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Here's the thing about CharlottesvilleIt

Boss

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I know we've beaten this topic to death here and there must be at least a few dozen threads on the topic at least, but I feel like there is a profound point or two that needs to be made. You can agree with me or disagree, I don't really care. This is simply my viewpoint on the situation as a whole.

First of all, to view this as a binary left/right issue is patently stupid. In fact, to view this as a singular issue is equally foolish. This is actually several issues rolled into one and it's being promoted as a binary narrative by the media and the liberal left, as well as many on the right who've fallen for the trap.

Let's get some things in order so we have clarity. Charlottesville had proposed removing a Confederate monument citing it's offensiveness to certain citizens. A group of people who opposed this obtained a permit to peacefully protest the removal. The group was "Unite the Right" ...not a hate group, not white supremacists. However, several neo-nazi and KKK hate groups showed up to join the protest. Also showing up was Antifa, a radical extremist left organization who came to violently protest the protesters. The police, whether overtly or passively, were instructed to not intervene and violence erupted between the fringe extremist elements at the protest. It quickly got out of control and resulted in a slimeball white supremacist killing someone with his car.

Since then, the left has exploited the tragedy to score political points and bash Trump, Republicans, the right, Conservatives and everyone who is not a left wing liberal. The right, for the most part, have condemned the actions of the white supremacists and the violence from both sides while questioning where the police were. Trump made the statement that "there were good people on both sides." This was immediately attacked by the left and media who are fully invested in a binary narrative.

Trump was correct. There were good people on both sides. Not both sides of the violent extremist groups, but both sides of the issue regarding the removal of the statue. The peaceful protesters who didn't engage in violence. They were there to exercise their First Amendment rights. And this is where the left (and some on the right) are completely missing the point. There is more than one issue here!

First there is the issue of whether or not a Confederate statue is appropriate. Some say yes, some say no, and it doesn't have anything to do with racism or white supremacy. No doubt, there are some who favor keeping the statues who are white supremacists. There are also some who favor tearing down the statues because they hold a racist view toward white people. But these elements do not represent the vast majority of the general public. Most people who favor keeping the statues are viewing it as a historical thing that we shouldn't change because some may be offended. Most people opposed are doing so in deference to sensitivities of those who are offended. Both sides have a valid and compelling point that has nothing to do with white supremacy.

In a free society, we should be able to engage in these kind of debates without things devolving into violence. We cannot condemn violence from one side while turning a blind eye to violence from the other. We have to consistently condemn ALL the violence because that's how free society operates.

So now we see there is a clear secondary issue here. It's the right of free people to peacefully protest. Whether you agree or disagree with the right or left on this issue or any other, you should support their right to peacefully demonstrate. Violence is totally unacceptable... right OR left! It doesn't matter if you view one side as abhorrent and intolerable, they still have the right to peacefully demonstrate and you don't have the right to violently attack them.

Some on the Left have attempted to argue that "Hate Speech" isn't protected by the First Amendment. This is patently absurd. So-called "Hate Speech" is exactly what IS protected! Non-offensive speech doesn't require protection. The Left has concocted this "Hate Speech" label to apply to any speech they disagree with politically, and that's a very dangerous thing to do. You can denounce what you consider "hate speech" but you don't have any right to shut it down, especially not with violence. Once you've crossed that line into violent acts, you've lost your freedom of speech and you need to go to jail.
 

BULLDOG

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I know we've beaten this topic to death here and there must be at least a few dozen threads on the topic at least, but I feel like there is a profound point or two that needs to be made. You can agree with me or disagree, I don't really care. This is simply my viewpoint on the situation as a whole.

First of all, to view this as a binary left/right issue is patently stupid. In fact, to view this as a singular issue is equally foolish. This is actually several issues rolled into one and it's being promoted as a binary narrative by the media and the liberal left, as well as many on the right who've fallen for the trap.

Let's get some things in order so we have clarity. Charlottesville had proposed removing a Confederate monument citing it's offensiveness to certain citizens. A group of people who opposed this obtained a permit to peacefully protest the removal. The group was "Unite the Right" ...not a hate group, not white supremacists. However, several neo-nazi and KKK hate groups showed up to join the protest. Also showing up was Antifa, a radical extremist left organization who came to violently protest the protesters. The police, whether overtly or passively, were instructed to not intervene and violence erupted between the fringe extremist elements at the protest. It quickly got out of control and resulted in a slimeball white supremacist killing someone with his car.

Since then, the left has exploited the tragedy to score political points and bash Trump, Republicans, the right, Conservatives and everyone who is not a left wing liberal. The right, for the most part, have condemned the actions of the white supremacists and the violence from both sides while questioning where the police were. Trump made the statement that "there were good people on both sides." This was immediately attacked by the left and media who are fully invested in a binary narrative.

Trump was correct. There were good people on both sides. Not both sides of the violent extremist groups, but both sides of the issue regarding the removal of the statue. The peaceful protesters who didn't engage in violence. They were there to exercise their First Amendment rights. And this is where the left (and some on the right) are completely missing the point. There is more than one issue here!

First there is the issue of whether or not a Confederate statue is appropriate. Some say yes, some say no, and it doesn't have anything to do with racism or white supremacy. No doubt, there are some who favor keeping the statues who are white supremacists. There are also some who favor tearing down the statues because they hold a racist view toward white people. But these elements do not represent the vast majority of the general public. Most people who favor keeping the statues are viewing it as a historical thing that we shouldn't change because some may be offended. Most people opposed are doing so in deference to sensitivities of those who are offended. Both sides have a valid and compelling point that has nothing to do with white supremacy.

In a free society, we should be able to engage in these kind of debates without things devolving into violence. We cannot condemn violence from one side while turning a blind eye to violence from the other. We have to consistently condemn ALL the violence because that's how free society operates.

So now we see there is a clear secondary issue here. It's the right of free people to peacefully protest. Whether you agree or disagree with the right or left on this issue or any other, you should support their right to peacefully demonstrate. Violence is totally unacceptable... right OR left! It doesn't matter if you view one side as abhorrent and intolerable, they still have the right to peacefully demonstrate and you don't have the right to violently attack them.

Some on the Left have attempted to argue that "Hate Speech" isn't protected by the First Amendment. This is patently absurd. So-called "Hate Speech" is exactly what IS protected! Non-offensive speech doesn't require protection. The Left has concocted this "Hate Speech" label to apply to any speech they disagree with politically, and that's a very dangerous thing to do. You can denounce what you consider "hate speech" but you don't have any right to shut it down, especially not with violence. Once you've crossed that line into violent acts, you've lost your freedom of speech and you need to go to jail.

So you've clarified the entire issue by repeating the right wing talking points and condemning the left. How fair and balanced of you.
 

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That was a lot of words to say little. But, I mostly agree.
 
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So you've clarified the entire issue by repeating the right wing talking points and condemning the left. How fair and balanced of you.

What are you calling "talking points?"

Pretty much everything from the beginning of 2nd graph on.

Well okay, but.... From what I've seen, many on the so-called right are running to the nearest camera and microphone to cower and capitulate to the virtue signalling left. But if you view my comments as the right wing political "talking points" then you are in for some serious ass kicking in the midterms. Because you really don't have a viable and rational counterpoint to what I said.

I really do hope that you're right and this is going to be the "talking points" the electorate has to consider in 2018. You'll be obliterated as a political party in America, if that's the case. You want to stand up and denounce the First Amendment, throw your support behind a violent mob who refuses to accept freedom of speech? Be my fucking guest! You want to put yourself in the corner of radical domestic terrorists like Antifa while you accuse essentially 63 million people of being racists and white supremacists? Goodbye Democratic Party! Been nice knowing you!
 

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'Jews will not replace us!' Now that's the way to peacefully protect a statue, no argument. Less than a minute in....

 

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While the Right is represented by Trump, who steadfastly defends the lunatics marching with torches and Nazi salutes, 2018 is going to be a disaster for Republicans.
 

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From what I've seen, many on the so-called right are running to the nearest camera and microphone to cower and capitulate to the virtue signalling left.
'So-called right'? Do you go with the line that fascists are actually socialists?

433642FA00000578-4785732-image-a-39_1502597598840.jpg
 

cnm

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While the Right is represented by Trump, who steadfastly defends the lunatics marching with torches and Nazi salutes, 2018 is going to be a disaster for Republicans.
You have greater faith in the American electorate than me.
 

bripat9643

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I know we've beaten this topic to death here and there must be at least a few dozen threads on the topic at least, but I feel like there is a profound point or two that needs to be made. You can agree with me or disagree, I don't really care. This is simply my viewpoint on the situation as a whole.

First of all, to view this as a binary left/right issue is patently stupid. In fact, to view this as a singular issue is equally foolish. This is actually several issues rolled into one and it's being promoted as a binary narrative by the media and the liberal left, as well as many on the right who've fallen for the trap.

Let's get some things in order so we have clarity. Charlottesville had proposed removing a Confederate monument citing it's offensiveness to certain citizens. A group of people who opposed this obtained a permit to peacefully protest the removal. The group was "Unite the Right" ...not a hate group, not white supremacists. However, several neo-nazi and KKK hate groups showed up to join the protest. Also showing up was Antifa, a radical extremist left organization who came to violently protest the protesters. The police, whether overtly or passively, were instructed to not intervene and violence erupted between the fringe extremist elements at the protest. It quickly got out of control and resulted in a slimeball white supremacist killing someone with his car.

Since then, the left has exploited the tragedy to score political points and bash Trump, Republicans, the right, Conservatives and everyone who is not a left wing liberal. The right, for the most part, have condemned the actions of the white supremacists and the violence from both sides while questioning where the police were. Trump made the statement that "there were good people on both sides." This was immediately attacked by the left and media who are fully invested in a binary narrative.

Trump was correct. There were good people on both sides. Not both sides of the violent extremist groups, but both sides of the issue regarding the removal of the statue. The peaceful protesters who didn't engage in violence. They were there to exercise their First Amendment rights. And this is where the left (and some on the right) are completely missing the point. There is more than one issue here!

First there is the issue of whether or not a Confederate statue is appropriate. Some say yes, some say no, and it doesn't have anything to do with racism or white supremacy. No doubt, there are some who favor keeping the statues who are white supremacists. There are also some who favor tearing down the statues because they hold a racist view toward white people. But these elements do not represent the vast majority of the general public. Most people who favor keeping the statues are viewing it as a historical thing that we shouldn't change because some may be offended. Most people opposed are doing so in deference to sensitivities of those who are offended. Both sides have a valid and compelling point that has nothing to do with white supremacy.

In a free society, we should be able to engage in these kind of debates without things devolving into violence. We cannot condemn violence from one side while turning a blind eye to violence from the other. We have to consistently condemn ALL the violence because that's how free society operates.

So now we see there is a clear secondary issue here. It's the right of free people to peacefully protest. Whether you agree or disagree with the right or left on this issue or any other, you should support their right to peacefully demonstrate. Violence is totally unacceptable... right OR left! It doesn't matter if you view one side as abhorrent and intolerable, they still have the right to peacefully demonstrate and you don't have the right to violently attack them.

Some on the Left have attempted to argue that "Hate Speech" isn't protected by the First Amendment. This is patently absurd. So-called "Hate Speech" is exactly what IS protected! Non-offensive speech doesn't require protection. The Left has concocted this "Hate Speech" label to apply to any speech they disagree with politically, and that's a very dangerous thing to do. You can denounce what you consider "hate speech" but you don't have any right to shut it down, especially not with violence. Once you've crossed that line into violent acts, you've lost your freedom of speech and you need to go to jail.

So you've clarified the entire issue by repeating the right wing talking points and condemning the left. How fair and balanced of you.
You mean he posted the facts. We know you would be against that.
 

bripat9643

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While the Right is represented by Trump, who steadfastly defends the lunatics marching with torches and Nazi salutes, 2018 is going to be a disaster for Republicans.
He doesn't defend those people, you sleazy, lying piece of shit.
 

bripat9643

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From what I've seen, many on the so-called right are running to the nearest camera and microphone to cower and capitulate to the virtue signalling left.
'So-called right'? Do you go with the line that fascists are actually socialists?

433642FA00000578-4785732-image-a-39_1502597598840.jpg
Of course they are, dumbass.
 

Care4all

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This alleged Unite the Right peaceful protest began Friday night with bus loads of people handed torches with a mimic of the NAZI torch marches and Nazi chants..... where were all these good people that were not Nazis and white supremacists in the protest lock step march...???
 
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Care4all

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The era the statues were erected were not to commemorate the South's best Traitors to the United States of America...they were put up to intimidate black people during the Jim Crow era, where black people were kept from voting and new laws were created to imprison them, and laws written to take the right to vote away from prisoners who always had the right to vote in prison before the civil war if white.... and segregation etc etc etc

History shows they were not put up, for any kind of goodness or commemoration in a good sense of an alleged war hero or heritage.

That's just a fact.

so WHY is keeping these statues up, when they were placed where they are for nefarious and evil reasons, so important? Makes no sense to me???

They belong in a Museum, to commemorate History, with a lot more details.
 

irosie91

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I know we've beaten this topic to death here and there must be at least a few dozen threads on the topic at least, but I feel like there is a profound point or two that needs to be made. You can agree with me or disagree, I don't really care. This is simply my viewpoint on the situation as a whole.

First of all, to view this as a binary left/right issue is patently stupid. In fact, to view this as a singular issue is equally foolish. This is actually several issues rolled into one and it's being promoted as a binary narrative by the media and the liberal left, as well as many on the right who've fallen for the trap.

Let's get some things in order so we have clarity. Charlottesville had proposed removing a Confederate monument citing it's offensiveness to certain citizens. A group of people who opposed this obtained a permit to peacefully protest the removal. The group was "Unite the Right" ...not a hate group, not white supremacists. However, several neo-nazi and KKK hate groups showed up to join the protest. Also showing up was Antifa, a radical extremist left organization who came to violently protest the protesters. The police, whether overtly or passively, were instructed to not intervene and violence erupted between the fringe extremist elements at the protest. It quickly got out of control and resulted in a slimeball white supremacist killing someone with his car.

Since then, the left has exploited the tragedy to score political points and bash Trump, Republicans, the right, Conservatives and everyone who is not a left wing liberal. The right, for the most part, have condemned the actions of the white supremacists and the violence from both sides while questioning where the police were. Trump made the statement that "there were good people on both sides." This was immediately attacked by the left and media who are fully invested in a binary narrative.

Trump was correct. There were good people on both sides. Not both sides of the violent extremist groups, but both sides of the issue regarding the removal of the statue. The peaceful protesters who didn't engage in violence. They were there to exercise their First Amendment rights. And this is where the left (and some on the right) are completely missing the point. There is more than one issue here!

First there is the issue of whether or not a Confederate statue is appropriate. Some say yes, some say no, and it doesn't have anything to do with racism or white supremacy. No doubt, there are some who favor keeping the statues who are white supremacists. There are also some who favor tearing down the statues because they hold a racist view toward white people. But these elements do not represent the vast majority of the general public. Most people who favor keeping the statues are viewing it as a historical thing that we shouldn't change because some may be offended. Most people opposed are doing so in deference to sensitivities of those who are offended. Both sides have a valid and compelling point that has nothing to do with white supremacy.

In a free society, we should be able to engage in these kind of debates without things devolving into violence. We cannot condemn violence from one side while turning a blind eye to violence from the other. We have to consistently condemn ALL the violence because that's how free society operates.

So now we see there is a clear secondary issue here. It's the right of free people to peacefully protest. Whether you agree or disagree with the right or left on this issue or any other, you should support their right to peacefully demonstrate. Violence is totally unacceptable... right OR left! It doesn't matter if you view one side as abhorrent and intolerable, they still have the right to peacefully demonstrate and you don't have the right to violently attack them.

Some on the Left have attempted to argue that "Hate Speech" isn't protected by the First Amendment. This is patently absurd. So-called "Hate Speech" is exactly what IS protected! Non-offensive speech doesn't require protection. The Left has concocted this "Hate Speech" label to apply to any speech they disagree with politically, and that's a very dangerous thing to do. You can denounce what you consider "hate speech" but you don't have any right to shut it down, especially not with violence. Once you've crossed that line into violent acts, you've lost your freedom of speech and you need to go to jail.

So you've clarified the entire issue by repeating the right wing talking points and condemning the left. How fair and balanced of you.

your perception is based on the fact that you are playing "binary" just as the OP described and
you see the "LEFT" position (disclaimer----it is not 'left' to me----a registered democrat---simply
THUG ) to be ABSOLUTELY THE ONE AND ONLY WAY TO GO
 

irosie91

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This alleged Unite the Right peaceful protest began Friday night with bus loads of people handed torches with a mimic of the NAZI torch marches and Nazi chants..... where were all these good people that were not Nazis and white supremacists in the protest lock step march...???

The Nazis held torch marches? I did not know. There were Nazi chants? what did they say?
 
OP
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This alleged Unite the Right peaceful protest began Friday night with bus loads of people handed torches with a mimic of the NAZI torch marches and Nazi chants..... where were all these good people that were not Nazis and white supremacists in the protest lock step march...???

I don't give a flying fuck who they were or what they chanted! I'm not defending their viewpoint! I think Neo-nazis and white supremacists are the lowest form of pond scum on the planet and I think about 95% of America agrees with that. No one supports these extremists or their hate rhetoric..... BUT.... we live in a country where you have freedom of speech, and that includes speech we find offensive and abhorrent.

I agree with Trump, not everyone there was with the white supremacists, neo-nazis or antifa. Some people were simply peaceful concerned citizens who came there to freely express their viewpoint. I don't know WHERE they were or WHY the mainstream media didn't want to give them camera time. IT fucking doesn't matter!

You are attempting to excuse the actions of Antifa while condemning the others and accusing Trump, Republicans, the right and conservatives of supporting the white supremacists! ALL based on us defending the right of ALL to speak and condemning ALL the violence!

Let me put it to you in a simple synopsis...

Antifa, Black Lives Matter, Occupy Wall Street, etc. --Left wing radical groups I disagree with but defend their right to peacefully protest and speak in the public square. All of whom I condemn violent acts perpetrated by their groups.

KKK, white supremacists, white nationalists, neo-nazis, etc.--- Right wing radical groups I disagree with but defend their right to peacefully protest and speak in the public square. All of whom I condemn violent acts perpetrated by their groups.

Are you getting that through your fucking granite-like cranium? I REJECT what they stand for! I SUPPORT their freedom to speak! I CONDEMN their violent actions! ALL OF THEM!

You don't want to take that position, that's on YOU! But you are NOT going to twist and contort MY position into something it's NOT! Stop the fucking SLANDER!
 

irosie91

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The era the statues were erected were not to commemorate the South's best Traitors to the United States of America...they were put up to intimidate black people during the Jim Crow era, where black people were kept from voting and new laws were created to imprison them, and laws written to take the right to vote away from prisoners who always had the right to vote in prison before the civil war if white.... and segregation etc etc etc

History shows they were not put up, for any kind of goodness or commemoration in a good sense of an alleged war hero or heritage.

That's just a fact.

so WHY is keeping these statues up, when they were placed where they are for nefarious and evil reasons, so important? Makes no sense to me???

They belong in a Museum, to commemorate History, with a lot more details.

I am fascinated. The "SPECIFIC" reason for putting up a statue of a general like Robert
E Lee was to "INTIMIDATE BLACKs......." I am not DENYING your allegation----it just seems
silly to me...... You got anything to support your allegation? Laws removing the right to
vote from felons were created SPECIFICALLY to target blacks? I assume that would be sometime
in the mid 1800s-----you got something to support that allegation?. I am not denying the fact that
blacks were oppressed in the south
 
OP
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The era the statues were erected were not to commemorate the South's best Traitors to the United States of America...they were put up to intimidate black people during the Jim Crow era, where black people were kept from voting and new laws were created to imprison them, and laws written to take the right to vote away from prisoners who always had the right to vote in prison before the civil war if white.... and segregation etc etc etc

That's your viewpoint and that's FINE! I have NO objection to your viewpoint. I don't necessarily agree with you but I respect your right to express your viewpoint. The thing is, YOU haven't been put in charge of deciding these issues for all! YOU don't get to write yourself a pass to violate the First Amendment because you don't like something.

What's wrong with letting the COMMUNITY decide and you keeping your fucking virtue-signalling nose out of it? It's ironic that YOU are being the FASCIST here! You want to use your iron fist to demand society conform to your demands... Mussolini couldn't be more proud!
 

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