Hate the system not the religion

[Myvoicecounts]

It is quite saddening to see how people hate islam , rather than hating the people who are controlling these world events in such a way that they are wrecking everyone's lives.

I am curious and will ask the administrator this question: Was this part of the US messageboards put up before 9/11 or after?

In either case, I would like to say , don't yield to the scapegoat method because a few psychos have been going around and killing everyone.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Myvoicecounts
I am curious and will ask the administrator this question: Was this part of the US messageboards placed before 9/11 or after?

The entire board is less than 1 year old. This section was originally created with the rest of the main forums on the board. It's intent is not to voice hate messages (although it gets it's fair share), but to share views about the Muslim community and hear voices from those within the Mulsim community.

Welcome to the board.

 

[Hobbit]

I don't blame Muslims as a whole. I try to blame people on their own merit. However, I do have to question the suras that say things like "Kill all unbelievers." And yes, that is in the Quran.

Bottom line: I don't agree with their religion, but don't hold a grudge against any Muslim who's not trying to kill somebody.

 

[Myvoicecounts]

"It's intent is not to voice hate messages (although it gets it's fair share), but to share views about the Muslim community and hear voices from those within the Mulsim community."

I hope you are right jimnyc , before you go insulting me again, thanks for the welcome. I am not new to this forum, I just forgot the password to my old sc name.

I have to say, that 90% of this board is full of hate. The very titles themselves are ridiculously racist and degrading. I found only one or two members here from the "muslim community" and have seen them getting insulted, called liars and everything.

But if what you say is what you are really hoping to achieve here, then I guess this is going to be a fun trip for me.

Hobbit: "Bottom line: I don't agree with their religion, but don't hold a grudge against any Muslim who's not trying to kill somebody."

Exactly and if we want to talk about the suras then we should also look at the christian and jewish scriptures.. I am sure we can find things that are similar to "Kill all unbelievers." in them too.

 

[jimnyc]

I hope you are right jimnyc , before you go insulting me again, thanks for the welcome. I am not new to this forum, I just forgot the password to my old sc name.

What is your old member name? There's a built in feature on the board for retreiving lost passwords.

I have to say, that 90% of this board is full of hate. The very titles themselves are ridiculously racist and degrading.

How are any of the titles racist or degrading? Are you speaking of the forum titles or the titles users use to start threads?

 

[Hobbit]

I am sure we can find things that are similar to "Kill all unbelievers." in them too.

There are a few bloody orders that the Hebrews carried out in the Old Testament, such as their genocide of the Canaanites and bloody campaigns against invaders. However, there is no blanket order to kill anyone in the Bible. The closest it gets to telling you to kill anyone is, "Protect the weak and the innocent," which is the verse abortion bombers use to justify themselves. The bottom line of the Bible is, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Myvoicecounts
I found only one or two members here from the "muslim community" and have seen them getting insulted, called liars and everything.

Hobbit: "Bottom line: I don't agree with their religion, but don't hold a grudge against any Muslim who's not trying to kill somebody."

Exactly and if we want to talk about the suras then we should also look at the christian and jewish scriptures.. I am sure we can find things that are similar to "Kill all unbelievers." in them too.

I notice you didn't disagree with the point and you could not prove it. If the koran preaches murder, you don't justify that by trying to set up a straw man and knock him down.

You did not prove that the koran does NOT advocate such a thing in your defense, nor did you even claim it. Hobbit DID.

It is behaviors like this that get muslims called liars. -They ARE when they claim to follow their own text and then turn around and deny the text its self.

Wether you are insulted based upon factual representation or not is really irrelevant. Facts are more important than feelings. It is when these facts come out that you first would feel insulted, and then by defending the koran, the lying begins. This is where we have been in the discussions on islam.

Now, if you claim to follow the basic beliefs, but deny the text, then that is something all together different as it would justify NOT believing you should kill infidels. -But since that is pretty much impossible as islam as a belief system goes, the logical conclusion is clear.

 

[jimnyc]

In case anyone is wondering, this member is formerly known as "Spirit Soul". Although we had our bouts, she's a good person and was quite a contributor many months ago.

Unless I'm wrong, which I highly doubt, welcome back Spirit.

 

[Myvoicecounts]

Wether you are insulted based upon factual representation or not is really irrelevant. Facts are more important than feelings. It is when these facts come out that you first would feel insulted, and then by defending the koran, the lying begins. This is where we have been in the discussions on islam.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think i lied to you about anything pertaining to koran until now and I have not even started talking about it yet and you are already expecting me to lie if I start defending koran.

Can I ask you why you are so biased and if you are that biased , why do you care to learn about the muslim community?


Newguy: "Now, if you claim to follow the basic beliefs, but deny the text, then that is something all together different as it would justify NOT believing you should kill infidels. -But since that is pretty much impossible as islam as a belief system goes, the logical conclusion is clear."

I have met muslims who claim to follow Koran and Hadith and they didn't come running after me with a sword trying to kill me. Neither do they send their family members to become terrorists.

What you are arguing here is similar to an argument that says, "America is a sexist nation because it has a christian majority and the christians ofcourse believe that God made women from Adam's rib, which shows that women are inferior to men and through our great mental capabilities we can claim that America is a sexist nation" Now we can all see how silly that sounds.
So Mr.Newguy,
what is written is not always followed and this applies to the muslims too.

Thank you.

 

[Myvoicecounts]

Originally posted by jimnyc
In case anyone is wondering, this member is formerly known as "Spirit Soul". Although we had our bouts, she's a good person and was quite a contributor many months ago.

Unless I'm wrong, which I highly doubt, welcome back Spirit.

Ha!
You got me :

You are right.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Myvoicecounts
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think i lied to you about anything pertaining to koran until now and I have not even started talking about it yet and you are already expecting me to lie if I start defending koran.

I merely stated the past sequence of events in the discussions I have seen. Any presumptive thoughts are not applicable. I have no expectations, and I have no recollection of past discussions with you directly.

Can I ask you why you are so biased and if you are that biased , why do you care to learn about the muslim community?

I am not biased. I read the text the same as any one else can, and I take it in context. I am a seeing is believing, "prove it to me" kind of guy. I am quite capable of taking things in context, and the koran speaks for its self. That is not bias. Taking the teachings out of context or taking it to mean something different than what it says is bias.

Newguy: "Now, if you claim to follow the basic beliefs, but deny the text, then that is something all together different as it would justify NOT believing you should kill infidels. -But since that is pretty much impossible as islam as a belief system goes, the logical conclusion is clear."

I have met muslims who claim to follow Koran and Hadith and they didn't come running after me with a sword trying to kill me. Neither do they send their family members to become terrorists.

Fine. Are you an "infidel"? You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

What you are arguing here is similar to an argument that says, "America is a sexist nation because it has a christian majority and the christians ofcourse believe that God made women from Adam's rib, which shows that women are inferior to men and through our great mental capabilities we can claim that America is a sexist nation" Now we can all see how silly that sounds.

It IS silly because nowhere in the Bible is there a claim of inferiority amongst either gender. The only such statement that could possibly be made would be in reference to the woman being subservient to the man in a GODLY marriage where both are believers and the woman follows the man except when it opposes Gods will. THIS is how you take the Bible in context. -You follow what it says under the circumstances it says, and within the realm the BIble applies it.

So Mr.Newguy,
what is written is not always followed and this applies to the muslims too.

Thank you.

Impossible point. You would justify that both books are equal sets of living behavioral mandates. The difference is that Christians have a relationship with their Creator which MANDATES and DICTATES them being Christians. Following the text is not the qualifier. -The relationship is.

The koran cannot and does not offer that, it is a rule book. As such, A Christian can be in defiance of God, but remain a believing Christian. A muslim cannot defy the koran and remain a muslim.

Therefore, either you follow the koran and do what it says because you are a believer or you do NOT follow the koran, and are not a muslim.

Which would you be?

 

[Myvoicecounts]

seeing is believing, "prove it to me"...

If you claim that you believe what you see then what about the muslims living in United states? They claim they follow the koran, they know hadith and they even memorize all of the quran verses. Again , they are not coming after you or any body else trying to kill you because you are an infidel.


"It IS silly because nowhere in the Bible is there a claim of inferiority amongst either gender. The only such statement that could possibly be made would be in reference to the woman being subservient to the man in a GODLY marriage where both are believers and the woman follows the man except when it opposes Gods will. THIS is how you take the Bible in context. -You follow what it says under the circumstances it says, and within the realm the BIble applies it."

I don't want to focus on the bible discussion, but you have given me the same conditioned response that a muslim would when you argue with him/her about how"Koran tells you to kill" . They will also repeat that nowhere in Quran does it say that you need to kill people and they too will give explanations to support them, which are as relevant as your explanations. One of the biggest "seeing and believing" example would be the lives of American muslims and the lives of muslims in other peaceful democratic nations.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Myvoicecounts
If you claim that you believe what you see then what about the muslims living in United states? They claim they follow the koran, they know hadith and they even memorize all of the quran verses. Again , they are not coming after you or any body else trying to kill you because you are an infidel.

Once again, you dodge the issue. Either you follow the text, or you do not. Either you are a muslim or you are not. A CLAIM means nothing. I can claim to be a potato, but that doesn't make me one. (although some here would say I am one anyway )

In addition, you are saying that because they have no attack plan IN MOTION, it means they are peaceful. If they follow the koran, the best thing they could do is to pull off an attack against the infidels which will never succeed if suspected ahead of time.

To claim they are not coming after me because I cannot see it yet is a rediculous proof of peace for islam.

"It IS silly because nowhere in the Bible is there a claim of inferiority amongst either gender. The only such statement that could possibly be made would be in reference to the woman being subservient to the man in a GODLY marriage where both are believers and the woman follows the man except when it opposes Gods will. THIS is how you take the Bible in context. -You follow what it says under the circumstances it says, and within the realm the BIble applies it."

I don't want to focus on the bible discussion, but you have given me the same conditioned response that a muslim would when you argue with him/her about how"Koran tells you to kill" . They will also repeat that nowhere in Quran does it say that you need to kill people and they too will give explanations to support them, which are as relevant as your explanations.

If that is the case, you just mixed up a LOT.

1. You DO want to focus on the BIble discussion as it lays claim to you discrediting the Bible in favor of the koran.

2. If you think my explaination is a conditioned response, you need to re-evaluate your thinking. My responses to ANYTHING are far from conditioned, they are Biblically sound, and have verses to prove them. If you think I am pulling things out of context, or I am wrong, it is your duty to prove it by showing the Biblical verse to the contrary. We do this with the koran, and then you cry and whine that you have been insulted and improperly attacked.

3. My explainations are far more valid since I have proof and you do not.

One of the biggest "seeing and believing" example would be the lives of American muslims and the lives of muslims in other peaceful democratic nations.

-And ignoring their BELIEFS by ignoring their TEXT?

So far you have proven yourself in complete denial of what the koran preaches and have no evidence to back it up.

You have also not claimed the koran doesn't call you to kill infidels.

You also have denounced the Bible with no facts, and promoted ignoring the koran while obseving CURRENT muslim behavior as the proper representation of islam.

You have also said that if they are not attacking me now, it must be a peaceful religion.

You have only proven the exact behavior mechanisms of a proper terrorist belief system as represented so far.

You wonder why we think such things?

The only thing you HAVENT done is physically attacked.

I think we are perfectly just in our assumptions. -AND we have the koran, Palestine, Iraq, Spain, and the US to back it up.

 

[Myvoicecounts]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Once again, you dodge the issue. Either you follow the text, or you do not. Either you are a muslim or you are not. A CLAIM means nothing. I can claim to be a potato, but that doesn't make me one. (although some here would say I am one anyway )

In addition, you are saying that because they have no attack plan IN MOTION, it means they are peaceful. If they follow the koran, the best thing they could do is to pull off an attack against the infidels which will never succeed if suspected ahead of time.

To claim they are not coming after me because I cannot see it yet is a rediculous proof of peace for islam.



If that is the case, you just mixed up a LOT.

1. You DO want to focus on the BIble discussion as it lays claim to you discrediting the Bible in favor of the koran.

2. If you think my explaination is a conditioned response, you need to re-evaluate your thinking. My responses to ANYTHING are far from conditioned, they are Biblically sound, and have verses to prove them. If you think I am pulling things out of context, or I am wrong, it is your duty to prove it by showing the Biblical verse to the contrary. We do this with the koran, and then you cry and whine that you have been insulted and improperly attacked.

3. My explainations are far more valid since I have proof and you do not.



-And ignoring their BELIEFS by ignoring their TEXT?

So far you have proven yourself in complete denial of what the koran preaches and have no evidence to back it up.

You have also not claimed the koran doesn't call you to kill infidels.

You also have denounced the Bible with no facts, and promoted ignoring the koran while obseving CURRENT muslim behavior as the proper representation of islam.

You have also said that if they are not attacking me now, it must be a peaceful religion.

You have only proven the exact behavior mechanisms of a proper terrorist belief system as represented so far.

You wonder why we think such things?

The only thing you HAVENT done is physically attacked.

I think we are perfectly just in our assumptions. -AND we have the koran, Palestine, Iraq, Spain, and the US to back it up.

I am sorry, I will try to make my points more clear,
So far what I have done is try to show you how ignorant it seems to just judge an entire race of people by some lines written in their scriptures.

What I am trying to say here is that if they are going to kill you because their religion says so - which is to kill all infidels, then you and i should be right now should be attacked by the american muslims , but they are not attacking and neither are we running, why?- because they have everything that you and I do: They have food to eat, they have a place to live and a job to go to etc . So, they are happy with their lives and "religion" is only a part of their personal life- or their own community.

In the same way, any muslim who is well off in any democratic nation in this world is not and will not plan to attack the "Infidels" even while following their religion. Why? - because they have everything they need. With this we can conclude that it is not the religion that is to blame.

Unlike the utopian view above, the world is not perfect.

Most people in countries like pakistan and Afghanistan have no food to eat, no good life, no freedom, no important existence and the power hungry leaders make people in other nations into their own scapegoats and give big speeches about how their lives are being destroyed by the Americans- or whoever they choose to blame. The same things are starting to happen in our country too.
So, the world is not exactly a wonderful place where everyone is having perfect lives and the distress caused due to the lack of basic necessities will cause one group to go crazy.- we usually see that when terrorists attack.

So, its not like all the muslims want to kill you. it is only those who are hungry who want to kill you. So we need to blame the system, not the religion.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Myvoicecounts
I am sorry, I will try to make my points more clear,
So far what I have done is try to show you how ignorant it seems to just judge an entire race of people by some lines written in their scriptures.

Understandable, but also an impossible task. When an entire nation is more than predominantly muslim, you HAVE to take it as a muslim nation ESPECIALLY when that is the belief ystem in government.

What I am trying to say here is that if they are going to kill you because their religion says so - which is to kill all infidels, then you and i should be right now should be attacked by the american muslims , but they are not attacking and neither are we running,

American muslims and iraqi or palestinian mulisims are all muslims following the same text. We ARE being attacked by other muslims.

why?- because they have everything that you and I do: They have food to eat, they have a place to live and a job to go to etc . So, they are happy with their lives and "religion" is only a part of their personal life- or their own community.

So, as I have claimed and now you admit, they don't follow their text. They put their beliefs aside. Therefore, they cannot be muslims, can they?

In the same way, any muslim who is well off in any democratic nation in this world is not and will not plan to attack the "Infidels" even while following their religion. Why? - because they have everything they need. With this we can conclude that it is not the religion that is to blame.

Rediculous and completely unfounded.....AND in direct opposition to the people who are in America, convert to islam, and join the war AGAINST America. -Which has been publicly shown to have happened several times so far.

Unlike the utopian view above, the world is not perfect.

Most people in countries like pakistan and Afghanistan have no food to eat, no good life, no freedom, no important existence and the power hungry leaders make people in other nations into their own scapegoats and give big speeches about how their lives are being destroyed by the Americans- or whoever they choose to blame. The same things are starting to happen in our country too.
So, the world is not exactly a wonderful place where everyone is having perfect lives and the distress caused due to the lack of basic necessities will cause one group to go crazy.- we usually see that when terrorists attack.

So, its not like all the muslims want to kill you. it is only those who are hungry who want to kill you. So we need to blame the system, not the religion.

HA! People in America who are on the streets starving are not all killers. They don't have a book telling them to kill infidels.

Again, you are not telling the truth.
Hence, you may pick the label, but you ARE lying and spreading disinformation. Now you will feel insulted, and we have followed this back around full circle to the very reason you switched your screen name:

So you can be deceptive, gain converts, and continue to repopulate the following of the koran.

 

[Myvoicecounts]

"American muslims and iraqi or palestinian mulisims are all muslims following the same text. We ARE being attacked by other muslims."

: lol Oh yea they are after us now. Good one.

"So, as I have claimed and now you admit, they don't follow their text. They put their beliefs aside. Therefore, they cannot be muslims, can they?"

Where did I admit that they don't follow their own text...? All I said was their religion is their own personal business here in America. Ofcourse some extremely religious muslims will try to talk you into converting to Islam but they don't do it by pointing a gun at you.

"Ridiculous and completely unfounded.....AND in direct opposition to the people who are in America, convert to islam, and join the war AGAINST America. -Which has been publicly shown to have happened several times so far."

what are you talking about?

"HA! People in America who are on the streets starving are not all killers. They don't have a book telling them to kill infidels.

Again, you are not telling the truth.
Hence, you may pick the label, but you ARE lying and spreading disinformation. Now you will feel insulted, and we have followed this back around full circle to the very reason you switched your screen name:

So you can be deceptive, gain converts, and continue to repopulate the following of the koran."

:clap1: Good one again.
: : :

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Myvoicecounts
Where did I admit that they don't follow their own text...? All I said was their religion is their own personal business here in America. Ofcourse some extremely religious muslims will try to talk you into converting to Islam but they don't do it by pointing a gun at you.

Not admitted, but easily implied in the literal sense. If the book says kill people(i don't know if it does or not, never read it) and they claim to be muslims, but they're not killing people, they're not following the text.

P.s. just my interpretation of what he's trying to say. I mention it because whatever faith you are i don't think faith is something one can do half way.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bern80
Not admitted, but easily implied in the literal sense. If the book says kill people(i don't know if it does or not, never read it) and they claim to be muslims, but they're not killing people, they're not following the text.

P.s. just my interpretation of what he's trying to say. I mention it because whatever faith you are i don't think faith is something one can do half way.

Totally true.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

So, its not like all the muslims want to kill you. it is only those who are hungry who want to kill you. So we need to blame the system, not the religion.

So the "magnificent 19" as some of your imans call them were really just looking for a big mac?

Gimme a fucking break.

 

[Myvoicecounts]

"So the "magnificent 19" as some of your imans call them were really just looking for a big mac?

Gimme a fucking break."

Right...

The point here is that if they have the same facilities people usually do in America then they will stop with all the terrorism. Terrorism should not be fought with big armies with alot of our tax money dumped into them, but should be fought in a peaceful manner, making the world understand we are friends and we are more than just a military and economic power that is bossing everyone around.

To stop terrorism we need to change the system and how do you do that? - with more peaceful methods, so that not only the people who are getting freed from tyranny support "YOU" the whole world including "The supposed muslim freak supporters" will also support "you".

Thank you.