States. But thank you! You were the first one to wish me a happy day. :D
Well, now it is the right date for you too, you could have had two birthdays!


I would not advocate any of these measures for peaceful followers of ANY religion.
This is exactly my point! It isn't the underlying religion that makes the difference, not over time (just as the text exampel showed) but the humans behind it. They are always the same: Some radicals, some opressed, some just trying to make the days go by.
So I wouldn't stick the label "evil" on muslims in general, not more than I would stick "good" to christians.

However, the actions and beliefs of many Muslims are not peaceful. Restricting their activities may be necessary to preserve a free civilization.
This is not my point, but maybe even more important, this is todays reallity. In my eyes, the muslims (in general) must have their dignity left, their status as human fellow beings and for a christian - the status of gods children intact. Tampering with that will cause pointless suffering to a great number of people.

This isn't trustworthy: "Since you are a muslim you must proove to me that you are good, meanwhile I will hate and fear you."
 

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