‘Historic Palestine’ – A Misleading Anachronism

Muslims gave them Refuge because the Jews HAD to leave Europe?? It’s funny that all we see on the board is that the Jews are accusing those who object to Zionism as Antisemitism . Which is it??
Still doesn’t explain how the Jews “ betrayed “ them. 🥱🇮🇱
Accusing people who criticise Israel of antisemitism which includes accusing Jews of same is something Israel has come up with, with the hope of stopping criticism. I don't get why you connect the two things. Jews were made to leave Spain. Muslims and the ME gave them refuge. The person was asking what Jews had ever done that betrayed Muslims. I suggested that was one thing. They also were happy with people when they retired moving there particularly to Jerusalem. That you don't understand the meaning of betrayal is not my problem. Muslims offered them safety and protection. They betrayed it when they decided to reply to that by taking over their land. It was when the Zionists let the cat out of the bag that their intention was to take all of Palestine and make it into a Jewish State that the Zionists found the Muslims less than friendly.
 
Accusing people who criticise Israel of antisemitism which includes accusing Jews of same is something Israel has come up with, with the hope of stopping criticism/ I don't get why you connect the two things. Jews were made to leave Spain. Muslims and the ME gave them refuge. The person was asking what Muslims had ever done that betrayed Muslims. I suggested that was one thing. They also were happy with people when they retired moving their particularly to Jerusalem. That you don't understand the meaning of betrayed is not my problem. Muslims offered them safety and protection. They betrayed it when they decided to reply to that by taking over their land. It was when the Zionists let the cat out of the bag that their intention was to take all of Palestine and make it into a Jewish State that the Zionists found the Muslims less than friendly.
You keep going off the topic of the thread.

You cannot find any history of the Palestinians going back 10,000 years just own up to it.

Go to the right threads to discuss what you seem to insist on discussing.
 
Edit: Oh found a different headline for you. Perhaps you will prefer this one


Israel will never go back to 67 Borders which were part of Jordan or be deprived of their Religious Sites. You obviously missed the part where they condemned the Palestinians for indiscriminate firing of Rockets into Israel 🇮🇱
 
Israel will never go back to 67 Borders which were part of Jordan or be deprived of their Religious Sites. You obviously missed the part where they condemned the Palestinians for indiscriminate firing of Rockets into Israel 🇮🇱
Don't give them rope.

I am really waiting for the archeological and historical, from other peoples, findings about the Ancient Palestinians.
 
Accusing people who criticise Israel of antisemitism which includes accusing Jews of same is something Israel has come up with, with the hope of stopping criticism. I don't get why you connect the two things. Jews were made to leave Spain. Muslims and the ME gave them refuge. The person was asking what Jews had ever done that betrayed Muslims. I suggested that was one thing. They also were happy with people when they retired moving there particularly to Jerusalem. That you don't understand the meaning of betrayal is not my problem. Muslims offered them safety and protection. They betrayed it when they decided to reply to that by taking over their land. It was when the Zionists let the cat out of the bag that their intention was to take all of Palestine and make it into a Jewish State that the Zionists found the Muslims less than friendly.
Nice try but the Muslims did not give them refuge. Many Converted to Christianity, killed, or went throughout Europe. You accuse the Jews . You say accusing people of AntiSemitism is a excuse the Jewish people use yet your post admits that there is way before 1948. Please tell us when the Zionists decided to take over their land 🇮🇱
 
Nice try but the Muslims did not give them refuge. Many Converted to Christianity, killed, or went throughout Europe. You accuse the Jews . You say accusing people of AntiSemitism is a excuse the Jewish people use yet your post admits that there is way before 1948. Please tell us when the Zionists decided to take over their land 🇮🇱
Not the right thread. Please.
 
Israel will never go back to 67 Borders which were part of Jordan or be deprived of their Religious Sites. You obviously missed the part where they condemned the Palestinians for indiscriminate firing of Rockets into Israel 🇮🇱
and as the UN says correctly Israel is primarily responsible for the violence in the area and commits the most violence also.

Israel's occupation and discrimination against Palestinians are the main causes of the endless cycles of violence, UN investigators said Tuesday, prompting angry Israeli protests.

A high-level team of investigators, appointed last year by the United Nations Human Rights Council to probe "all underlying root causes" in the decades-long conflict, pointed the finger squarely at Israel.

"Ending the occupation of lands by Israel... remains essential in ending the persistent cycles of violence," they said in a report, decrying ample evidence that Israel has "no intention" of doing so.


If you want an end to violence, start getting your own house in order. It is the one causing the majority of problems.
 
No 'nice try' just saying the truth.

but the Muslims did not give them refuge.
Yes they did. You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

Many Converted to Christianity, killed, or went throughout Europe.


How do you get that. I pointed out that the majority of Paslestinians are believed to genetically come from ancient jews.

You accuse the Jews . You say accusing people of AntiSemitism is a excuse the Jewish people use yet your post admits that there is way before 1948. Please tell us when the Zionists decided to take over their land 🇮🇱

What on earth are you talking about now. I will tell you what is antisemitism. Antisemitism is calling all the actions of Israel the actions of Jews. That is blaming all Jews for the actions of Israel. This is not true and is stereotyping all Jews, hence antisemitism.
 
and as the UN says correctly Israel is primarily responsible for the violence in the area and commits the most violence also.




If you want an end to violence, start getting your own house in order. It is the one causing the majority of problems.
When Israel left Gaza in 2005 the Rockets actually increased. Abbas has made it clear that he is not going to accept anything but the borders which weren’t accepted in the first place, relinquish ALL of E Jerusalem which includes Israel religious sites, they have already FORMALLY stated that the Jews will Not have access to the Western Wall and “ Right of Return “ which would put a end to the Jewish State. You and others lack the intelligence to understand this will never happen 🇮🇱
 
Sargon 2 settled four Arab tribes in Samaria around 700 BC.

Arabs didn‘t exist.
 
Herodotus was Greek.

Doesn't give you the right to steal more land than you were given.

Does explain why the Israelis raided Lebanon for topsoil per Moishe Dayan.
Whose land?
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The Jews betrayed the Muslims and violated treaties. They also tried to hog a couple of Oases. I think most left and went back to Jericho.
If not for Jews, Muslims wouldn‘t even exist. Without the Bible, the Koran would be half its size.
 
Did Israel “occupy” Palestine?

As with most issues related to this thorny topic this is, at best, a half truth. Please read this entirely to the end.

Below you are three maps.

Map 1 depicts Ottoman Turkish rule over the area today known as Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip in the South.
Map 2 depicts the ‘British Mandate of Palestine’, instituted after Ottoman Turkey was defeated, and collapsed after WWI.
Map 3 depicts only the issue of when the Arabs (today known as Palestinians) gained political control over this land.

By posting these maps I hope to address this abiding but inaccurate idea that Israel has “occupied Palestine” since 1948.

As the first two maps show, in modern history this area was colonised by the Ottoman Turks, and then by the British Mandate. There was no “state of Palestine” in this area, and in fact there never has been - go as far back as you like. In the Ottoman Empire (Map 1), the entire area north of Jerusalem was known as the Province of Beirut (Sidon) and Jerusalem to the South was known as the Mutasarriflik (authority) of Jerusalem. Then, after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI, the British Mandate (Map 2) clearly shows a division on either side of the River Jordan.

As the key in Map 2 indicates, everything to the left of the River Jordan (known today as the West Bank of the River Jordan) was an area “remaining for Jewish National Home”, and everything to the right of the river (marked Transjordan) was “separated and closed to Jewish settlement”, as is written on the map. There was no “state of Palestine” for Jews to “occupy” at this stage. This was land captured after WWI from a colonial empire (Turks), by a colonial empire (the Brits). It was then administered by the British according tho the 1918 Anglo-French Modus Vivendi, and demarcated by the British as a homeland for the Jewish people, in line with the Balfour Declaration 1917.

It took until 1948 for Israel to be created on the West Bank of the River Jordan, as a homeland for Jews after the Holocaust. What occurred was a typical British colonial partition plan, just like the 1947 partition of India and Pakistan (which was created in exactly the same fashion, as a homeland for Muslims). A consequence of this partition was population expulsions from both sides of the River Jordan (Jews and Arabs) and mass migration according to the new political reality. I am not denying injustices occurred at this stage, just as happened with the partition of India and Pakistan.

Another consequence was that one area remained in dispute (the West bank of the River Jordan), just as Kashmir remains till this day in dispute between India and Pakistan. It is important to remember that at this time in history there still was no, and never had been, a “state of Palestine” just as today there is no internationally recognised “state of Kashmir”, and never has been in that sense.
Other new states *were* created in the region by British colonialism however, including Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. All these states were populated primarily by Levantine Arabs. Interestingly, 60% of Jordan today is of the Palestinian-Arab group and only 40% of Jordan is Bedouin Arab (the difference between those two groups is not even as pronounced as the difference between the English and Scots).

Why this is relevant is explained by Map 3. Look to the 1967 image in Map 3 (forgive the bad colouring) it depicts Jordan as having control over the West Bank of the River Jordan (Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip in the South). There still was no “state of Palestine”. In 1967 Egypt, Jordan and Syria attacked Israel and lost, terribly, in six days. It was only after this war that Israel gained control of the West Bank of the River Jordan, and the Gaza Strip. She has secured the West Bank ever since, and Gaza was given to Palestinian-Arabs unilaterally by Israeli PM Ariel Sharon in 2005, before it succumbed to the terrorist group Hamas.

This is where Map 3 becomes very relevant. Because as Map 3 depicts, the first time in history a group of Arabs known through their entirely modern colonial identity (inseparable from the British Mandate) calling themselves Palestinians, gained any form of political control over this land (even though, as stated, 60% of Jordan is Palestinian too, including the Queen of Jordan). And it was Israel that ceded this political control to the Arabs of the West Bank of the River Jordan (today known as Palestinians) in 1994, due to the Oslo Accords.

Before Oslo, Arabs from the West Bank of the River Jordan (today known as Palestinians) had never had political control of this land. The modern identity of Palestinian became a national identity in the 1960s, primarily through Yasser Arafat’s Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO), and especially after the Arab Kingdom of Jordan lost control of the West Bank to Israel. Before this, the ‘people’ or nation in this area were Levantine Arabs. These Levantine Arabs were granted three other states by the British (Syria, Jordan and Lebanon), as well as many other Arab states in the region. Whereas Jews only have one state (Israel).

All four of these states were arbitrarily created by the British and French after WWI, not just Israel. And mass-migration occurred in both directions, not just Arabs out of Israel, but Jews out of Arab lands too. All four involved expulsions (primarily of Jews going one way and Arabs going the other). But only one of these states gave Palestinian-Arabs citizenship (20% of Israel today is Arab). The three Arab states created by Britain (and in fact all other modern Arab states) are yet to provide naturalisation schemes and citizenship by birth right to the masses of Palestinian-Arabs stranded in their territories till this day. One can observe this in the refugee camps (effectively now townships) in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. These Palestinian-Arabs are pointedly and consistently refused citizenship by their host Arab states. Meanwhile, 20% of Israel’s citizens are Arabs, they sit in the Knesset and they partake in almost all Israeli affairs.


Summary:
I am *not* opposing the creation of a state of Palestine (though I do remain open also to other solutions for the Palestinian-Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, that re-involve Jordan and Egypt respectively, if this breaks the deadlock). My point, simply put, is this: when the evolution of the area is properly considered, and not used to score cheap political points or indeed for Europe to grind her ancient antisemitic axe, the truth is that this is a land dispute born of colonialism, no different to Kashmir. It is not a typical “occupation” by one state over another, and it is misleading to frame the conversation in terms of a typical “occupation”, and then to use this emotive basis as a launch pad for “debate”.

The “state of Palestine” has never existed. What has happened is that a land dispute over a colonial partition has dragged on. It is also very clear that too much media focus is placed on Israel’s behaviour, and hardly any on the surrounding Arab dictatorships or absolute monarchies who have failed Palestinian-Arabs over and again. Nor is much of a media focus placed on the Palestinian Authority, which has consistently rejected every formal peace offer made, to a point where they no longer have anything to play for, nothing to negotiate and have become such an embarrassment that even Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Egypt have urged them to consider President Trump’s latest proposal (which by historic standards is far less than what the 1947 UN partition plan offered, which Arabs rejected).

Only those who reject the right of Israel to exist, and view her as an “occupying” power, would so consistently overplay their hand in this way. This is what I believe Arabs and Muslims have been doing. And this is why I believe it is so important to reframe this entire debate. Finally, before the usual voices respond with rage, I too used to completely boycott Israel. Until, that is, that I chose to look into this complicated issue with an open mind and open heart, and allowed the facts and not emotion to guide me. The result to date, is my above view.

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The Levantine Arabs were the majority in Syria, Jordan and Palestine before the Mandate. Look at the Ottoman census of 1870. They didn't even try to count the Bedouin.
 
It was not the United Nations that partitioned Palestine. It was the League of Nations after WW I. In 1922 Palestine was divided. If you ever saw the movie, Lawerence of Arabia a bit of the history is told. After World War 1 the Allies in the Middle East who helped defeat the Ottomans who ruled that area were rewarded with kingdoms. Arabia was given to Saud. The Sherrif of Mecca, or Faisal and his sons were given Jordan and Iraq. That was after they got kicked out of Damascus by the French. The French were given the Syrian mandate by the League of Nations.

League of Nations, over 20 years before the United Nations, divided Palestine into Jordan and Israel.

Lolol ibn Saud took Arabia by 1917. You sure didn't understand Lawrence of Arabia.
 
Kind of an awkward attempt to validate a correct premise.

Palestine, is a correct term to use for Israel. It is correct to state that Palestine was not a country, that is true. Palestine always described a region that was within Syria. I am not saying Israel was a part of Syria in it's entire history. Historically, the Romans referred to the area they conquered as, Palestine.

Arabs are not Palestinians, I think that would be Egypt's president Nasser that dubbed them as such in 1964.

The map you have chosen is poor. I would pick one that was drawn by the League of Nations in 1922 I think the year is.

The region that is Palestine includes Jordan, the original mandate for Israel included Jordan. Trans-Jordan? Trans refers to Palestine East of the Jordan River. Hence Trans-Jordan is Easter Palestine. The Arabs have already received a huge chunk of Palestine!

Arabs were the majority before the Mandate.
 
Arabs were the majority before the Mandate.
Is there a Christian or Islamic importance today that you woke up needing to post on every thread you can and bring back threads which have been not answered for years?

How have the mods not banned you from this forum for your endless abuse remains a mystery.
 

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