Hate Speech in Quran

[tommywho70x]

thank you.

i apologize for not responding to any of your insightful rhetorical questions on the here and now.

i'm somewhere right now where i don't have the privacy and control over the background noise to give your questions the thought they deserve.

maybe another day we can get into the heaven and hell issues you're scratching at.

 

[Kalam]

Malcolm X was convinced of one thing, he changed his mind.

Is that suppose to be a picture of Malcolm X?

You're aware that the Nation of Islam is a black nationalist group, not a Muslim group, correct? Malcolm X left the NOI and became a Sunni because he rejected the NOI's racist beliefs and because Elijah Muhammad was a hypocrite. He died a Sunni Muslim.

 

[Madeline]

Of course there are Holy Muslims. There are Muslims whose lives have been transformed by their faith. There are people who are on a spiritual quest who convert to the Muslim Faith. Malcolm X, for starters.

Malcolm X was convinced of one thing, he changed his mind.

Is that suppose to be a picture of Malcolm X?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcFUqObRDkc]YouTube - Malcolm X - The Real Reason why he Exit the Nation of Islam - He knew that they gonna Kill him[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt5TY6QBk8o&NR=1]YouTube - Farrakhan exposed: Who really assassinated Malcolm x?[/ame]

Ya, I thought it was Malcom X, Pixie Stix. I'm not sure, now that you ask, just who it is so I changed the image.

There isn't a whole lot of doubt that Elijah Muhammad's followers assasinated Malcom X. The men charged and convicted of the murder, Talmadge Hayer, Norman Butler and Khalil Islam (formerly Thomas 15X Johnson), were all followers of the Nation of Islam. Malcolm X was shot to death in an auditorium filled with such people and it is not likely (though it is possible) that a person unaffliated with the group entered and approached closely enough to kill him.

Islam now claims that the FBI colluded with Muhammed and Farrakan to frame him and the others, and that some of the real killers have never been found. He claims that Malcolm X was killed by Talmadge Hayer and a group of five New Jersey men who were all acting at the behest of the FBI, but it is very hard to believe that Muhammed had nothing to do with the tragedy.

You should read the Islam interview, Pixie Stix. If what he claims is true and he is innocent, the man's faith in God and the Koran are astounding.

Who Really Killed Malcolm X? An Exclusive Interview with Khalil Islam Who Spent 22 Years in Prison for His Murder | American Gangster | Black Power

 

[blu]

fail troll is fail

 

[tommywho70x]

Malcolm X was convinced of one thing, he changed his mind.

Is that suppose to be a picture of Malcolm X?

You're aware that the Nation of Islam is a black nationalist group, not a Muslim group, correct? Malcolm X left the NOI and became a Sunni because he rejected the NOI's racist beliefs and because Elijah Muhammad was a hypocrite. He died a Sunni Muslim.

are you saying that they do not practice anything even resembling what goes on in a mosque?

i never heard that before. i knew about the nationalist aspect, but i always figured they have temples so they must be doing religious stuff inside.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

are you saying that they do not practice anything even resembling what goes on in a mosque?

i never heard that before. i knew about the nationalist aspect, but i always figured they have temples so they must be doing religious stuff inside.

They use the same words, and even the same book, but they are not the same. That is the beauty of hiding behind the word religion, you can get away with anything because some people want to think nice thoughts and feel spiritual by claiming all religions are basically the same, and thus insult all religions. I don't usually recommend the ADL as a source, but they are a good starting point if you want to learn about NoI.

Nation of Islam

 

[Madeline]

As best I can tell, the Muslim faith is not hierarchial like the RCC. There seems to be no Chief Muslim In Charge. Apparently, Muhammed was free to design the Nation of Islam to suit without fear of condemnation by traditional Muslims.

Most likely it was always a hyper-political organization with a religious bent. I can remember being accosted in the ghetto during high school by scarey looking black men in suits, asking (?) for a quarter for the movement's newspaper. All I can recall about what it said was a bunch of bad drawings depicting white women as the devil. I had trouble then imagining why we getting kicked in the teeth. I am still not clear about that.

These days I don't think Farrakan even bothers to pretend he's anything other than political. I'd imagine those who converted to the Muslim faith under Muhammed later had to find actual mosques to worship in, as they received so little religious instruction or worship service from the Nation of Islam...but in truth, I don't know anyone involved with them anymore. Given the racist views they espose, I doubt I ever will.

 

[Barb]

Malcolm X was convinced of one thing, he changed his mind.

Is that suppose to be a picture of Malcolm X?

You're aware that the Nation of Islam is a black nationalist group, not a Muslim group, correct? Malcolm X left the NOI and became a Sunni because he rejected the NOI's racist beliefs and because Elijah Muhammad was a hypocrite. He died a Sunni Muslim.

are you saying that they do not practice anything even resembling what goes on in a mosque?

i never heard that before. i knew about the nationalist aspect, but i always figured they have temples so they must be doing religious stuff inside.

I think everyone should be taken as they present and conduct themselves. Some NOI members in my old community (what I like to call home) were often talking angrily, and others took an interest in the workings of the community, tried to make it better for everyone, and encouraged anyone who did the same in any small way they could. Even me, a female, a white female, hanging upside down scraping and then painting my own front porch got smiles and a kind word.

 

[mystic]

I was making a tongue in cheek comment to a personal friend about her chiding me about not understanding religion. The rest of my comment was directed to the "truth" that not all paths lead to God. People are justified in finding and worshiping any god they want, but they are not justified in trivializing every belief system on Earth.

It is you who wants to trivialize belief systems. Unless, apparently, they happen to be the right one. At least according to you.

Have you ever seriously considered the implications of the statement that all paths lead to God? That is not asking us to accept that people have the right to believe what they want, it is asking us to accept that He is an idiot. Why would God give equal validity to an Atheist who rejects His existence and Mother Theresa? Why would he give both Hitler and Buddha in the after life? Why would he give equal billing to to a doctor and Charles Manson?

Because all things come from God and all things go back to God. There is no God but God and there is nothing but God, as the Sufis like to say. If God is omniscient, as I and may others believe, then God is fully aware of the life path to be taken by both Hitler and Mother Theresa. Both souls are examples of a life lived. How do you define yourself in context to them? What lessons have they taught you?

If we make distinctions between the actions of certain people why should we expect less from the Creator of the Universe, no matter how we perceive him? I am not going to attack people based on their religion on this board, but I will attack anyone who thinks that all paths are equally valid because they all lead to the same God. Evil does not lead to good, and evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good.

You believe your way and I'll believe mine. Why should you attack anyone who's beliefs are not the same as yours? I suppose it is because you have a vested interest in being right? Evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good? Wow. So I suppose if someone is about to murder your child, you would not kill them to stop them? You wouldn't cold-blooded murder an innocent to save all of humanity? Murder is evil, is it not? And I guess also by your statement that you believe we shouldn't have entered into WWII. We should have let the Nazis continue. After all, war is definately evil. And evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good.
Don't make the mistake of being so black and white.

All paths do not lead to God, some of them have to lead to his opposite.

So says Quantum Windbag. Keeper of the Faith and Teacher of God's laws. No, but really. What is the opposite of God? Satan? What is one doesn't believe in Satan? What if there is no opposite of God? What is there is only the perceived absence of God?
I read something interesting yesterday how there is no such thing as cold. There is only the absence of heat. The opposites of this world...what if they are only degrees, or presence and absence, of the same thing? Hot and cold, up and down, light and dark, good and evil...

Note: You will also see me challenging anyone who espouses a belief that does not fit known facts.

How short-sighted of you. Don't you realize that many of our "known facts" had at one time been considered absolutely ridiculous? After all, anyone can plainly see that the world is flat. Until something can be explained by science, it is considered paranormal.
Really, I shouldn't have to explain these things to you.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The prejudice against Muslims continues to blow my mind each day. Muslim does not equal terrorist. Yes, some terrorists are Muslim. Just like some abortion bombers are Christian. Not all Christians are terrorists either.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is you who wants to trivialize belief systems. Unless, apparently, they happen to be the right one. At least according to you.

What right one am I advocating? Unless you can point to it you cannot claim I am advocating anything.

Because all things come from God and all things go back to God. There is no God but God and there is nothing but God, as the Sufis like to say. If God is omniscient, as I and may others believe, then God is fully aware of the life path to be taken by both Hitler and Mother Theresa. Both souls are examples of a life lived. How do you define yourself in context to them? What lessons have they taught you?

What evidence do you have that God is omniscient? Even if He is omniscient, does that make him omnipotent? It is entirely possible that you are correct that God is omniscient, and still unable to control every even in the universe. In order to justify your circular reasoning God would have to be both good and evil, and cancel Himself out, thus negating your argument.

You believe your way and I'll believe mine. Why should you attack anyone who's beliefs are not the same as yours? I suppose it is because you have a vested interest in being right? Evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good? Wow. So I suppose if someone is about to murder your child, you would not kill them to stop them? You wouldn't cold-blooded murder an innocent to save all of humanity? Murder is evil, is it not? And I guess also by your statement that you believe we shouldn't have entered into WWII. We should have let the Nazis continue. After all, war is definately evil. And evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good.
Don't make the mistake of being so black and white.

There is a major dofference between killing for personal gain and killing in the defense of oneself or others. One shows contempt for life itself, and thus contempt for oneself, and the other shows a reverence for life. If you are truly spiritual you understand this difference. If you do not, then you hold yourself, and everyone else, in contempt, and reject the concepts that spiritualism embodies.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can tie me in knots with paradoxes, parodoxes do not exist outside the minds of small men.

So says Quantum Windbag. Keeper of the Faith and Teacher of God's laws. No, but really. What is the opposite of God? Satan? What is one doesn't believe in Satan? What if there is no opposite of God? What is there is only the perceived absence of God?
I read something interesting yesterday how there is no such thing as cold. There is only the absence of heat. The opposites of this world...what if they are only degrees, or presence and absence, of the same thing? Hot and cold, up and down, light and dark, good and evil...

Mocking so becomes you. You are attempting to mock beliefs you think I have, and are missing my true beliefs by so much that we are in different universes.

God is life, and I am pretty sure that the opposite of life is is not Satan. Satan would actually be a creation of God, thus incapable of being His opposite. Nice try though.

Cold is the natural state of the universe, as any scientist who understands basic physics would tell you. Entropy always increases, so hot is the state which is not natural, not cold. However you define their interaction, this basic truth remains.

Any other feeble semantic traps you want to try and spring on me?

How short-sighted of you. Don't you realize that many of our "known facts" had at one time been considered absolutely ridiculous? After all, anyone can plainly see that the world is flat. Until something can be explained by science, it is considered paranormal.
Really, I shouldn't have to explain these things to you.

Funny, I thought that anyone that actually looked at the world could see it is round. If you look at the horizon you can see it is plainly not straight, and if you watch as a ship moves off to sea you will see that it slowly sinks into the water, with the top of mast the last thing you see. that means that everything you were taught about known facts that were proved wrong by modern science is wrong, not me.

Just because science cannot explain something, that does not make it paranormal. Science cannot explain gravity, or the formation of stars and planets, are they paranormal? I shouldn't have to explain these things to you, the fact that I do indicates something to me. Does it indicate the same thing to you?

 

[mystic]

What right one am I advocating? Unless you can point to it you cannot claim I am advocating anything.

Use your common sense. If you say, (as you did!) that all belief systems are not equal, then obviously you are advocating some over others.

What evidence do you have that God is omniscient? Even if He is omniscient, does that make him omnipotent? It is entirely possible that you are correct that God is omniscient, and still unable to control every even in the universe. In order to justify your circular reasoning God would have to be both good and evil, and cancel Himself out, thus negating your argument.

Ah, but what if God is all good and it is the illusion that God is not present that gives rise to the concept of evil? What if evil is a human construct?
I'm not sure what you meant by, "It is entirely possible that you are correct that God is omniscient, and still unable to control every even in the universe." Did you mean "everything in the universe"? If so, I believe there are natural laws in place and not everything is a conscious act of God. But realize that I am coming from the belief that the universe and everything else, known and unknown, is the body of God. So compare it to a human body. Some actions are involuntary (natural laws) such as breathing and heart beating. Other actions are entirely conscious decisions, such as picking the nose.

There is a major dofference between killing for personal gain and killing in the defense of oneself or others. One shows contempt for life itself, and thus contempt for oneself, and the other shows a reverence for life. If you are truly spiritual you understand this difference. If you do not, then you hold yourself, and everyone else, in contempt, and reject the concepts that spiritualism embodies.

You are the one who said, evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good. I merely showed you the error of your words.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can tie me in knots with paradoxes, parodoxes do not exist outside the minds of small men.

Life is a paradox. Think outside the box.

I'm a poet and I didn't know it.

Mocking so becomes you.

Oh, why thank you. I happen to think so myself.

You are attempting to mock beliefs you think I have, and are missing my true beliefs by so much that we are in different universes.

Actually, I'm not sure where you get this idea of that I am mocking beliefs that you have. That was not my intent. Other then the belief that all faiths are not equal. Which is of course the focus of this discussion.

God is life, and I am pretty sure that the opposite of life is is not Satan. Satan would actually be a creation of God, thus incapable of being His opposite. Nice try though.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said, "What if one doesn't believe in Satan?"

I agree with you that God is life. My whole point was that there is no opposite of God. Only the illusion of it.

Cold is the natural state of the universe, as any scientist who understands basic physics would tell you. Entropy always increases, so hot is the state which is not natural, not cold. However you define their interaction, this basic truth remains..

Like I said, there is no such thing as cold. Google it if you must.

Any other feeble semantic traps you want to try and spring on me?

Only in response to weak premises.

How short-sighted of you. Don't you realize that many of our "known facts" had at one time been considered absolutely ridiculous? After all, anyone can plainly see that the world is flat. Until something can be explained by science, it is considered paranormal.
Really, I shouldn't have to explain these things to you.

Funny, I thought that anyone that actually looked at the world could see it is round. If you look at the horizon you can see it is plainly not straight, and if you watch as a ship moves off to sea you will see that it slowly sinks into the water, with the top of mast the last thing you see. that means that everything you were taught about known facts that were proved wrong by modern science is wrong, not me.

Apparently, not anyone who looked at the world could see it was round. And as far as the mast being the last thing you see, perhaps that's why they thought the world had an edge you could drop off.

Just because science cannot explain something, that does not make it paranormal. Science cannot explain gravity, or the formation of stars and planets, are they paranormal? I shouldn't have to explain these things to you, the fact that I do indicates something to me. Does it indicate the same thing to you?

Perhaps we can't "explain" gravity, or even lightning for that matter, but we do know enough to realize that they're part of the natural world. You are the one who said, "You will also see me challenging anyone who espouses a belief that does not fit known facts" The "known facts" of 500 years ago are very different from "known facts" today. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Use your common sense. If you say, (as you did!) that all belief systems are not equal, then obviously you are advocating some over others.

Or I could just believe that anyone who does not think is an idiot. Advocating means to imply in favor of something, and until you can point to a belief I am speaking in favor of I am not advocating anything.

Ah, but what if God is all good and it is the illusion that God is not present that gives rise to the concept of evil? What if evil is a human construct?
I'm not sure what you meant by, "It is entirely possible that you are correct that God is omniscient, and still unable to control every even in the universe." Did you mean "everything in the universe"? If so, I believe there are natural laws in place and not everything is a conscious act of God. But realize that I am coming from the belief that the universe and everything else, known and unknown, is the body of God. So compare it to a human body. Some actions are involuntary (natural laws) such as breathing and heart beating. Other actions are entirely conscious decisions, such as picking the nose.

Then you clearly do not understand theology, and I can see why you think I am doing something I am not. You should not use terms you do not understand

Omniscient

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

You challenged me to show why, if God is omniscient, evil exists. You are still trying to argue that evil is an entirely human concept. If it is only a human concept, it does not exist, and neither does good, so anything you try to prove as a result of its existence fails. If it exists, then it would be counter to God, who you claim is entirely good.

If not everything is a direct result of conscious thought of God, then you can take a path that leads away from him. If God treats everything we do as equally valid as a path to him, then he is not good, which makes him worthless to attempt to find, and thus not God, because God would have real value if he exists.

You are the one who said, evil is always evil, even if it is intended for good. I merely showed you the error of your words.

No, I showed you the error of yours, you just refuse to see it.

Life is a paradox. Think outside the box.

It exists, therefore is not a paradox. Parodoxes are a result of a lack of understanding, and do not really exist outside the box. When our understanding of the universe improves paradoxes are resolved.

Actually, I'm not sure where you get this idea of that I am mocking beliefs that you have. That was not my intent. Other then the belief that all faiths are not equal. Which is of course the focus of this discussion.

How can all beliefs be equal?

Perhaps you missed the part where I said, "What if one doesn't believe in Satan?"

I didn't, I just explained what Satan is, if he exists, making him irrelevant even if he exists.

I agree with you that God is life. My whole point was that there is no opposite of God. Only the illusion of it.

Life is the illusion.

Like I said, there is no such thing as cold. Google it if you must.

As applied to temperature, that is entirely correct. My point is that we could have easily defined them the other way around, then heat would ne the absence of cold.

Apparently, not anyone who looked at the world could see it was round. And as far as the mast being the last thing you see, perhaps that's why they thought the world had an edge you could drop off.

They only thought that because they didn't really look at it.

Perhaps we can't "explain" gravity, or even lightning for that matter, but we do know enough to realize that they're part of the natural world. You are the one who said, "You will also see me challenging anyone who espouses a belief that does not fit known facts" The "known facts" of 500 years ago are very different from "known facts" today. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Not at all. It doesn't matter that we know things now we did not 500 years ago, those are not the facts I am talking about. If someone wants to claim that the Bible is divinely inspired I will have no problem with them saying so, because that is an opinion. If they further want to claim that the Bible is word for word the same way it was when Jesus was alive, they will face a challenge from me, because the facts that are know to anyone who looks disprove that statement.

If you want to argue that at some point in the future will be proven wrong, then feel free, but in the meantime I will work with the world as it is.

 

[syrenn]

How short-sighted of you. Don't you realize that many of our "known facts" had at one time been considered absolutely ridiculous? After all, anyone can plainly see that the world is flat. Until something can be explained by science, it is considered paranormal.
Really, I shouldn't have to explain these things to you.

I cant help myself

No, you may not need to explain that the world is round to QW, but you may need to explain it to islam.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc[/ame]

Beyond here there be dragons you know.

 

[Kalam]

No, you may not need to explain that the world is round to QW, but you may need to explain it to islam.

A person on Iraqi TV is not "Islam." Also, MEMRI is a Zionist propaganda outlet.

 

[syrenn]

No, you may not need to explain that the world is round to QW, but you may need to explain it to islam.

A person on Iraqi TV is not "Islam." Also, MEMRI is a Zionist propaganda outlet.

Yes, I agree he is not islam. Nor do I think or believe that many muslims believe the world is flat. But it does speak to how some take the teachings of islam to extremes.

 

[Kalam]

No, you may not need to explain that the world is round to QW, but you may need to explain it to islam.

A person on Iraqi TV is not "Islam." Also, MEMRI is a Zionist propaganda outlet.

Yes, I agree he is not islam. Nor do I think or believe that many muslims believe the world is flat. But it does speak to how some take the teachings of islam to extremes.

I don't think it has anything to do with the teachings of Islam; the Qur'an doesn't comment explicitly on the actual shape of the Earth regardless of what MEMRI or the man in the video may think.

 

[syrenn]

A person on Iraqi TV is not "Islam." Also, MEMRI is a Zionist propaganda outlet.

Yes, I agree he is not islam. Nor do I think or believe that many muslims believe the world is flat. But it does speak to how some take the teachings of islam to extremes.

I don't think it has anything to do with the teachings of Islam; the Qur'an doesn't comment explicitly on the actual shape of the Earth regardless of what MEMRI or the man in the video may think.

Understood. I can not confirm one way or the other. The man in this video does believe it to be so however.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yes, I agree he is not islam. Nor do I think or believe that many muslims believe the world is flat. But it does speak to how some take the teachings of islam to extremes.

I don't think it has anything to do with the teachings of Islam; the Qur'an doesn't comment explicitly on the actual shape of the Earth regardless of what MEMRI or the man in the video may think.

Understood. I can not confirm one way or the other. The man in this video does believe it to be so however.

And he has as much right to his foolish belief as Kalam does to his that the Quran is word for word perfect from the time of Muhammad.

 

[syrenn]

I don't think it has anything to do with the teachings of Islam; the Qur'an doesn't comment explicitly on the actual shape of the Earth regardless of what MEMRI or the man in the video may think.

Understood. I can not confirm one way or the other. The man in this video does believe it to be so however.

And he has as much right to his foolish belief as Kalam does to his that the Quran is word for word perfect from the time of Muhammad.

Agreed. As I said I cannot confirm one way or the other.

It is however an interesting video and a glimpse into psyche.