Getting Emergency Care is Insane

[fncceo]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Actually, many police department have trained health care workers assigned to a police unit (where the police provide security for the mental health clinician). Their task is to attend calls that are assumed to be mental health related and make a judgement as to whether a not the subject of the call should be referred for further treatment. It's a very busy shift as they tend to work a larger area than a regular unit.

Anyone who threatens to harm himself (or someone else) automatically goes to hospital for further assessment. But, in other cases, it's the job of the clinician to say what follow on, if any, takes place.

Sounds like a great idea. I don't think it is very widespread though.

The obvious limitation is the number of available mental health care works and the number of police units available to take away from all other emergency responses and dedicated to a single task.

If police are defunded, this would probably be one of the first non-essential tasks to be eliminated.

And that money would be redirected to other agencies to deal with those things. If it's not the cop's job, why would it be funded by the cops?

Sending out the clinicians without police protection would save money. Although, I don't expect many clinicians would volunteer for that job.

 

[BULLDOG]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

I agree with you.

Freeing up cops to do the job they are trained for would save money for the cops, and that saved money could be diverted to pay for the mental health professionals, right?

Not sure were the sayings are. 70% of the cops patrol the streets. The rest are management, detectives, crime scene investigators, & resource officers. In Seattle, patrol staffing now is chronically low. The average squad size right now, for a patrol sector, is about half of what it was in the 1980s - when the city was much smaller. Precinct detectives are overwhelmed with cases to follow up on. Misdemeanor thefts typically get little follow up if at all. Due to primarily to lack of evidence few property crimes are ever prosecuted. For example, robberies where a shoplifter fought store security but didn't use a weapon, any theft, or property damage under $1000 (the limit in the law is $750) are not charged as felonies. Most property crimes reported by an individual are not investigated. Most drug arrests are not charged. Cops do not respond to traffic accident unless there is bodily injury or traffic is blocked.

Today the city council is meeting to consider a 50% cut in the police department budget.

Someone said the jails are full of people who shouldn't be there. Reducing that number would give a substantial cost savings.

Everything except police holding cells doesn't come under police budgets. They are department of corrections.

OK. Are you saying there is not a cost for the cops to deal with crazies? A cost that would be saved if those responsibilities were reassigned to someone else?

 

[fncceo]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

I agree with you.

Freeing up cops to do the job they are trained for would save money for the cops, and that saved money could be diverted to pay for the mental health professionals, right?

Not sure were the sayings are. 70% of the cops patrol the streets. The rest are management, detectives, crime scene investigators, & resource officers. In Seattle, patrol staffing now is chronically low. The average squad size right now, for a patrol sector, is about half of what it was in the 1980s - when the city was much smaller. Precinct detectives are overwhelmed with cases to follow up on. Misdemeanor thefts typically get little follow up if at all. Due to primarily to lack of evidence few property crimes are ever prosecuted. For example, robberies where a shoplifter fought store security but didn't use a weapon, any theft, or property damage under $1000 (the limit in the law is $750) are not charged as felonies. Most property crimes reported by an individual are not investigated. Most drug arrests are not charged. Cops do not respond to traffic accident unless there is bodily injury or traffic is blocked.

Today the city council is meeting to consider a 50% cut in the police department budget.

Someone said the jails are full of people who shouldn't be there. Reducing that number would give a substantial cost savings.

Everything except police holding cells doesn't come under police budgets. They are department of corrections.

OK. Are you saying there is not a cost for the cops to deal with crazies? A cost that would be saved if those responsibilities were reassigned to someone else?

Anyway you look at it, if a mental health incident is called in with the potential to be violent, police have to deal with it.

 

[Care4all]

My father got injured trying to install a new garage door opener for my older sister... the spring popped back and busted his hand and he was bleeding profusely, took over 30 plus stitches.....

My sister picked up mom next door, and drove dad to the ER, and they would not let my mom and sister in to the emergency room.... They gave a mask to dad, told my sister and mom to wait in the car, they took my sister's cell phone number and said they would call when he was done being stitched up....

This was in the Ocala region of Florida, low Covid cases, three months ago.

-------

Here in Maine, With very low COVID cases, I still have not been able to go in and see my doctor.... even my annual physical was done over the phone... two phone visits with her... for labs, I went to the health center, waited in the parking lot with hubby, an attendant came out and got my name.... we waited in the car...then the phlebotomist came out, gave me a mask, and she brought me to the room to draw blood, etc, then was escorted out.... didn't even have to pay...They said they'd bill me.

And I still can't get in to see my dentist...my appointment was pushed from March, to May, and now to September... And only for a cleaning.

My state has been super strict with this virus.... but I can't complain.... because we have likely had fewer cases and deaths, because of how strict our state has been...

 

[BULLDOG]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Actually, many police department have trained health care workers assigned to a police unit (where the police provide security for the mental health clinician). Their task is to attend calls that are assumed to be mental health related and make a judgement as to whether a not the subject of the call should be referred for further treatment. It's a very busy shift as they tend to work a larger area than a regular unit.

Anyone who threatens to harm himself (or someone else) automatically goes to hospital for further assessment. But, in other cases, it's the job of the clinician to say what follow on, if any, takes place.

Sounds like a great idea. I don't think it is very widespread though.

The obvious limitation is the number of available mental health care works and the number of police units available to take away from all other emergency responses and dedicated to a single task.

If police are defunded, this would probably be one of the first non-essential tasks to be eliminated.

And that money would be redirected to other agencies to deal with those things. If it's not the cop's job, why would it be funded by the cops?

Sending out the clinicians without police protection would save money. Although, I don't expect many clinicians would volunteer for that job.

Of course, some calls would require police backup, but many wouldn't. A clinician would be better able to tell when physical action should be taken too. Cops might mean well, but that is no substitute for actually knowing how to deal with a situation.

 

[Flopper]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

I don't know about the stress but I don't see any immediate substantial savings in personal cost by swapping cops for mental health professionals. The real savings comes from intervention, diagnosis, treatment, and rectifying some of the social problems so we start reducing crime and that would mean expanding the mental healthcare and social welfare infrastructure which does not come cheap.

I believe we should reduce the number of police by reducing the need; that is we attack the heart of the crime problem instead of just dealing with the results.

 

[fncceo]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Actually, many police department have trained health care workers assigned to a police unit (where the police provide security for the mental health clinician). Their task is to attend calls that are assumed to be mental health related and make a judgement as to whether a not the subject of the call should be referred for further treatment. It's a very busy shift as they tend to work a larger area than a regular unit.

Anyone who threatens to harm himself (or someone else) automatically goes to hospital for further assessment. But, in other cases, it's the job of the clinician to say what follow on, if any, takes place.

Sounds like a great idea. I don't think it is very widespread though.

The obvious limitation is the number of available mental health care works and the number of police units available to take away from all other emergency responses and dedicated to a single task.

If police are defunded, this would probably be one of the first non-essential tasks to be eliminated.

And that money would be redirected to other agencies to deal with those things. If it's not the cop's job, why would it be funded by the cops?

Sending out the clinicians without police protection would save money. Although, I don't expect many clinicians would volunteer for that job.

Of course, some calls would require police backup, but many wouldn't. A clinician would be better able to tell when physical action should be taken too. Cops might mean well, but that is no substitute for actually knowing how to deal with a situation.

Ambulance and fire won't go into a potentially confrontational situation without police assistance. I don't mind backing them up.

But, I would be totally OK with sending a guy with a bachelor's degree in holistic health into a house with a potentially violent offender to see if he could help him sort through his issues.

What could go wrong?

 

[Wyatt earp]

I had a heart attach in April and no wait at all in a red state. The ER was empty as they discharged me, they where taking down the testing tents

 

[westwall]

In Washington state which is not one of the worst covid states, major hospital ERs are swamped with patients. I took my brother to an ER and we had to wait 3 hours in an ER waiting room. After another 2 hours, he was put in a spare room with 3 other patients, one was psychotic and was strapped to a gurney. The nurse said it would be at least two hours before he saw a doctor. I asked for some medication to relieve pain which didn't happen and after an hour I took him to a friends house in Seattle and called 911. The EMS took him to Harbor View, one of the largest hospitals and a regional trauma which was a wise decision because there was a line at the door of the ER waiting room just waiting to get in. After a fairly short wait, he saw a doctor who ordered tests, medications, and admitted him to the hospital. However, he's on a gurney outside the ER waiting for a room. The nurse said there are no rooms available and it may be hours before he has a room.

Keep in mind this is not a Covid hot spot. I can't imagine what it must be like in hospitals in places like Miami.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but there has got to be a lot of people that are dying and suffering due to Covid 19 that don't have it simply because they can't get emergency care, medical equipment, and supplies when they need it.

Just imagine. Under Medicare for all, that is the only option ANYBODY will have.

 

[Flopper]

My father got injured trying to install a new garage door opener for my older sister... the spring popped back and busted his hand and he was bleeding profusely, took over 30 plus stitches.....

My sister picked up mom next door, and drove dad to the ER, and they would not let my mom and sister in to the emergency room.... They gave a mask to dad, told my sister and mom to wait in the car, they took my sister's cell phone number and said they would call when he was done being stitched up....

This was in the Ocala region of Florida, low Covid cases, three months ago.

-------

Here in Maine, With very low COVID cases, I still have not been able to go in and see my doctor.... even my annual physical was done over the phone... two phone visits with her... for labs, I went to the health center, waited in the parking lot with hubby, an attendant came out and got my name.... we waited in the car...then the phlebotomist came out, gave me a mask, and she brought me to the room to draw blood, etc, then was escorted out.... didn't even have to pay...They said they'd bill me.

And I still can't get in to see my dentist...my appointment was pushed from March, to May, and now to September... And only for a cleaning.

My state has been super strict with this virus.... but I can't complain.... because we have likely had fewer cases and deaths, because of how strict our state has been...

Some ER's provide separate entrances, waiting areas, and exam rooms for positive covid patients. Often those that mix covid and non-covid patients restrict who is allowed in to reduce infection.

The two most effective methods of stopping coronavirus is:

• Testing, quarantining, tracing contacts, testing contacts, tracing contacts, quarantining.... South Korea did this very effectively, reducing the number of cases by 90% in 3 weeks. They have had 287 deaths over the last 6 months and the country is running near normal with 4.7% unemployment.
• Preventing the transmission through the air with masks and distancing. Japan has had strong nationwide support for wearing masks and social distancing where possible. Less than 1000 have died in the last 6 months and the country is running near normal with an unemployment rate of less than 2%.

Due to a lack of planning, coordination, and national resolve, the US has failed at both, 150,000 deaths and economy seriously damaged with 11.1% unemployment. Thus are we are left with a lot of bad choices, all painful and many less effective.

 

[Flopper]

In Washington state which is not one of the worst covid states, major hospital ERs are swamped with patients. I took my brother to an ER and we had to wait 3 hours in an ER waiting room. After another 2 hours, he was put in a spare room with 3 other patients, one was psychotic and was strapped to a gurney. The nurse said it would be at least two hours before he saw a doctor. I asked for some medication to relieve pain which didn't happen and after an hour I took him to a friends house in Seattle and called 911. The EMS took him to Harbor View, one of the largest hospitals and a regional trauma which was a wise decision because there was a line at the door of the ER waiting room just waiting to get in. After a fairly short wait, he saw a doctor who ordered tests, medications, and admitted him to the hospital. However, he's on a gurney outside the ER waiting for a room. The nurse said there are no rooms available and it may be hours before he has a room.

Keep in mind this is not a Covid hot spot. I can't imagine what it must be like in hospitals in places like Miami.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but there has got to be a lot of people that are dying and suffering due to Covid 19 that don't have it simply because they can't get emergency care, medical equipment, and supplies when they need it.

Just imagine. Under Medicare for all, that is the only option ANYBODY will have.

I'm under Medicare and I wait just as long as anyone else. I guess you believe that if everyone has a form of medicare they will overuse it creating shortages. Medicare for All, might be similar to Medicare but it would be different. Obamacare today is very different than the Obamacare envisioned in 2008.

 

[Flopper]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Actually, many police department have trained health care workers assigned to a police unit (where the police provide security for the mental health clinician). Their task is to attend calls that are assumed to be mental health related and make a judgement as to whether a not the subject of the call should be referred for further treatment. It's a very busy shift as they tend to work a larger area than a regular unit.

Anyone who threatens to harm himself (or someone else) automatically goes to hospital for further assessment. But, in other cases, it's the job of the clinician to say what follow on, if any, takes place.

Sounds like a great idea. I don't think it is very widespread though.

The obvious limitation is the number of available mental health care works and the number of police units available to take away from all other emergency responses and dedicated to a single task.

If police are defunded, this would probably be one of the first non-essential tasks to be eliminated.

And that money would be redirected to other agencies to deal with those things. If it's not the cop's job, why would it be funded by the cops?

Sending out the clinicians without police protection would save money. Although, I don't expect many clinicians would volunteer for that job.

I doubt they would sent such a person into a crime scene. About half the calls the police handle are not crime related and most of those are not violent crimes, domestic disturbances, missing kids, violation of custody agreements, child or spouse abuse, violation of restraining orders, drug overdoes, Violation of property rights, etc.

 

[WelfareQueen]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Actually, many police department have trained health care workers assigned to a police unit (where the police provide security for the mental health clinician). Their task is to attend calls that are assumed to be mental health related and make a judgement as to whether a not the subject of the call should be referred for further treatment. It's a very busy shift as they tend to work a larger area than a regular unit.

Anyone who threatens to harm himself (or someone else) automatically goes to hospital for further assessment. But, in other cases, it's the job of the clinician to say what follow on, if any, takes place.

Sounds like a great idea. I don't think it is very widespread though.

The obvious limitation is the number of available mental health care works and the number of police units available to take away from all other emergency responses and dedicated to a single task.

If police are defunded, this would probably be one of the first non-essential tasks to be eliminated.

And that money would be redirected to other agencies to deal with those things. If it's not the cop's job, why would it be funded by the cops?

Sending out the clinicians without police protection would save money. Although, I don't expect many clinicians would volunteer for that job.

Of course, some calls would require police backup, but many wouldn't. A clinician would be better able to tell when physical action should be taken too. Cops might mean well, but that is no substitute for actually knowing how to deal with a situation.

Cops must always be present with mental health staff for a very simple reason. When I worked emergency services and went out with the cops to evaluate a mental health patient often they meet criteria for hospitalization.

Okay you might say, that's great.

However, if the patient is too psychotic to give informed consent, or acutely suicidal, they have to be hospitalized involuntarily. The patient either cannot or will not give informed consent for hospitalization. So they then must legally be taken into to custody without their consent to be hospitalized. That involves handcuffs, and a legal chain of custody. Only cops are authorized to do that.

In Virginia all qualified mental health evaluators must have a minimum Master's Degree with an additional one year internship. Most also need a 2-3 year residency to complete full licensure. That is my qualification. The State then certifies you as a qualified mental health evaluator in Civil Law to perform your job. Only qualified mental health evaluators in Virginia can involuntarily hospitalize someone. Cops cannot. M.D.'s cannot, private practice clinicians cannot.

Once the evaluation is complete and the patient meets criteria for involuntary hospitalization, I would call a magistrate or judge to issue the civil detention order. The cop takes the patient into custody and has the civil detention order transported to the hospital where the patient is admitted.
That is the process. And yes, cops must be involved.

 

[WelfareQueen]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Actually, many police department have trained health care workers assigned to a police unit (where the police provide security for the mental health clinician). Their task is to attend calls that are assumed to be mental health related and make a judgement as to whether a not the subject of the call should be referred for further treatment. It's a very busy shift as they tend to work a larger area than a regular unit.

Anyone who threatens to harm himself (or someone else) automatically goes to hospital for further assessment. But, in other cases, it's the job of the clinician to say what follow on, if any, takes place.

Sounds like a great idea. I don't think it is very widespread though.

The obvious limitation is the number of available mental health care works and the number of police units available to take away from all other emergency responses and dedicated to a single task.

If police are defunded, this would probably be one of the first non-essential tasks to be eliminated.

And that money would be redirected to other agencies to deal with those things. If it's not the cop's job, why would it be funded by the cops?

Sending out the clinicians without police protection would save money. Although, I don't expect many clinicians would volunteer for that job.

Of course, some calls would require police backup, but many wouldn't. A clinician would be better able to tell when physical action should be taken too. Cops might mean well, but that is no substitute for actually knowing how to deal with a situation.

Ambulance and fire won't go into a potentially confrontational situation without police assistance. I don't mind backing them up.

But, I would be totally OK with sending a guy with a bachelor's degree in holistic health into a house with a potentially violent offender to see if he could help him sort through his issues.

What could go wrong?

I like the holistic medicine. Nice touch.

 

[BULLDOG]

I think the right way to reduce the police is to reduce the need and that starts with providing the mental health and social welfare services that are needed.

Given that a large number of people that police deal with with on a daily basis are regular clients of both the mental health and social welfare systems ... I see a flaw in your theory.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mental health system in my area. To put it kindly, it's a joke and a bad one at that. Cop picks up man walking down the middle of the street, half dressed talking to his imaginary friend. Cop drops off man at an ER where he spends 8 or 10 hours waiting for a psychiatrist who immediately says he need to be evaluated which takes about 3 days or more in a mental faculty. Since there are no openings, he is either dump on the streets or ends up in another ER. If he's really lucky he get in a pysch ward for evaluation. So after 3 to 7 days, he's shown the door with a diagnosis and a list of psychiatrists which he will quickly lose because he's so zonked out on meds he'll be lucky to find his way home. A few days after the meds wear off, he and his imaginary friend continue on his road of discovery bouncing around from ERs, short term stays in mental wards, jails, homelessness shelters, until he get's in big trouble, kills himself, or someone else.

This not the mental health system, I'm referring to.

Quite often that as a different outcome. The cop orders the crazy guy to do something, but the crazy guy refuses. Cop then kicks his ass an throws him in jail because he isn't being cooperative. If the crazy guy is lucky, this is the worst that happens. Many crazy guys are just killed because cops have that magic "feared for my life" excuse.

It is not quite often, but it happens. It is easy to arm chair quarterback and blame cops. Cops have a very difficult job. Try dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional and psychotic. I know how, I am trained and did it for 30 years.

Most cops are good people doing a very difficult job. Without cops, ER's, and EMT's society falls apart inside a week. The people who respond when you are dying or in full blown crisis deserve your respect. At some point they will probably save your life.

Cops aren't trained to deal with that paranoid schizophrenic fully delusional psychotic, and they shouldn't have to be. That's why we need to be able to send people that are trained to deal with them. Our jails are full of mental patients who shouldn't be there. That costs us a fortune, does nothing to solve the crazy problem, and forces cops to make life changing, or ending decisions that they are not qualified to make. Removing the responsibility of dealing with those crazies from cops shoulders would save money, and free them up to do the job they are trained for.

Jails are full of people that shouldn't be there because there's no other place to put them. And for that reason, many of them end up back on the streets. That is really frustrating for the police. They do their job but the system fails and too often the cops have to deal with the resulting tragedies.

Of course it is frustrating for them, especially since that is part of the job that they have no training or education for. Imagine how much money and stress could be saved by the cops if trained mental health practitioners could deal with those people. Th added bonus would be fewer incidents of excessive use of force. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Actually, many police department have trained health care workers assigned to a police unit (where the police provide security for the mental health clinician). Their task is to attend calls that are assumed to be mental health related and make a judgement as to whether a not the subject of the call should be referred for further treatment. It's a very busy shift as they tend to work a larger area than a regular unit.

Anyone who threatens to harm himself (or someone else) automatically goes to hospital for further assessment. But, in other cases, it's the job of the clinician to say what follow on, if any, takes place.

Sounds like a great idea. I don't think it is very widespread though.

The obvious limitation is the number of available mental health care works and the number of police units available to take away from all other emergency responses and dedicated to a single task.

If police are defunded, this would probably be one of the first non-essential tasks to be eliminated.

And that money would be redirected to other agencies to deal with those things. If it's not the cop's job, why would it be funded by the cops?

Sending out the clinicians without police protection would save money. Although, I don't expect many clinicians would volunteer for that job.

Of course, some calls would require police backup, but many wouldn't. A clinician would be better able to tell when physical action should be taken too. Cops might mean well, but that is no substitute for actually knowing how to deal with a situation.

Cops must always be present with mental health staff for a very simple reason. When I worked emergency services and went out with the cops to evaluate a mental health patient often they meet criteria for hospitalization.

Okay you might say, that's great.

However, if the patient is too psychotic to give informed consent, or acutely suicidal, they have to be hospitalized involuntarily. The patient either cannot or will not give informed consent for hospitalization. So they then must legally be taken into to custody without their consent to be hospitalized. That involves handcuffs, and a legal chain of custody. Only cops are authorized to do that.

In Virginia all qualified mental health evaluators must have a minimum Master's Degree with an additional one year internship. Most also need a 2-3 year residency to complete full licensure. That is my qualification. The State then certifies you as a qualified mental health evaluator in Civil Law to perform your job. Only qualified mental health evaluators in Virginia can involuntarily hospitalize someone. Cops cannot. M.D.'s cannot, private practice clinicians cannot.

Once the evaluation is complete and the patient meets criteria for involuntary hospitalization, I would call a magistrate or judge to issue the civil detention order. The cop takes the patient into custody and has the civil detention order transported to the hospital where the patient is admitted.
That is the process. And yes, cops must be involved.

Not having any experience in the matter, I can't say I see anything wrong with that procedure. I do know that isn't how most interactions police have with mental patients are handled. What we are doing doesn't work.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Reason I say that is your experience is anecdotal.
About a month ago I took my mother to the E.R. for severe dizziness/vomiting etc. She is 80 years old.
She received care immediately, and did not have any issues like you say. So you have your morons like "White 6" who immediately creates a narrative based on what one person said on an online forum. That is how easy it is to trigger the left.
Nevermind the fact we have the worlds lowest death rate by Covid.

"Nevermind the fact we have the worlds lowest death rate by Covid."

ok, i won't mind this non-fact.

 

[fncceo]

I do know that isn't how most interactions police have with mental patients are handled.

And you know that HOW, exactly?

Show your data, please.

 

[BULLDOG]

I do know that isn't how most interactions police have with mental patients are handled.

And you know that HOW, exactly?

Show your data, please.

You are just being argumentative instead of discussing, now. We both know there isn't a trained healthcare worker called every time a cop deals with a crazy. That only happens when it isn't practical to just kick his ass and arrest him or shoot him.

t