Hagel: Iraq growing more like Vietnam

[Theregular]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska on Thursday said the United States is "getting more and more bogged down" in Iraq and stood by his comments that the White House is disconnected from reality and losing the war.

The longer U.S. forces remain in Iraq, he said, the more it begins to resemble the Vietnam war.

Hagel mocked Vice President Dick Cheney's assertion in June that the insurgency in Iraq was in its "last throes," saying the U.S. death toll has risen amid insurgent attacks.

"Maybe the vice president can explain the increase in casualties we're taking," the Nebraskan told CNN.

"If that's winning, then he's got a different definition of winning than I do."

On Thursday, Cheney told a veterans group that "Iraq is a critical front in the war on terror, and victory there is critical to the future security of the U.S."

"Every man and woman who fights and sacrifices in this war is serving a just and noble cause," Cheney told the 73rd National Convention of the Military Order of the Purple Heart in Springfield, Missouri.

Hagel, an Army infantry squad leader during the Vietnam war, sits on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and supported the October 2002 resolution authorizing military action against Iraq.

But he said the United States risks losing more public support for the conflict amid a rising cost in blood and money.

"The casualties we're taking, the billion dollars a week we're putting in there, the kind of commitment we've got -- we're not going to be able to sustain it," he said.

Iraq and Vietnam still have more differences than similarities, he said, but "there is a parallel emerging."

"The longer we stay in Iraq, the more similarities will start to develop, meaning essentially that we are getting more and more bogged down, taking more and more casualties, more and more heated dissension and debate in the United States," Hagel said.

Hagel also did not back away from comments he made in June to U.S. News & World Report that "the White House is completely disconnected from reality" and "the reality is that we're losing in Iraq."

"It gives me no great pleasure to have said that and to say that now," he said Thursday.

He said the U.S. death toll has continued to rise "at a very significant rate -- more dead, more wounded, less electricity in Iraq, less oil being pumped in Iraq, more insurgent attacks, more insurgents coming across the border, more corruption in the government."

A total of 1,861 American troops have died in the war since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003, including four who were killed Thursday by a roadside bomb in Samarra. (Full story)

Cheney said in June that the insurgency is "in the last throes," and he predicted that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office. (Full story)

In the CNN interview Thursday, Hagel mentioned Cheney's comments about the insurgency and quickly added, "The facts speak for themselves."

Hagel did say he agrees with President Bush that the United States should not set a timetable for troop withdrawal, but he also predicted the United States would begin "withdrawing troops from Iraq next year."

"I don't like time frames because it gives the president no flexibility, and I think you always must have flexibility in these things and a judgment call by the president," he said.

Ultimately, he said, it's up to the Iraqis to control their nation's fate.

"That means they are either going to have to be in a position sometime next year to really step up in governing themselves, defending themselves, supporting themselves, or we can't continue to stay there indefinitely," Hagel said.

The next six months will be "very critical" in Iraq, he said.

"Not just the constitution writing, referendum, the election -- but also within that six months' period we're going to see whether the Iraqis are really going to be capable of defending themselves," he said.

On another Iraq-related issue, Hagel said Bush made the wrong decision by not meeting again with Cindy Sheehan, a mother of a U.S. soldier killed in Iraq who has camped outside the president's Texas ranch. (Full story)

Sheehan "deserves some consideration, and I think that should have been done right from the beginning," Hagel said, noting that Bush did meet with her shortly after her son's death last year.

"I think the wise course of action, the compassionate course of action, the better course of action would have been to immediately invite her in to the ranch. It should have been done when this whole thing started. Listen to her."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/18/hagel.iraq

 

[ThomasPaine]

as "officially political dead meat".. He's toast as far as any presidential hopes and I wouldn't be surprised to see him lose his Senate seat. Is now known as a "media grovelling bitch".

 

[no1tovote4]

To put it in perspective, Theregular, Chuck Hagel is viewed by Republicans much like Zell Miller is by Democrats. He is a RINO.

 

[Zhukov]

Yes, this post argues against your premise Regular because Hagel is a fool.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

d regular, YAWNNNNNN

 

[Gunny]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/18/hagel.iraq

What he means is the left is doing their damnedest to make it so, along with the likes of you. If it's anti-US and obviously untrue, you'll damned-sure post it as gospel.

YOU are the reason there is war. You and the idiots that think like you. You are so steeped in your hatred of anything Western/Christian/American, that you don't even care what is the truth. If it's about hating us, you're there. The more you post, the more I'm convinced you're a card-carrying member of AQ. But then, stupid as they are, they at least have some balls. You just tell lies on the internet.

If you didn't have that bathtowel on your head so damned tight, you could probably get some oxygen into your three little brain cells and maybe -- just maybe -- see what a moron you are.

 

[Theregular]

What he means is the left is doing their damnedest to make it so, along with the likes of you. If it's anti-US and obviously untrue, you'll damned-sure post it as gospel.

YOU are the reason there is war. You and the idiots that think like you. You are so steeped in your hatred of anything Western/Christian/American, that you don't even care what is the truth. If it's about hating us, you're there. The more you post, the more I'm convinced you're a card-carrying member of AQ. But then, stupid as they are, they at least have some balls. You just tell lies on the internet.

If you didn't have that bathtowel on your head so damned tight, you could probably get some oxygen into your three little brain cells and maybe -- just maybe -- see what a moron you are.

1- I am not anti-US or anti-american, I am anti-current US policies.
2- Its not about hating you, I dont know where all of this is coming from, I posted this piece of news to find you attacking me, why is that? maybe because I am showing the rest of the non-idiots like you the truth?

Replies from you and the other replies clearly shows what kind of a person are you, your replies seem to be coming from a 12 year old, the fact that your not a 12 year old makes it even worse...

 

[Hobbit]

1- I am not anti-US or anti-american, I am anti-current US policies.
2- Its not about hating you, I dont know where all of this is coming from, I posted this piece of news to find you attacking me, why is that? maybe because I am showing the rest of the non-idiots like you the truth?

Replies from you and the other replies clearly shows what kind of a person are you, your replies seem to be coming from a 12 year old, the fact that your not a 12 year old makes it even worse...

Ok, either you hate America or you're stupid. You say you just disagree with current policy, but then rather than try to provide suggestions and ideas for a policy change, you simply try to undermine anything the current administration is trying to do. This doesn't help America change, it only weakens her against her enemies.

FACT: You may not have wanted us to go into Iraq, but we're there now, and we can't leave until the job's done, or that whole country will go to Hell in a handbasket before you can say "spread the love." All this anti-war, Vietnam bullcrap isn't going to get us to leave. Even if it did, it would be at the cost of the lives of thousands if not millions of Iraqis, and then we'd have yet another country with nothing but bitter, vile hatred of us. Really good plan, genius. Now, this crap isn't going to get us to leave, but do you know what it does do? It convinces the terrorists that they can win, raising their morale. It convinces the troops that they can lose, lowering their morale. It causes mindless idiots who believe this crap to actually start hating troops, like during Vietnam, lowering their morale further. It also causes such an obstructionist view in congress that the President has to spend more time fighting the damn Democrats than the terrorists. The longer this tactic goes on, the longer we'll be in Iraq because if the President is actually supported on this issue, we can concentrate more on how to finish the job rather than how to sneak wartime bills past the Democrats.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

1- I am not anti-US or anti-american, I am anti-current US policies.
2- Its not about hating you, I dont know where all of this is coming from, I posted this piece of news to find you attacking me, why is that? maybe because I am showing the rest of the non-idiots like you the truth?

Replies from you and the other replies clearly shows what kind of a person are you, your replies seem to be coming from a 12 year old, the fact that your not a 12 year old makes it even worse...

You're a lying pussy with net balls. In another post you attacked US policy in vietnam, so that means you have been against US policy for 40 years minimum, which means YOU ARE AN AMERICAN HATER, YOU ARE ANTI USA.

 

[archangel]

I will give Hagel two points....Being a VN era veteran and he being a squad leader in the US Army during the same conflict he is correct in his assessment that this war has some very close similarities with the VN conflict...he is also correct by chastizing the VP Dick Cheney...what does he really know about combat...after all he set on the bench during the VN era...working his way up the economic food chain with a marriage and college deferrment...

I do disagree with Hagel in reference to GW meeting again with "Cindy"...this would be a very bad precedent!

BTW....I believe Hagel is refering to the political intervention in the Iraq war as it was the downfall and cause of the US cutting and running from the VN conflict...why he is taking this stance now is beyond my comprehension!

 

[ThomasPaine]

I will give Hagel two points....Being a VN era veteran and he being a squad leader in the US Army during the same conflict he is correct in his assessment that this war has some very close similarities with the VN conflict...he is also correct by chastizing the VP Dick Cheney...what does he really know about combat...after all he set on the bench during the VN era...working his way up the economic food chain with a marriage and college deferrment...

I do disagree with Hagel in reference to GW meeting again with "Cindy"...this would be a very bad precedent!

BTW....I believe Hagel is refering to the political intervention in the Iraq war as it was the downfall and cause of the US cutting and running from the VN conflict...why he is taking this stance now is beyond my comprehension!

comes even slightly close is perhaps the vietcong being akin to the iraqi diehard terrorists. But the vc had backing of N. Vietnam and thus the USSR and Red China. Really there are NO comparisons to Vietnam.. No superpower backing our enemy. No ideology backing our enemy. No direct military confrontation with US forces as in Vietnam. No discernable enemy military force. In short no corrolary to the Vietnam war at all. Tell me in what manner you see them as similar. I'm willing to be convinced but only with solid analysis. Frankly I don't think the two have one whit in common except the United States is involved and the left can't wait to declare defeat and quit..

 

[archangel]

comes even slightly close is perhaps the vietcong being akin to the iraqi diehard terrorists. But the vc had backing of N. Vietnam and thus the USSR and Red China. Really there are NO comparisons to Vietnam.. No superpower backing our enemy. No ideology backing our enemy. No direct military confrontation with US forces as in Vietnam. No discernable enemy military force. In short no corrolary to the Vietnam war at all. Tell me in what manner you see them as similar. I'm willing to be convinced but only with solid analysis. Frankly I don't think the two have one whit in common except the United States is involved and the left can't wait to declare defeat and quit..

The VC"VietCong" affectionately known as "Charlie" were a militia much like (Islam Terrorist) supported by the NVA...North Vietnamise Army(regulars) and a tremendous fighting force! Who were supported by China and Russia..

As for similarities this is in fact a political war...same as Vietnam...It is costing the US our Treasury along with continuing loss in military lives...It is becoming a unpopular war...much like Vietnam...Political intervention is causing the Generals to bow to political whims...thus causing us to become less effective from a military standpoint...much like Vietnam...The left is again massing celebrites to denounce the war and troops...much like Vietnam...there appears to be no end in site...much like Vietnam!

The end result as it appears as of now will be a Radical Islam form of government aligned with Iran...much like Vietnam being aligned with China and a communist form of repressed government...I could go on and on..but I believe I gave you enough to see my drift!

side note: In closing (IMO) the politicians should stay the hell out of the way and the President should give his generals the order to do whatever it takes to end this conflict...This would avoid another Vietnam ending!

 

[ThomasPaine]

The VC"VietCong" affectionately known as "Charlie" were a militia much like (Islam Terrorist) supported by the NVA...North Vietnamise Army(regulars) and a tremendous fighting force! Who were supported by China and Russia..

As for similarities this is in fact a political war...same as Vietnam...It is costing the US our Treasury along with continuing loss in military lives...It is becoming a unpopular war...much like Vietnam...Political intervention is causing the Generals to bow to political whims...thus causing us to become less effective from a military standpoint...much like Vietnam...The left is again massing celebrites to denounce the war and troops...much like Vietnam...there appears to be no end in site...much like Vietnam!

The end result as it appears as of now will be a Radical Islam form of government aligned with Iran...much like Vietnam being aligned with China and a communist form of repressed government...I could go on and on..but I believe I gave you enough to see my drift!

side note: In closing (IMO) the politicians should stay the hell out of the way and the President should give his generals the order to do whatever it takes to end this conflict...This would avoid another Vietnam ending!

Are the insurgents like the VC? I don't think they are similar in many respects save that they are both underground. The VC would come out and attack Americans. The Iraqis prefer to be cowards and bomb innocents as well as military.
Is the war becoming unpopular, yes with some but nowhere near Vietnam proportions. The US lost 58,000 dead in Vietnam, Iraq is what 1800?

This is a political war? In terms of what? It isn't Democracy versus communism. This is an insurgency by a small group in Iraq with aid and personel from other nations. Political? I don't see that at all.

I agree the generals are bowing to politics at home but since when, if ever, has that not been the case in a war the United States has been involved in.

I disagree that the outcome of being unknown is anywhere near what Vietnam was. N. Vietnam and the NVA were going to fight until victory or death. The insurgency we face has nowhere near the capacity of the NVA or VC and I doubt they have the staying power.

A radical islamic government aligned with Iran? Don't bet your boots on it. Iran is a shiite Persian nation. Iraq is shiite but with a large sunni population and is an arab nation. In addition Iraq and Iran fought a bloody war against one another in the 1980's that neither nation is apt to readily forget.

I agree with your last statement that the pols should allow the generals to control the situation in Iraq. But as to how to quell the insurgency that's a tough nut to crack. But giving the military a freer hand in attacking along or within the Syrian border would be a start.

 

[archangel]

Are the insurgents like the VC? I don't think they are similar in many respects save that they are both underground. The VC would come out and attack Americans. The Iraqis prefer to be cowards and bomb innocents as well as military.
Is the war becoming unpopular, yes with some but nowhere near Vietnam proportions. The US lost 58,000 dead in Vietnam, Iraq is what 1800?

This is a political war? In terms of what? It isn't Democracy versus communism. This is an insurgency by a small group in Iraq with aid and personel from other nations. Political? I don't see that at all.

I agree the generals are bowing to politics at home but since when, if ever, has that not been the case in a war the United States has been involved in.

I disagree that the outcome of being unknown is anywhere near what Vietnam was. N. Vietnam and the NVA were going to fight until victory or death. The insurgency we face has nowhere near the capacity of the NVA or VC and I doubt they have the staying power.

A radical islamic government aligned with Iran? Don't bet your boots on it. Iran is a shiite Persian nation. Iraq is shiite but with a large sunni population and is an arab nation. In addition Iraq and Iran fought a bloody war against one another in the 1980's that neither nation is apt to readily forget.

I agree with your last statement that the pols should allow the generals to control the situation in Iraq. But as to how to quell the insurgency that's a tough nut to crack. But giving the military a freer hand in attacking along or within the Syrian border would be a start.

I beg to differ...Islam terrorist have had staying power since and continuing from the "Ottoman Empire"... and as for a political war... sorry it is, as well as a religious war! Also the Sunni population is far less than the Shia's! Iran may not be Arab...however they share the same Islamic beliefs and this bonds them against infidels...what planet are you from...please explain why the Iranians are supplying bomb making material and allowing terrorist bases in Iran and allowing them to cross into Iraq? Simple they support Islam over infidels they will work out their differences if they win this war against us!

 

[Gunny]

1- I am not anti-US or anti-american, I am anti-current US policies.
2- Its not about hating you, I dont know where all of this is coming from, I posted this piece of news to find you attacking me, why is that? maybe because I am showing the rest of the non-idiots like you the truth?

Replies from you and the other replies clearly shows what kind of a person are you, your replies seem to be coming from a 12 year old, the fact that your not a 12 year old makes it even worse...

I hope my replies show you EXACTLY what kind of a person I am. I have not one atom of tolerance for US-hating, bottom-feeding murderous pieces of human shit who wage war against noncombatants -- and even LESS tolerance for lying fucks like you posting lies and doctored photos attempting to villify the US military and/or US policy.

It is the policy of radical Islam that is evil, not us. You lame fucks started this shit, so quit whining about reaping the rewards for that which you have sown.

Hell, if I WAS 12 years old THEN I'd be worried about the likes of you since women and children are your favorite targets. Fucking coward.

 

[manu1959]

1- I am not anti-US or anti-american, I am anti-current US policies.
2- Its not about hating you, I dont know where all of this is coming from, I posted this piece of news to find you attacking me, why is that? maybe because I am showing the rest of the non-idiots like you the truth?

Replies from you and the other replies clearly shows what kind of a person are you, your replies seem to be coming from a 12 year old, the fact that your not a 12 year old makes it even worse...

1- me too.....we should be killing them faster, we should stop giving out money to anyone, all compainers should be deported and the borders should be closed.

2-the idots are in charge .... how dumb does that make you and those you admire?

classic.....we disagree with you and suddenly we are stupid and 12......that which we despise and accuse others of is that which we are most gulity

 

[ThomasPaine]

I beg to differ...Islam terrorist have had staying power since and continuing from the "Ottoman Empire"... and as for a political war... sorry it is, as well as a religious war! Also the Sunni population is far less than the Shia's! Iran may not be Arab...however they share the same Islamic beliefs and this bonds them against infidels...what planet are you from...please explain why the Iranians are supplying bomb making material and allowing terrorist bases in Iran and allowing them to cross into Iraq? Simple they support Islam over infidels they will work out their differences if they win this war against us!

That both Iran and Iraq are islamic is not enough... too much generalization.. Islamic terrorist staying power? Once again give me an example..Political war.. please indicate in what respect...Iran is supplying materiel because it's cause a. is to thwart the great satan i.e. US at any cost...Your argument does not hold water admit it as such and further acknowledge that Iraq is not Vietnam.. Thank you and have a pleasant tommorow..

 

[Gunny]

That both Iran and Iraq are islamic is not enough... too much generalization.. Islamic terrorist staying power? Once again give me an example..Political war.. please indicate in what respect...Iran is supplying materiel because it's cause a. is to thwart the great satan i.e. US at any cost...Your argument does not hold water admit it as such and further acknowledge that Iraq is not Vietnam.. Thank you and have a pleasant tommorow..

The war is political in several levels. One, Iraqi internal politics. The separate factions are attacking one another because each wants to be top dog.

Two, tactical errors have been made on the part of US in succumbing to world politics, and the holier-than-thou sect here at home.

Three, one of Bush's given reasons for invading Iraq was to bring democracy to Iraq. So at least one goal of the war itself is political.

IMO, there ARE similarities between the Vietnam War and Iraq. That is not to say it IS the same war, nor that the outcome as proclaimed by the naysayers is inevitable.

 

[Zhukov]

There is one big similarity between the two and that is this:

The media, the liberals, the lefties, and the commies wanted us to lose then, and they want us to lose today. They are using precisely the same tactics now that they did then: "the war is criminal, the cost is too high, we are abusing and killing innocents"

Moreover, they propose the same solution: the complete abadonment of our commitents and the betrayal of our new found friends over there who have put their lives at risk to help themselves, their families, and their country by helping us.

Nevermind the fact that after we left South Vietnam the North Vietnamese Communists invaded, conquered, and then physically crushed South Vietnam and the South Vietnamese people, invaded Laos and exterminated tens of thousands of people, invaded Cambodia and exterminated hundreds of thousands of people, and were later involved in a war with China the casualties of which we will probably never know given the nature of those two countries.

The sum total of all this chaos most assuredly resulted in the deaths of more innocent people in South East Asia than the American involvement there ever did.

And that's what the media, the left, the liberals, and the commies are shooting for again today, this time in the Middle East: an increase in chaos, a decrease in personal freedom, and a magnitudes multiplication in the number of innocent people killed.

An ingnorant and egotistical worldview made all the more dangerous because of it's collossal stupidty.

 

[Hobbit]

Not to mention the fact that the left has such a rabid hatred for Bush that they'll do anything and everything to make him look bad. If we pulled out tomorrow, there'd be a slaughter, and the left would blame the whole thing on Bush and tell him it was the wrong decision, even though that's what they've been telling him to do for years.