Heros

Coyote

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This came out of another thread, where a discussion of people we considered heros came out.

Who do you consider a hero and why? What is a hero?

To me, the what is is someone I admire who I felt has done great things (even if only in a small arena) and/or transcended horrible things to become a great person. It's also someone who faces great adversity for a greater good.

My list of hero's is always growing, but they include the following.

James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner: these 3 young, American Civil Righst Activists were among the many that went south during the Freedom Summer of 1964 to help register black voters. They were ambushed and murdered by members of the KKK, and attempts to attain justice for their deaths covered up by corrupt police and government officials. What they were doing was life changing in the south, and dangerous - dangrous to an entrenched way of life that couldn't abide the thought of equal rights - voting rights - for black people and did everything in it's power to stop it, including murder. What they did was very brave and made a difference - their subsequent murders put the issue on every front page. They changed the United States of America and put Civil Rights in every living room.

Doctors Without Borders - this isn't one person, but many, and they are all heros. They enter dangerous areas, war zones, epidemic disease zones - to treat and help people. They don't have to do this. They are volunteers. They are often the only medical people in reach for desperate people. They war violence, political violence, and disease outbreaks. This really hit home recently when the news reported 4 hospitals in one week had been shelled in the Syrian conflict.

Journalists - this is another group, and a controversial one. But good journalists face many dangers trying to report on what is going on around the world. They have been killed, imprisoned, threatened when trying to cover conflicts or events in closed societies. Without them we would no little (other than government approved) news about the Syrian conflict, Afghanistan, Ukraine, North Korea and many other contentious places. Democracy and real freedom is impossible without the press keeping people informed and the more sources of information we have, the better informed we are about issues. I may not always agree - but I salute them.


Menachin Begin and Nelson Mandella. These two I put together as a pair because they are very similar, though I didn't see that at first. At one time, I was very critical of Begin, because he was a terrorist and responsible for a huge upswing in Irgun terrorist activity targeting civilians. Yet I considered Mandella a hero. In a thread a long while back I got into a discussion with another member about this. Yes, Begin was a terrorist - but what made him great was that he transcended that and began working for peace with Israel's enemies instead of conflict. Likewise with Mandella, I hadn't realize he had been an active terrorist but knew him mainly for what he did after being released from prison. Like Begin, Mandella was responsible for some horrific violence, and his time in prison tempored that, and brought about a new approach on bringing down apartheid. But most important, imo was what he did after - the truth and reconciliation effort, that kept South Africa together as a country and united it's people. That's a huge thing - look at what's happened in similar African countries (Rhodesia/Zimbabwe) - for example. It is that which makes Mandella a hero and a great man. In these two, we have imperfect heros who transcended their flaws and made something great.


Izzeldin Abulaish. Izzeldin is a Palestinian doctor born and raised in the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza. He was a doctor in an Israeli hospital and treated both Israeli and Palestinian patients. After his 3 daughters were killed by Israeli strike during the 2008 Gaza war it would have been so easy to take that grief and turn it into hatred, but he didn't. He wrote a book called "I shall not hate" and their deaths strengthened his resolve to work towards peace and promote reconciliation between Israeli's and Palestinians.


There are more heros...everyday heros, I'll think of more.

Who are your heros?
 
My hero is a little girl named Katie, she's wheel chair bound due to an auto accident and is dealing with something too horrific to even mention on here but she's facing it head on and refuses to give up and let it beat her. A very brave little girl
 
I have a FB friend named Emily who is fighting cancer again. Post after post of smiles and living life.
 
I admire Kim Jong Un. This poor retarded kid had the weight of an entire country thrust upon him. There was no way a person of his limited mental capacity could run a country, but he has so far.

Congratulations, Kim. We applaud you. :clap:
 
I have always admired Ron Jeremy and his stone schlong. He is still making cameo appearances here and there. Most importantly, even though he was a fat, ugly, hairy douche bag with a cocaine problem, he lived his life on his terms thanks to his superior cocksmanship. He was one of the best pussy punishers ever. If you really want something in life, like pussy and cocaine, then it is yours provided you work hard enough!
 
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I'm pulling this discussion from another thread so as not to derail that thread: Dogmaphobe

I stated Menachem Begin and Nelson Mandella as two people who started out as terrorists, responsible for many murders, who transcended that and went on promote peace and reconciliation.

Is their legacy defined only by one extreme or another or can prior evils be overcome by good actions, restitution, or a repudiation of violence?


What is your thought on these two men Dogma?
 
I'm pulling this discussion from another thread so as not to derail that thread: Dogmaphobe

I stated Menachem Begin and Nelson Mandella as two people who started out as terrorists, responsible for many murders, who transcended that and went on promote peace and reconciliation.

Is their legacy defined only by one extreme or another or can prior evils be overcome by good actions, restitution, or a repudiation of violence?


What is your thought on these two men Dogma?


Are call-out threads like this even allowed here?

My belief, however, is quite different than your because I do not believe the ends justifies the means.

I hope that satisfies the needs of your bullying for now.
 
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It was a discussion you you kept referring to in your drive by flames in another thread. Since it was going to derail the thread if we kept at it, I brought it here. I'm not sure how responding to your posts is "bullying". Your intent might have been flaming but you provoke interesting questions of philosophy.

I don't believe the ends justify the means, that's how fanatics justify their actions - at what point do you draw the line and how many lives are lost? But - it's not an easy philosophical concept to answer and I can think of scenarios people could bring up to argue that point.

Neither Mandella nor Begin are Saints. Maybe Heros isn't the right term either, but I think Great Men fits. Both renounced violence as a means to move forward but neither regretted the violence they engaged, feeling it was needful at the time. I didn't realize it, until I looked up some articles in order to respond here. It makes them complicated people, not simple black and white carictures.




Nelson Mandela's legacy: As a leader, he was willing to use violence

In a 1979 letter to his then-wife, Winnie, Mandela reflected ruefully on the contradictions in people’s lives, and what it is to be human and fallible. An excerpt appears in his last book, a collection of notes and writings, “Conversations with Myself.”

“Habits die hard and they leave their unmistakable marks, the invisible scars that are engraved in our bones and that flow in our blood, that do havoc to the principal actors beyond repair.... Such scars portray people as they are and bring out into the full glare of public scrutiny the embarrassing contradictions in which individuals live out their lives.

“We are told that a saint is a sinner who keeps on trying to be clean. One may be a villain for three-quarters of his life and be canonized because he lived a holy life for the remaining quarter of that life.

“In real life we deal, not with gods, but with ordinary humans like ourselves: men and women who are full of contradictions, who are stable and fickle, strong and weak, famous and infamous, people in whose bloodstream the muckworm battles daily with potent pesticides.”



The article also said: But unlike Gandhi, who said that nonviolence and truth were inseparable, and King, who famously declared that violence was immoral, Mandela embraced armed struggle to end the racist system of apartheid.

MLK accomplished what he did with no violence.
 
It was a discussion you you kept referring to in your drive by flames in another thread. Since it was going to derail the thread if we kept at it, I brought it here. I'm not sure how responding to your posts is "bullying". Your intent might have been flaming but you provoke interesting questions of philosophy.

I don't believe the ends justify the means, that's how fanatics justify their actions - at what point do you draw the line and how many lives are lost? But - it's not an easy philosophical concept to answer and I can think of scenarios people could bring up to argue that point.

Neither Mandella nor Begin are Saints. Maybe Heros isn't the right term either, but I think Great Men fits. Both renounced violence as a means to move forward but neither regretted the violence they engaged, feeling it was needful at the time. I didn't realize it, until I looked up some articles in order to respond here. It makes them complicated people, not simple black and white carictures.




Nelson Mandela's legacy: As a leader, he was willing to use violence

In a 1979 letter to his then-wife, Winnie, Mandela reflected ruefully on the contradictions in people’s lives, and what it is to be human and fallible. An excerpt appears in his last book, a collection of notes and writings, “Conversations with Myself.”

“Habits die hard and they leave their unmistakable marks, the invisible scars that are engraved in our bones and that flow in our blood, that do havoc to the principal actors beyond repair.... Such scars portray people as they are and bring out into the full glare of public scrutiny the embarrassing contradictions in which individuals live out their lives.

“We are told that a saint is a sinner who keeps on trying to be clean. One may be a villain for three-quarters of his life and be canonized because he lived a holy life for the remaining quarter of that life.

“In real life we deal, not with gods, but with ordinary humans like ourselves: men and women who are full of contradictions, who are stable and fickle, strong and weak, famous and infamous, people in whose bloodstream the muckworm battles daily with potent pesticides.”



The article also said: But unlike Gandhi, who said that nonviolence and truth were inseparable, and King, who famously declared that violence was immoral, Mandela embraced armed struggle to end the racist system of apartheid.

MLK accomplished what he did with no violence.


Reminding you of positions you have taken are not "drive by flames".

I realize you are about as thoroughly corrupt and underhanded an individual as you can be, but just because you legitimize Islamist murder of Jews, that does not make them heroes.

I do not support mass murder. You may have hoodwinked yourself into thing your are virtuous for doing so, but you aren't.
 
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It was a discussion you you kept referring to in your drive by flames in another thread. Since it was going to derail the thread if we kept at it, I brought it here. I'm not sure how responding to your posts is "bullying". Your intent might have been flaming but you provoke interesting questions of philosophy.

I don't believe the ends justify the means, that's how fanatics justify their actions - at what point do you draw the line and how many lives are lost? But - it's not an easy philosophical concept to answer and I can think of scenarios people could bring up to argue that point.

Neither Mandella nor Begin are Saints. Maybe Heros isn't the right term either, but I think Great Men fits. Both renounced violence as a means to move forward but neither regretted the violence they engaged, feeling it was needful at the time. I didn't realize it, until I looked up some articles in order to respond here. It makes them complicated people, not simple black and white carictures.




Nelson Mandela's legacy: As a leader, he was willing to use violence

In a 1979 letter to his then-wife, Winnie, Mandela reflected ruefully on the contradictions in people’s lives, and what it is to be human and fallible. An excerpt appears in his last book, a collection of notes and writings, “Conversations with Myself.”

“Habits die hard and they leave their unmistakable marks, the invisible scars that are engraved in our bones and that flow in our blood, that do havoc to the principal actors beyond repair.... Such scars portray people as they are and bring out into the full glare of public scrutiny the embarrassing contradictions in which individuals live out their lives.

“We are told that a saint is a sinner who keeps on trying to be clean. One may be a villain for three-quarters of his life and be canonized because he lived a holy life for the remaining quarter of that life.

“In real life we deal, not with gods, but with ordinary humans like ourselves: men and women who are full of contradictions, who are stable and fickle, strong and weak, famous and infamous, people in whose bloodstream the muckworm battles daily with potent pesticides.”



The article also said: But unlike Gandhi, who said that nonviolence and truth were inseparable, and King, who famously declared that violence was immoral, Mandela embraced armed struggle to end the racist system of apartheid.

MLK accomplished what he did with no violence.


Reminding you of positions you have taken are not "drive by flames".

I realize you are about as thoroughly corrupt and underhanded an individual as you can be, but just because you legitimize Islamist murder of Jews, that does not make them heroes.

I do not support mass murder. You may have hoodwinked yourself into thing your are virtuous for doing so, but you aren't.

Hmmmm....jumping into a thread spewing something completely irrelevant to the topic and then running away rather than proving you claims with links or sources is not a drive-by flame?


Your stated hero, Thomas Edison was a well-known racist and anti-semite who enjoyed touring the country electrocuting animals - his electrocution of an elephant is captured on film.
 

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