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German election on Sep 26th

Bernhard

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Germany elects a new parliament on September 26th.

For the first time in German post-war history, none of the top candidates for Chancellor is the incumbent. And for the first time, there are three parties running with a candidate for Chancellor.

The center-right CDU/CSU (the same party incumbent Chancellor Merkel belongs to) is running with Prime Minister of Northrhine-Westphalia, Armin Laschet.

The center-left SPD nominated Vice Chancellor and Finance Minister Olaf Scholz. And the Green Party is running with the only female and youngest of the three candidates, Annalena Baerbock.

laschet-baerbock-scholz-100-resimage_v-variantBig16x9_w-1280.jpg

Source: mdr Rundfunk
The three candidates for Chancellor: Armin Laschet (CDU), Annalena Baerbock (Greens) and Olaf Scholz (SPD)

The polls showed a rollercoaster of ups and downs for the parties during the past months, first the center-right was leading, then the Greens, then the center-right again. At the moment, the center-left SPD is ahead in the polls and their candidate Olaf Scholz scores the best voter support numbers, while Armin Laschet's center-right campaign apparently kind of collapsed and the CDU/CSU might score a crushing defeat. But the numbers are still close enough, so the election might offer some surprises.

However, none of the parties is remotely close to winning a majority on their own, so much will depend on coalition negotiations after the election. Most likely, three parties will be required to form a coalition this time (in the past, two party coalitions were the norm).

Potential coalitions might be a "Jamaica coalition" (due to the colors of the Jamaican flag, black for center-right CDU/CSU, green for the Green Party and yellow for the moderately libertarian FDP), a "stoplight coalition" (red for center-left SPD, Greens and yellow FDP), or even a leftist "red-green-red" coalition including SPD, Greens and the far-left Linke. Less likely is a red-black-yellow "Germany coalition" of CDU/CSU, SPD and FDP. All other parties clearly reject any cooperation of any kind with the far-right AfD.

Since Germany has a parliamentary system, it's not necessarily the strongest party that gets the government: If weaker parties manage to form a coalition encompassing more than 50% of the seats, they can elect the Chancellor even against the strongest party.
 

zaangalewa

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Interesting in this context is the Union had a year ago 37%, the Social Democrats had 16% and the Green party had 19%. (Source: Sonntagsfrage August 21st 2020). Now: Union 20%, Social Democrats 25% and The Greens 16%. In the last 1 ½ years the Union lost about 50% consent and in the last 3 month the Social Democrats wan about 80%.
 
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Bernhard

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Interesting in this context is the Union had a year ago 37%, the Social Democrats had 16% and the Green party had 19%. (Source: Sonntagsfrage August 21st 2020). Now: Union 20%, Social Democrats 25% and The Greens 16%. In the last 1 ½ years the Union lost about 50% consent and in the last 3 month the Social Democrats wan about 80%.

Kind of shows that there isn't much left of the CDU, once Merkel leaves.

Perhaps a reason for "Schadenfreude" on the side of the SPD, as a very similar thing happened to them since 2009, once former Chancellor Schröder was gone.
 

zaangalewa

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Kind of shows that there isn't much left of the CDU, once Merkel leaves.

No no no no no. The last local elections in this days in Niedersachsen (Lower saxony) showed very clear an majorite for the CDU. The fundamental base is not the problem of the CDU. As sad as it is to say: From the three candidates Armin Laschet (CDU), Olaf Scholz (SPD) and Annalena Baerbock (Grüne) only Markus Söder (CSU) would be the very best candidate. But the leaders of the CDU did not seriosly discuss his offer to candidate. Markus Söder is a top speaker - the base of the CDU and CSU always saw in him the most talented candidate - but the leaders of the CDU decided to prefer their own downfall.

Perhaps a reason for "Schadenfreude" on the side of the SPD,

I don't think so. Asides from all candidates the political party SPD earn my personal respect, because they always were ready to overtake responsibility, although they had been often frustrated because after a so called "great coalition" the electors did often punish them. Now Olaf Scholz - a classical serios politician - made up to now an unbelievable run.

as a very similar thing happened to them since 2009, once former Chancellor Schröder was gone.

I don't know what to say about Schröder and Fischer - I never would had been on my own like one of them. The only good thing had been that they kept Germany out of the war in Iraq - what had been the only reason why Schröder wan against Stoiber in those days. I was in this days a little proud on all Germans that they had voted for a more worse economy - because to vote for a better economy had meant to vote for a totally senseless war.

This year is by the way a year full of catastrophes. Brexit, covid-19, Nawalny was nearly murdered, Lukashenko hijacked an European aeroplane, flood disaster, Afghanistan, ... and the management of all this catastropes was "not worst" (German) = "greater than great can be great" (USA-English). Not really any need for a new government in Germany. I'm quite sure if Angela Merkerl would say today "I made a change. I do not resign." then the CDU for sure would win again.

So - where's the real problem of the CDU? It are their leading "artificers" - nice pyrotechnics - nice concepts - nice ideas - but no rocket to bring it to the people, so the people understand what's really going on in the politics of the federal republic of Germany. My very big problem: "Die Linke". The CDU/CSU blocks the AfD - the Nazi-followers - what costs them a lot of power. But the SPD seems to welcome "Die Linke", although they know very well on their own that this followers of the Soviet-Commies are their own destruction - and perhaps also the destruction of Germany.
 
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Bernhard

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No no no no no. The last local elections in this days in Niedersachsen (Lower saxony) showed very clear an majorite for the CDU. The fundamental base is not the problem of the CDU. As sad as it is to say: From the three candidates Armin Laschet (CDU), Olaf Scholz (SPD) and Annalena Baerbock (Grüne) only Markus Söder (CSU) would be the very best candidate. But the leaders of the CDU did not seriosly discuss his offer to candidate. Markus Söder is a top speaker - the base of the CDU and CSU always saw in him the most talented candidate - but the leaders of the CDU decided to prefer their own downfall.

But the CDU under Merkel abandoned many positions that had made them unique in the past: Nuclear power phase out, an end to military draft, support for gay marriage, and most important -- a stance very critical of immigration.

Now I applaud the CDU for doing that, because my positions are left of center -- but for conservative former CDU voters? It must have been blasphemy. Much like SPD Schröder's Hartz 4 policies were blasphemy for real traditional social democrats in favor of a strong welfare state and worker rights.

As long as Merkel was still in power, she could cover this lack of CDU positions with her personal popularity, many people voted for the CDU because of Merkel, who would have never voted for the CDU without her. Much like many voted for the SPD in 2005 because of Schröder, who would never vote for the SPD without him -- and now Merkel leaves, and these voters leave the CDU, too.

I don't think so. Asides from all candidates the political party SPD earn my personal respect, because they always were ready to overtake responsibility, although they had been often frustrated because after a so called "great coalition" the electors did often punish them. Now Olaf Scholz - a classical serios politician - made up to now an unbelievable run.

Yes, I agree, much of the SPD's current run certainly has to do with Olaf Scholz. Though it's a surprise such a "boring" candidate can shine like Scholz does. Much of it probably has to do with the fact that his competition isn't strong at all -- Scholz is "the one-eyed among the blind" for many voters, so to speak.

I don't know what to say about Schröder and Fischer - I never would had been on my own like one of them. The only good thing had been that they kept Germany out of the war in Iraq - what had been the only reason why Schröder wan against Stoiber in those days. I was in this days a little proud on all Germans that they had voted for a more worse economy - because to vote for a better economy had meant to vote for a totally senseless war.

Well, Schröder's economic reforms maybe went too far and created many social problems, but the truth of the matter is that they are responsible for the economic boom that followed, and the unemployment rate falling from 5 million down to 2 million. Even though Schröder wasn't in office anymore and Merkel took most of the fame for the boom. Without Schröder, there wouldn't have been Schäuble's popular "black zero" and Germany would have hardly had the financial leeway to battle the financial crisis.

This year is by the way a year full of catastrophes. Brexit, covid-19, Nawalny was nearly murdered, Lukashenko hijacked an European aeroplane, flood disaster, Afghanistan, ... and the management of all this catastropes was "not worst" (German) = "greater than great can be great" (USA-English). Not really any need for a new government in Germany. I'm quite sure if Angela Merkerl would say today "I made a change. I do not resign." then the CDU for sure would win again.

Your view is typically German, I guess. ;) Whenever things are tough, you opt for the "known evil", no matter how bad it is. "At least we know what we got".

I think Merkel is the most overestimated Chancellor Germany ever had. She had and has no vision whatsoever, and there was not a single crisis she saw coming or was prepared for. She ever only reacted on every crisis she should have seen coming. She is like a student who spends the night before exam partying, and then still writes a C the next morning, because she's very smart.

And she did less than nothing on ecological transformation of our society and digitalization. This may very well become a huge problem for Germany in the next few years.

In fact, I think about the only good thing you can say about Merkel is that she wasn't Trump.
 
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frigidweirdo

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Germany elects a new parliament on September 26th.

For the first time in German post-war history, none of the top candidates for Chancellor is the incumbent. And for the first time, there are three parties running with a candidate for Chancellor.

The center-right CDU/CSU (the same party incumbent Chancellor Merkel belongs to) is running with Prime Minister of Northrhine-Westphalia, Armin Laschet.

The center-left SPD nominated Vice Chancellor and Finance Minister Olaf Scholz. And the Green Party is running with the only female and youngest of the three candidates, Annalena Baerbock.

laschet-baerbock-scholz-100-resimage_v-variantBig16x9_w-1280.jpg

Source: mdr Rundfunk
The three candidates for Chancellor: Armin Laschet (CDU), Annalena Baerbock (Greens) and Olaf Scholz (SPD)

The polls showed a rollercoaster of ups and downs for the parties during the past months, first the center-right was leading, then the Greens, then the center-right again. At the moment, the center-left SPD is ahead in the polls and their candidate Olaf Scholz scores the best voter support numbers, while Armin Laschet's center-right campaign apparently kind of collapsed and the CDU/CSU might score a crushing defeat. But the numbers are still close enough, so the election might offer some surprises.

However, none of the parties is remotely close to winning a majority on their own, so much will depend on coalition negotiations after the election. Most likely, three parties will be required to form a coalition this time (in the past, two party coalitions were the norm).

Potential coalitions might be a "Jamaica coalition" (due to the colors of the Jamaican flag, black for center-right CDU/CSU, green for the Green Party and yellow for the moderately libertarian FDP), a "stoplight coalition" (red for center-left SPD, Greens and yellow FDP), or even a leftist "red-green-red" coalition including SPD, Greens and the far-left Linke. Less likely is a red-black-yellow "Germany coalition" of CDU/CSU, SPD and FDP. All other parties clearly reject any cooperation of any kind with the far-right AfD.

Since Germany has a parliamentary system, it's not necessarily the strongest party that gets the government: If weaker parties manage to form a coalition encompassing more than 50% of the seats, they can elect the Chancellor even against the strongest party.

All parties are running with a "candidate for Chancellor". This is a system where the party which can form a majority government will have the Chancellor.

So, any party running could, technically, have the Chancellor if they get more than 50% of the votes with Proportional Representation.

The PR system means that a political party needs to get 5% of the votes in order to get seats (though they can win FPTP seats, but are less likely to win a seat with FPTP than with PR)

There are six political parties which stand a good chance of getting into the Bundestag.

What will be interesting will be the difference between the PR and FPTP vote. Last time out it was 8% (larger parties doing well with FPTP and losing votes with PR) and 10% the time before that.

It shows America just how bad the FPTP system is, as it gives larger parties an unfair advantage.
 

zaangalewa

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But the CDU under Merkel abandoned many positions that had made them unique in the past: Nuclear power phase out, an end to military draft, support for gay marriage, and most important -- a stance very critical of immigration.

Now I applaud the CDU for doing that,

Why? In the end this means marriages are not existing any longer and are replaced by marriage contracts which have the same quality like company contracts. In the time when this did happen in Germany in Japan for example married a man his cuddly toy. Why not? Why not to found a company an marry all their slaves ... ah sorry: employees? And so on and so on. Whatever. I am a Catholic. I suggest to all Catholics not to accept all forms of state marriages any longer. Anyway the states stole the marriages from Christians only on reason to enslave their children and to make them as soldiers to a property of states.

because my positions are left of center -- but for conservative former CDU voters?#

You are really young. You still don't understand what you say here - and when the moment will come when you will understand then it will be too late. You say here the people should vote for Nazis of the AfD instead to vote for the CDU. Let me guess: You grew up in the area where the GDR once had been. It makes "sense" for autocrats in general to strengthen the own hypothetic "enemies". Then it makes sense to be "the anti-fascist bullwark". Indeed the Soviet-squads in East-Germany had been full of former Nazis, who had not been only followers of the Nazis but had been extremely criminal on their own.

One of my uncles had been during his whole life a commie - in the West of Germany - but he changed this a very short time after the reunion in an age betwenen 80-90 when he had to recognize what an unbelievable amount of crimes they had done there.

It must have been blasphemy.

Learn something about the Christian religion before you say such stupid things. A Christian politician in Germany is always for all people a politician. Sure it exist decisions of conscience which are not negotiable - but how individuals like to waste their lifes with nonsense forms of marriages is their problem ... ah sorry: freedom. The only real problems in this context is child trafficking. No one likes to hear this but indeed homosexuals in Germany aer in average more rich then others. And the wrong idea not to marry like heterosexuals and to have children - what's in a natural way of life impossible - is able to cause a lot of problems which have carefully to be watched. In general I think all forms of "contingents" of children for adoptions are always only wrong. Adoptions have only to take care about what's the best for the adopted children. And what is also an extremely dangerous problem is surrogacy.


Much like SPD Schröder's Hartz 4 policies were blasphemy for real traditional social democrats in favor of a strong welfare state and worker rights.

Hartz 4 is a stupid word. A reform in this way was necessarry - specially because more poor and more rich areas in Germany exist so this form of help had to be made independent from a local poorness.

As long as Merkel was still in power, she could cover this lack of CDU positions

Sorry. But do you really think Angela Merkel was a kind of king of Germany? This was for sure not her own view to the many, many, many problems she had solved with the help of many, many, many people. And as usual in politics solutions need always a lot of compromisses.

with her personal popularity, many people voted for the CDU because of Merkel, who would have never voted for the CDU without her.

In history exist no experiments - so this is an idea which is able to be wrong and true the same time - or with other wrods: an worthless idea.

Much like many voted for the SPD in 2005 because of Schröder, who would never vote for the SPD without him

Eh?

-- and now Merkel leaves, and these voters leave the CDU, too.

It is her right to go. She is 67 years. You can see in this fact that she never had been "king of Germany" or a lonely woman far from all others. The political party CDU was and is her home and no one forbids her to say whatever she likes to say to everyone. But what she will say will specialy in the CDU always be noticed.

Yes, I agree, much of the SPD's current run certainly has to do with Olaf Scholz.

Indirectly. While others made nonsense he jist simple did do his job and organized his own campaign.

Though it's a surprise such a "boring" candidate can shine like Scholz does. Much of it probably has to do with the fact that his competition isn't strong at all -- Scholz is "the one-eyed among the blind" for many voters, so to speak.

Or with other words: More people are able to identify themselves with the "dry" way how he manages his job.

Well, Schröder's economic reforms maybe went too far and created many social problems,

or solved many social problem before they became serios social problem. The problem in general: money is a short ressource.

but the truth of the matter is that they are responsible for the economic boom that followed, and the unemployment rate falling from 5 million down to 2 million. Even though Schröder wasn't in office anymore and Merkel took most of the fame for the boom. Without Schröder, there wouldn't have been Schäuble's popular "black zero" and Germany would have hardly had the financial leeway to battle the financial crisis.

The "black zero" means just simple not to waste money when no one has to waste money. All politicians all over the world prefer to waste money - also in Germany. Exception: CDU/CSU.

Your view is typically German, I guess.

I am a typical German.

;) Whenever things are tough, you opt for the "known evil", no matter how bad it is. "At least we know what we got".

Eh? Sorry. What for heavens sake do you say here?

I think Merkel is the most overestimated Chancellor Germany ever had.

She, Schmidt or Adenauer - who's greater I don't know.

She had and has no vision whatsoever,

Chancellor Helmut Schmidt: "A politician with visions should go to a doctor."

and there was not a single crisis she saw coming or was prepared for.

A crisis which you see coming so you are prepared for is no crisis.

She ever only reacted on every crisis she should have seen coming.

You are lost in abstracta. What for heavens sake do you speak about here?

She is like a student who spends the night before exam partying, and then still writes a C the next morning, because she's very smart.

Her talents were always in her life accompanied from a lot of hard work. She is doing her job. Her job still is to be "chancellor of the federal republic of Germany". She will do it up to the last miniute - and then it will be over and she will do something else.

And she did less than nothing on ecological transformation of our society and digitalization.

Always this empty phrases. What means "digitalization"? Internet of things via 5G? Spysoftware in every living room and automatic toilet? Informatic lessons in schools? ... What means ecological transformation? To use electric cars which specially in Germany produce more CO2 than any Diesel - but the federal republic pays 10,000 Euro for every of this scrap boxes?

Your empty phrases are only boxes which have to be filled with the right context which makes sense for all and every life.


This may very well become a huge problem for Germany in the next few years.

"Germany" always had "huge problems" since we founded it about 32,000 years ago on a campfire surrounded from lions.

In fact, I think about the only good thing you can say about Merkel is that she wasn't Trump.

No one is "a Trump". If someone had told me that someone like Donald Trump exists I had not believed it. What an absurde idiot. And he got more than only one vote. That's still astonishing for me.

 
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Bernhard

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You are really young. You still don't understand what you say here - and when the moment will come when you will understand then it will be too late.


Learn something about the Christian religion before you say such stupid things.


When you say things like that, I know that you are not interested in meaningful talk, but just an arrogant piece of shit as I should have expected on this board.

I will not waste my time dignifying your drivil with honest arguments, as this would be "pearls in front of the swines", as you'll understand if you really are a Christian.
 
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Bernhard

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All parties are running with a "candidate for Chancellor". This is a system where the party which can form a majority government will have the Chancellor.

So, any party running could, technically, have the Chancellor if they get more than 50% of the votes with Proportional Representation.

The PR system means that a political party needs to get 5% of the votes in order to get seats (though they can win FPTP seats, but are less likely to win a seat with FPTP than with PR)

There are six political parties which stand a good chance of getting into the Bundestag.

What will be interesting will be the difference between the PR and FPTP vote. Last time out it was 8% (larger parties doing well with FPTP and losing votes with PR) and 10% the time before that.

It shows America just how bad the FPTP system is, as it gives larger parties an unfair advantage.

Though since 2016 or so, the federal court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) ruled that FPTP distortions of the PR result are unconstitutional. So when it happens a party scores more seats via FPTP than it should have via PR, the other parties get additional seats too, to make up for it.

So... if we don't want to make things more complicated than they are: It's proportional representation that decides who governs Germany.
 

frigidweirdo

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Though since 2016 or so, the federal court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) ruled that FPTP distortions of the PR result are unconstitutional. So when it happens a party scores more seats via FPTP than it should have via PR, the other parties get additional seats too, to make up for it.

So... if we don't want to make things more complicated than they are: It's proportional representation that decides who governs Germany.

I'm struggling to see this "distortion".

In 2013 the CDU/CSU got 41.5% of the PR vote and 49.4% of the seats =+ 8.1% (high because the FDP did so badly and the AfD split the vote). The SPD got 25.7% of the votes and 30.5% of the votes =+4.8%, because of the cut off at 5% everyone gets a higher percentage of seats than their vote percentage.

If we just take the votes for the top 5 in Germany in 2013 we see 84.2% of the vote.

If we say 84.2% = 100% then the CDU/CSU got 49.28% of the vote
The SPD got 30.5%
Die Linke got 10.21%
Gruene got 9.97%

Which is pretty similar to the make up of seats in the Bundestag.

I don't see FPTP having any impact on the percentage of seats. The NUMBER of seats yes, because in 2017, they ended up having a massively higher number of seats to make PR work based on the FPTP seats that had been given.

And yes, I know it's PR that governs in Germany, and has been for a long, long time. But, every party can get a Chancellor. No party has a "candidate" for Chancellor. This sounds like the US presidential election.
 
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Bernhard

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I'm struggling to see this "distortion".

In 2013 the CDU/CSU got 41.5% of the PR vote and 49.4% of the seats =+ 8.1% (high because the FDP did so badly and the AfD split the vote). The SPD got 25.7% of the votes and 30.5% of the votes =+4.8%, because of the cut off at 5% everyone gets a higher percentage of seats than their vote percentage.

If we just take the votes for the top 5 in Germany in 2013 we see 84.2% of the vote.

If we say 84.2% = 100% then the CDU/CSU got 49.28% of the vote
The SPD got 30.5%
Die Linke got 10.21%
Gruene got 9.97%

Which is pretty similar to the make up of seats in the Bundestag.

I don't see FPTP having any impact on the percentage of seats. The NUMBER of seats yes, because in 2017, they ended up having a massively higher number of seats to make PR work based on the FPTP seats that had been given.

And yes, I know it's PR that governs in Germany, and has been for a long, long time. But, every party can get a Chancellor. No party has a "candidate" for Chancellor. This sounds like the US presidential election.

Thanks for your posting, it's nice to read from someone who knows what he's talking about!

Guess I wasn't clear. What I meant was the distortion that would result from one or both of the then large parties winning "Überhangmandate", before the Bundesverfassungsgericht ruled the other parties in the parliament must receive additional seats, too, to make up for it and restore the PR result.

Back then, SPD and CDU/CSU would sometimes get more seats than they would have according to their mere PR result, resulting in a disadvantage for the smaller parties in the parliament (CDU/CSU and SPD had more, the smaller parties less seats than their PR result suggested). This could have even changed governing majorities in theory, but as far as I know, never did in reality.

As for your claim "no party has a candidate for Chancellor" is not quite correct, though. You're right that there is no such thing as a candidate for Chancellor in a public election for the Bundestag according to law, but that doesn't change the fact that the major parties which are expected to have a realistic shot at the office name such candidates for Chancellor. So yes and no, they are not candidates like the US Presidential candidates, as the voters don't vote for them directly, nor is it binding for parties forming a coalition to chose the same person as Chancellor they were running with in the campaign. But these candidates are pretty much a reality in the federal election campaigns, up to "tv duels/triels" much like in the US.

The major parties name such candidates, in order to provide the voters with orientation, as a kind of "campaign promise", as the personality of the person who is supposed to become Chancellor plays a big role for many voters. (And sometimes it's a publicity stunt of a small party to grab attention, like when the FDP named a candidate for Chancellor in 2002, ending up winning 7.4% of the votes only.) And so far, it has never happened in the history of the Federal Republic that someone became Chancellor as a result of an election who hadn't been top candidate in the campaign (mid-term changes of the Chancellor in 1963, 1966, 1974 and 1982 notwithstanding).

And while it's true that in theory, any party, even the small ones, or even a non-partisan can get the office of Chancellor (as long as they manage to form a majority supporting them), in practize, that never happened. There are certain "unwritten rules" that have never been broken in the history of the Federal Republic (or only in very rare cases on state level), such as: When two or more parties form a governing coalition, the strongest among these parties gets the top office (Chancellor, or Ministerpräsident on state level). This doesn't have to be the strongest party in the parliament, when it's the strongest party within the governing coalition, that's good enough. Another unwritten rule is that the parties aim at forming formal coalitions, minority governments are a rare exception (never happened on federal level, just here and there on state level).

I'm not very familiar with the Canadian system i.e., but as far as I remember, it's common there that the strongest party in the parliament is expected to govern alone, even when it's well below 50% of the seats in parliament, and organize majorities in parliament for every decision anew -- in theory, the German system allows that, too. But our "unwritten rules" or political tradition stand in the way of such an approach.

But who knows? Traditions aren't laws. So this may well change in the future.

In 2005, when Angela Merkel was CDU/CSU candidate for Chancellor for the first time, but was still kind of controversial within her party, there was some talk after the election to replace her and make another CDU/CSU politician Chancellor, because Merkel was blamed for a disappointing result for her party -- would have been legit, but didn't happen.

Maybe we'll see this happening for the first time after the upcoming election: In case the CDU/CSU scores very bad and their candidate Laschet is blamed for that, yet the situation arises that the CDU/CSU will be in a position to form a governing coalition after all, maybe the CDU/CSU and/or their coalition partners will name someone else?

Or when three factions will be required to form a coalition, two of them will make concessions regarding the office of Chancellor to get the third party on board? (It was often reported that the FDP could hardly sell a Green/SPD/FDP coalition to their voters, if Green Baerbock became Chancellor -- so maybe the Greens might agree to give the office to the SPD, in order to get the FDP on board for a coalition?)

It's all just speculation, of course, and probably not very likely ... but very well possible in theory.
 

zaangalewa

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When you say things like that, I know that you are not interested in meaningful talk, but just an arrogant piece of shit as I should have expected on this board.

I will not waste my time dignifying your drivil with honest arguments, as this would be "pearls in front of the swines", as you'll understand if you really are a Christian.

Sure I understood. You called yourself a wise man and me a pig with the help of the bible, anti-Christian.
 
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