Garden of Eden

[Ringtone]

The Garden of Eden story is an attempt to explain the problem of evil in the world. Why God seemingly does not care if we suffer. Thing is, it's all a set up. God made the Tree and God made the serpent and God set Adam and Eve up for failure.

I always thought the story of the Garden of Eden was the emergence of an agrarian culture from the hunter-gatherers.. and the big sin was not trusting in God's providence. Remember Cain offered grains and vegetables, Abel offered meats.

In any case, I like the idea that it was in Dilmun. (Bahrain)

First, the Genesis creation story does not present a transition from hunter-gatherer to agrarian. Abel did not sacrifice an animal that he hunted; he sacrificed one that he raised.

Second, this hypothesis has no connection to the rest of the Old Testament, or even the rest of Genesis. Just like a literal forbidden fruit has no connection to the rest of the story. The Bible does not go on about the evils of hunting and gathering, and it does not go on about a literal forbidden fruit.

So many people take the first four chapters of Genesis completely out of context. No wonder they're confused.

The context of the Old Testament is idolatry. That theme runs throughout the narrative. Man fell not from biological death but from spiritual death. He became a living creature not when God formed him from dust but when He breathed life into him.

Then he forsook God; he died. After his death - after his condemnation - all the licentiousness of the unrepentant heart unfolded in the human drama as illustrated in the pages of the Old Testament.

That's the context. The Garden of Eden is not a stand-alone story separate and distinct from the rest of the Bible.

I always thought Abel hunted as well as tended livestock and helped his mother with the cooking.

3:17 ... cursed is the ground for thy sake;
in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; ...
3:18 ... and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, ...
3:23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,
to till the ground ...
4:2 And Abel was a keeper of sheep,
but Cain was a tiller of the ground."

I'm not sure where you get that from those verses.

At any rate, idols came between God and man. That's the Old Testament narrative, and even what the creation story itself says (the first creation story, I should say (the Bible tells of subsequent new creations)).

Eve is life; that's what her name means, and Genesis says she is the mother of all living (3:20). After she ate of the tree of knowledge, she became aware of her sin (3:15). She knew she had sinned. She acquired knowledge of evil (3:22). She died.

I know.. Just about every culture has a tree of life and a tree of knowledge.

Whoever wrote the story of Adam and Eve was influenced by some key details from the preexisting Middle Eastern story of Inanna and Dumuzi.

Adam and Eve, which is not a literal depiction of historical events, but a myth. One that was steeped in the soup of mythological traditions of the ancient Levant.

Interesting how the two stories from Israel and Judah were cobbled together in Genesis.

Interesting how you claim to have absolute knowledge about something you cannot possibly prove to know.

Who are you talking to ? The verses I quoted are from Genesis.

You made the following claims:

"Whoever wrote the story of Adam and Eve was influenced by some key details from the preexisting Middle Eastern story of Inanna and Dumuzi.

Adam and Eve, which is not a literal depiction of historical events, but a myth. One that was steeped in the soup of mythological traditions of the ancient Levant.

Interesting how the two stories from Israel and Judah were cobbled together in Genesis."

Yes, there are thousands of clay tablets in Dilmun and thousands more in Ugarit (modern Latakia) that predate Genesis by a thousand years.

I'm well aware of that. What does that prove relative to your claims?

Those verses were from Genesis.. I never thought of it as a story about Idolatry. I'll give that some thought.

Okay.

 

[LittleNipper]

...you can interpret all those stories any way you want---they are all just opinions/etc

Actually, if you read the rest of the Old Testament, you'd see that the people did not change from their fall from grace with respect to their forsaking God and pursuing idols. The entire Old Testament can be summed up in those terms. The entire thing is about the blessings for their obedience and the curses for their disobedience - blessings for worshipping God and curses for worshipping idols.

In the Garden of Eden, they ate the fruit of another, so to speak, and the drama began.

......you can interpret the bible the same way you interpret the Constitution --many ways
.....you mention god--right there it makes your post wrong...there is no god, you can't prove it/etc.....we've been over this many times

In their proper historical and cultural contexts, really only one interpretation suffices. The context of Genesis is not an absence of the Supreme Being.

If you're reading Genesis assuming that it must ignore or deny the existence of God, then obviously you're reading it wrong.

there is no god--we've been over this a million times and still going over it

You, yourself prove the existence of GOD. You are contrary to a godly individual. You know it all, anyone who tries to point anything out to you is lame, stupid, ignorant. Nasty and condescending seems prevalent among those that despise believers. I am concerned about you ---- you are indifferent to me. It isn't that believers are better, it's that they realize their faults and now want to be more like the Christ they worship ----- and frankly, GOD through the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT does change those that seek salvation through CHRIST. You may wrongly see this as prudish piety, but it is a notable change of temperament. And non-believers appear to resent anyone that doesn't fit their worldly mould. I don't resent you, because I was once like you. And people noted a change in me. This change brought some closer to me and for others it caused them to retreat. Perhaps it is the fact that somethings no longer seem important any longer. Perhaps it is that I now rather try to help people instead of ridicule those that I might once have labeled peculiar, unimportant, annoying, or simply unsophisticated clods. So you see, evolution and upbringing doesn't really answer the question as to why one family member acts one way and another acts another. OR why one who always acted one way suddenly changed his spots and now is sympathetic and thoughtful. But that individual knows. All you need to do is watch, ask, and listen... You may yet find the GOD you now deny.

 

[harmonica]

...you can interpret all those stories any way you want---they are all just opinions/etc

Actually, if you read the rest of the Old Testament, you'd see that the people did not change from their fall from grace with respect to their forsaking God and pursuing idols. The entire Old Testament can be summed up in those terms. The entire thing is about the blessings for their obedience and the curses for their disobedience - blessings for worshipping God and curses for worshipping idols.

In the Garden of Eden, they ate the fruit of another, so to speak, and the drama began.

......you can interpret the bible the same way you interpret the Constitution --many ways
.....you mention god--right there it makes your post wrong...there is no god, you can't prove it/etc.....we've been over this many times

In their proper historical and cultural contexts, really only one interpretation suffices. The context of Genesis is not an absence of the Supreme Being.

If you're reading Genesis assuming that it must ignore or deny the existence of God, then obviously you're reading it wrong.

there is no god--we've been over this a million times and still going over it

You, yourself prove the existence of GOD. You are contrary to a godly individual. You know it all, anyone who tries to point anything out to you is lame, stupid, ignorant. Nasty and condescending seems prevalent among those that despise believers. I am concerned about you ---- you are indifferent to me. It isn't that believers are better, it's that they realize their faults and now want to be more like the Christ they worship ----- and frankly, GOD through the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT does change those that seek salvation through CHRIST. You may wrongly see this as prudish piety, but it is a notable change of temperament. And non-believers appear to resent anyone that doesn't fit their worldly mould. I don't resent you, because I was once like you. And people noted a change in me. This change brought some closer to me and for others it caused them to retreat. Perhaps it is the fact that somethings no longer seem important any longer. Perhaps it is that I now rather try to help people instead of ridicule those that I might once have labeled peculiar, unimportant, annoying, or simply unsophisticated clods. So you see, evolution and upbringing doesn't really answer the question as to why one family member acts one way and another acts another. OR why one who always acted one way suddenly changed his spots and now is sympathetic and thoughtful. But that individual knows. All you need to do is watch, ask, and listen... You may yet find the GOD you now deny.

very silly/ridiculous
you are denying science/math/etc = silly/ridiculous
and -still--you people provide no proof

 

[.oldschool]

 

[surada]

Video unavailable.

 

[onefour1]

Mankind existed prior to coming to the earth as spiritual children of God. God gave them the opportunity to progress and become more like him by receiving a body of flesh and bones and experiencing the knowledge through thought and experience of a fallen world. Mankind chose to come to this earth to progress and become more like God. For this reason two innocent beings were placed in the garden not knowing what death was or sin or disobedience. Allowing the devil to tempt Eve caused here to enter this fallen world and be able to fulfill the commandment of multiplying and replenishing the earth. Eve helped Adam to decide to also partake of the fruit so that he could stay with her and continue to fulfill God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. Once they partook of the fruit, God the Father had this to say:

Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Here we see that mankind became more like the Gods knowing good from evil. They had actually become more like God. Having the knowledge did not destroy their innocence but disobeying God's command. God is an all knowing being who retains his innocence. The fall of man was essential for our eternal progression. In the end we will all resurrect with an immortal body and live in eternity. Jesus himself has a body that he will retain for all eternity.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Having a body gives us more joy. This life is all part of God's plan that we all chose to participate in before the foundation of this earth.

 

[.oldschool]

Video unavailable.

Video unavailable.

Click on the " watch on YouTube" option?

 

[LittleNipper]

Mankind existed prior to coming to the earth as spiritual children of God. God gave them the opportunity to progress and become more like him by receiving a body of flesh and bones and experiencing the knowledge through thought and experience of a fallen world. Mankind chose to come to this earth to progress and become more like God. For this reason two innocent beings were placed in the garden not knowing what death was or sin or disobedience. Allowing the devil to tempt Eve caused here to enter this fallen world and be able to fulfill the commandment of multiplying and replenishing the earth. Eve helped Adam to decide to also partake of the fruit so that he could stay with her and continue to fulfill God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. Once they partook of the fruit, God the Father had this to say:

Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Here we see that mankind became more like the Gods knowing good from evil. They had actually become more like God. Having the knowledge did not destroy their innocence but disobeying God's command. God is an all knowing being who retains his innocence. The fall of man was essential for our eternal progression. In the end we will all resurrect with an immortal body and live in eternity. Jesus himself has a body that he will retain for all eternity.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Having a body gives us more joy. This life is all part of God's plan that we all chose to participate in before the foundation of this earth.

I'm sorry; however, your belief that all humans were spirit babies born to a "Heaven mother" and sired by a Heavenly Father is totally not founded upon the Holy Bible, and I feel is part of a theology concocted by Satan to distort GOD's eternal supremacy which surpasses HIS creation of EVERYTHING. GOD has only one begotten SON (a term used to accredit position within the GODHEAD) . Beside ONE GOD (FATHER, SON, and SPIRIT) there are no other gods nor will there ever be.

The entire notion that spirit beings would even wish to leave the presence of GOD so that they might achieve an immortal body is just wrong and demeaning to what the MESSIAH actually did do. The very fact that Mr. Smith died an ignoramus death at a young age only seems to spotlight the fact that GOD ended his life by withdrawing any protection from such a misguided deceitful individual -- who most likely was demon possessed, and believed his own distortions.

MAN was CREATED a little lower than the angels. The angels were CREATED seemingly prior to humanity. The entire UNIVERSE with everything that exists was CREATED by GOD and for GOD. I really don't like to be confrontational; however, GOD has laid it on my heart that Mormonism is a man-made distortion that has as its inspiration, the devil himself and his desire to become GOD himself. Mr. Smith elevated his supposed "translation" of book of Mormon above the Bible. I'm not seeking to destroy any faith which you may possess in GOD; however, any faith you may place upon Mr Joseph Smith is ill placed.

The fact that Mormonism assesses Jesus and Lucifer to be related, that the Bible has been corrupted; that all "Christians" outside the Mormon church have been in a state of apostasy since the Church was founded; that GOD must have a "heavenly wife" (if not more than one); that GOD had intercourse with Mary; that GOD was once a being like us on some distant planet and became Deified; that Mormon duties are necessary for heavenly acceptance; that Jesus was married, and the list goes on and on --- only magnify the obvious to a true born-again believer once such is revealed...

Mormonism is heresy of the worse kind, as it insidiously distorts the historic terms of true Christian doctrine with counterfeit meaning that sound almost the same but in essence are very different. It distorts the truth of Our eternal absolute CREATOR GOD, who is second in line to NONE --- because no others exist. Yes, Mormons are very nice, polite people, but then even Satan may appear as an angel of light in order to beguile, distort, corrupt, and lead astray.

 

[onefour1]

Mankind existed prior to coming to the earth as spiritual children of God. God gave them the opportunity to progress and become more like him by receiving a body of flesh and bones and experiencing the knowledge through thought and experience of a fallen world. Mankind chose to come to this earth to progress and become more like God. For this reason two innocent beings were placed in the garden not knowing what death was or sin or disobedience. Allowing the devil to tempt Eve caused here to enter this fallen world and be able to fulfill the commandment of multiplying and replenishing the earth. Eve helped Adam to decide to also partake of the fruit so that he could stay with her and continue to fulfill God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. Once they partook of the fruit, God the Father had this to say:

Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Here we see that mankind became more like the Gods knowing good from evil. They had actually become more like God. Having the knowledge did not destroy their innocence but disobeying God's command. God is an all knowing being who retains his innocence. The fall of man was essential for our eternal progression. In the end we will all resurrect with an immortal body and live in eternity. Jesus himself has a body that he will retain for all eternity.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Having a body gives us more joy. This life is all part of God's plan that we all chose to participate in before the foundation of this earth.

I'm sorry; however, your belief that all humans were spirit babies born to a "Heaven mother" and sired by a Heavenly Father is totally not founded upon the Holy Bible, and I feel is a theology concocted by Satan to distort GOD's eternal supremacy which surpasses HIS creation of EVERYTHING. GOD has only one begotten SON (a term used to accredit position within the GODHEAD) . Beside ONE GOD (FATHER, SON, and SPIRIT) there are no other gods nor will there ever be.

Lets take a look at the Bible. We know from the book of Job that there were those who existed before the foundation of this earth who were called "the sons of God."

Job 38:4-7
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

From this verse we know that from the foundation of this earth, before Adam and Eve were upon the earth, God had sons that sang for joy when the earth was being created.

God himself is known as the father of spirits.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

From this verse we know that God is the father of our spirits. Paul in Athens taught that we are the offspring of God.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that upon death the spirit will return unto God who gave it. Obviously the spirit was not created here on earth else how could it return unto God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I won't list all the scriptures where God is also called our Father in Heaven.

The Apostle Paul taught the saints in Ephesus that they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We learn from this verse that the members who were in Ephesus were chosen before the foundation of the world and were predestinated to be adopted as children of Christ.

Jeremiah the Prophet likewise was foreordained to be a prophet before he was born.

Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

The disciples of Jesus understood that we existed before coming to this earth and this is the reason why they asked if the blind man sinned before being born.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Why would the disciples believe that the man could sin before he was born? The disciples knew that the spirits of mankind existed prior to coming to this earth. Jesus didn't correct them for think such a thing. He simple said "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents."

John the Revelator tells us that we on this earth who need the blood of the lamb to overcome the devil existed in heaven and fought against the devil and his angels before Satan was cast out into this earth.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In verse 10 a loud voice is heard in heaven and tells John that the accuser of our brethren is cast down. The brethren spoken of are Michael and his angels. These brethren, ie Michael and his angels who fought in the war in heaven, had to overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb according to verse 11. Who do you know that needs to use the blood of the lamb to overcome the Devil? We also understand that these brethren also were subject unto death. Who do you know of that is subject to death and also needs the blood of the lamb to overcome the Devil? We on this earth were those who fought with Michael and were his angels. We are now in a position to overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb and we are subject to death. We were all valiant in the premortal existence and fought against the devil and his angels. Angels are not a different species from mankind.

Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. As the verses above teach us that there were children of God before the foundation of this earth and that they were the offspring of God. God is known as the father of spirits. No other person was begotten of the Father in the flesh other than Jesus but in the pre-earth life, he had many sons and we are they. These teachings from the Bible do not lessen God's supremacy one iota. He is still God. And if there are no other gods then why did Jesus call us gods.

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus believed that his children were sons of God and therefore gods. On this earth we may not have the authority and power of God and we are not recognized as the God of this earth, but we were in all reality called gods by Jesus himself.

The entire notion that spirit beings would even wish to leave the presence of GOD so that they might achieve an immortal body is just wrong and demeaning to what the MESSIAH did do. The very fact that Mr. Smith died an ignoramus death at a young age only seems to spotlight the fact that GOD ended his life by withdrawing any protection from such a misguided deceitful individual -- who most likely was demon possessed, and believed his own distortions.

It isn't demeaning at all! It all part of our eternal progression. Jesus is a resurrected being who will never again die or be separated from his resurrected body. The body is not demeaning or wrong. It is an eternal achievement and all those who come to this earth will resurrected with an immortal body and live forever. I doubt you know much about the Prophet Joseph Smith.

MAN was CREATED a little lower than the angels. The angels were CREATED seemingly prior to humanity. The entire universe was CREATED. I really don't like to be confrontational; however, GOD has laid it on my heart that Mormonism is a man-made distortion that has as its inspiration, the devil himself and his desire to become GOD himself. Mr. Smith elevated his supposed "translation" of book of Mormon above the Bible. I'm not seeking to destroy any faith which you may possess in GOD; however, any faith you may place upon Mr Joseph Smith is ill placed.

Angels are not a separate species than man. The angels in the following verses were all men.

Acts 10:30
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

Genesis 19:1-5
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

In the last verse above, in the phrase "that we might know them", the word "know" is the same as it is in Gen 4:1:

Genesis 4:1
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Basically it means to have sexual intercourse. So the homosexual men of Sodom sought to have sexual intercourse with the angels (men) who came to the home of Lot.

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Angels are men who have come to this earth or will come to this earth. They are not a separate species than mankind. All mankind are the spiritual offspring of our Father in heaven.

The fact that Mormonism assesses Jesus and Lucifer to be related, that the Bible has been corrupted; that all "Christians" outside the Mormon church have been in a state of apostasy since the Church was founded; that GOD must have a "heavenly wife" (if not more than one); that GOD had intercourse with Mary; that GOD was once a being like us on some distant planet and became Deified; that Mormon duties are necessary for heavenly acceptance, and the list goes on and on --- only magnify the obvious to a true born-again believer once revealed...

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Luke 10:18
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

What was Satan doing in heaven in the first place? Why was he called a son of the morning? The truth is that he was numbered among the morning stars in heaven and was a son of God before falling. Just as you or I could fall from grace just as Cain or Judas did and became sons of Perdition, so too was this possible in heaven before the foundation of this earth and Lucifer and his angels fell. It was only when they rebelled against God that they were cast out of heaven. Show me your proof that I am wrong.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God. However, it has gone through the hands of many in translation. So we do believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly by those who have had a hand in the translation. We study it and believe in it and there is little if any issue with the translations. You've been listening to the anti-mormons too much.

We do believe that through Joseph Smith, the true church was restored after the original church fell into apostasy. We do believe that man and woman can be eternally joined together.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

We believe Adam and Eve were married in an eternal state before the fall.

Genesis 3:8
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

Here we see that they were man and wife before the fall. Had Adam and Eve never chosen to partake of the forbidden fruit, they would have been married for eternity.

We don't teach that God had intercourse with Mary. There are members who might make that assumption but it is not scriptural. If man can do artificial insemination, I have no doubt that God himself has the power to do so without a surgery. Intercourse with Mary is not a teaching of the church though some members might believe it to be.

We do believe that God was not always God for eternity past. I challenge you to find a verse in the Bible that teaches that. When the Bible says that God was God from eternity to all eternity, we believe that refers to God being God before the time of this earth and has remained God from that time until this mortal earth passes away and we enter all eternity in the future. We don't believe it has the meaning that God was God for ALL eternity past. We do however believe that God had an existence for all eternity past but not necessarily as a God. We believe that all mankind have had an eternal existence. We believe that eternal existence was as an intelligence. We later were born as children of God and our intelligences became part of our spirit bodies before coming to this earth. Just as the spirit could enter the mortal body, so too can the intelligence enter the spirit body.

We do believe that God requires a work at our hands before he will grant the grace sufficient to enter into his kingdom. First he requires that we repent of any of our sins. Second, he requires that we receive baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Third, he requires that we continue repenting as we make mistakes in our lives. It is a false claim that we believe that our works directly save us. They are required however by the Lord before he will grant the grace sufficient to save our souls. As James the Apostle taught, "Faith without works is dead". A true faith is required in order to receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't believe that we are saved in our sins but that we are saved from our sins. See my post on repentance. I am willing to debate any of our teachings and challenge anyone to prove from the Bible that they are false.

Mormonism is heresy of the worse kind, as it insidiously distorts the historic terms of true Christian doctrine with counterfeit meaning that sound almost the same but in essence are very different. It distorts the truth of Our eternal absolute CREATOR GOD, who is second in line to NONE --- because no others exist. Yes, Mormons are very nice, polite people, but then even Satan may appear as an angel of light in order to beguile, distort, corrupt, and lead astray.

I have not seen anybody refute our teachings by using the Bible. Mostly I see a difference in interpretation. I know many, many believe that God created everything out of nothing but that is simply not a Biblical truth. The word create does not imply creatio ex nihilo and no where in the bible does it state that he creates from nothing. You can call us all the names you have done in your post but they are simply not true. I will debate you on any topic that is in our standard works. Pulling something out of history and claiming that it is part of our doctrine is not a good argument. People voice opinions in their life and those opinions might get recorded but that does not mean it is part of our accepted doctrine. Many anti-mormons are guilty of claiming such opinions to be our doctrine. Not so. Even in our history the Lord corrected Joseph Smith and others on points of doctrine. Before debating however, I will require that you reveal your own choice of Christian sect.

 

[LittleNipper]

Mankind existed prior to coming to the earth as spiritual children of God. God gave them the opportunity to progress and become more like him by receiving a body of flesh and bones and experiencing the knowledge through thought and experience of a fallen world. Mankind chose to come to this earth to progress and become more like God. For this reason two innocent beings were placed in the garden not knowing what death was or sin or disobedience. Allowing the devil to tempt Eve caused here to enter this fallen world and be able to fulfill the commandment of multiplying and replenishing the earth. Eve helped Adam to decide to also partake of the fruit so that he could stay with her and continue to fulfill God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. Once they partook of the fruit, God the Father had this to say:

Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Here we see that mankind became more like the Gods knowing good from evil. They had actually become more like God. Having the knowledge did not destroy their innocence but disobeying God's command. God is an all knowing being who retains his innocence. The fall of man was essential for our eternal progression. In the end we will all resurrect with an immortal body and live in eternity. Jesus himself has a body that he will retain for all eternity.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Having a body gives us more joy. This life is all part of God's plan that we all chose to participate in before the foundation of this earth.

I'm sorry; however, your belief that all humans were spirit babies born to a "Heaven mother" and sired by a Heavenly Father is totally not founded upon the Holy Bible, and I feel is a theology concocted by Satan to distort GOD's eternal supremacy which surpasses HIS creation of EVERYTHING. GOD has only one begotten SON (a term used to accredit position within the GODHEAD) . Beside ONE GOD (FATHER, SON, and SPIRIT) there are no other gods nor will there ever be.

Lets take a look at the Bible. We know from the book of Job that there were those who existed before the foundation of this earth who were called "the sons of God."

Job 38:4-7
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

From this verse we know that from the foundation of this earth, before Adam and Eve were upon the earth, God had sons that sang for joy when the earth was being created.

God himself is known as the father of spirits.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

From this verse we know that God is the father of our spirits. Paul in Athens taught that we are the offspring of God.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that upon death the spirit will return unto God who gave it. Obviously the spirit was not created here on earth else how could it return unto God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I won't list all the scriptures where God is also called our Father in Heaven.

The Apostle Paul taught the saints in Ephesus that they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We learn from this verse that the members who were in Ephesus were chosen before the foundation of the world and were predestinated to be adopted as children of Christ.

Jeremiah the Prophet likewise was foreordained to be a prophet before he was born.

Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

The disciples of Jesus understood that we existed before coming to this earth and this is the reason why they asked if the blind man sinned before being born.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Why would the disciples believe that the man could sin before he was born? The disciples knew that the spirits of mankind existed prior to coming to this earth. Jesus didn't correct them for think such a thing. He simple said "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents."

John the Revelator tells us that we on this earth who need the blood of the lamb to overcome the devil existed in heaven and fought against the devil and his angels before Satan was cast out into this earth.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In verse 10 a loud voice is heard in heaven and tells John that the accuser of our brethren is cast down. The brethren spoken of are Michael and his angels. These brethren, ie Michael and his angels who fought in the war in heaven, had to overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb according to verse 11. Who do you know that needs to use the blood of the lamb to overcome the Devil? We also understand that these brethren also were subject unto death. Who do you know of that is subject to death and also needs the blood of the lamb to overcome the Devil? We on this earth were those who fought with Michael and were his angels. We are now in a position to overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb and we are subject to death. We were all valiant in the premortal existence and fought against the devil and his angels. Angels are not a different species from mankind.

Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. As the verses above teach us that there were children of God before the foundation of this earth and that they were the offspring of God. God is known as the father of spirits. No other person was begotten of the Father in the flesh other than Jesus but in the pre-earth life, he had many sons and we are they. These teachings from the Bible do not lessen God's supremacy one iota. He is still God. And if there are no other gods then why did Jesus call us gods.

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus believed that his children were sons of God and therefore gods. On this earth we may not have the authority and power of God and we are not recognized as the God of this earth, but we were in all reality called gods by Jesus himself.

The entire notion that spirit beings would even wish to leave the presence of GOD so that they might achieve an immortal body is just wrong and demeaning to what the MESSIAH did do. The very fact that Mr. Smith died an ignoramus death at a young age only seems to spotlight the fact that GOD ended his life by withdrawing any protection from such a misguided deceitful individual -- who most likely was demon possessed, and believed his own distortions.

It isn't demeaning at all! It all part of our eternal progression. Jesus is a resurrected being who will never again die or be separated from his resurrected body. The body is not demeaning or wrong. It is an eternal achievement and all those who come to this earth will resurrected with an immortal body and live forever. I doubt you know much about the Prophet Joseph Smith.

MAN was CREATED a little lower than the angels. The angels were CREATED seemingly prior to humanity. The entire universe was CREATED. I really don't like to be confrontational; however, GOD has laid it on my heart that Mormonism is a man-made distortion that has as its inspiration, the devil himself and his desire to become GOD himself. Mr. Smith elevated his supposed "translation" of book of Mormon above the Bible. I'm not seeking to destroy any faith which you may possess in GOD; however, any faith you may place upon Mr Joseph Smith is ill placed.

Angels are not a separate species than man. The angels in the following verses were all men.

Acts 10:30
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

Genesis 19:1-5
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

In the last verse above, in the phrase "that we might know them", the word "know" is the same as it is in Gen 4:1:

Genesis 4:1
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Basically it means to have sexual intercourse. So the homosexual men of Sodom sought to have sexual intercourse with the angels (men) who came to the home of Lot.

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Angels are men who have come to this earth or will come to this earth. They are not a separate species than mankind. All mankind are the spiritual offspring of our Father in heaven.

The fact that Mormonism assesses Jesus and Lucifer to be related, that the Bible has been corrupted; that all "Christians" outside the Mormon church have been in a state of apostasy since the Church was founded; that GOD must have a "heavenly wife" (if not more than one); that GOD had intercourse with Mary; that GOD was once a being like us on some distant planet and became Deified; that Mormon duties are necessary for heavenly acceptance, and the list goes on and on --- only magnify the obvious to a true born-again believer once revealed...

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Luke 10:18
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

What was Satan doing in heaven in the first place? Why was he called a son of the morning? The truth is that he was numbered among the morning stars in heaven and was a son of God before falling. Just as you or I could fall from grace just as Cain or Judas did and became sons of Perdition, so too was this possible in heaven before the foundation of this earth and Lucifer and his angels fell. It was only when they rebelled against God that they were cast out of heaven. Show me your proof that I am wrong.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God. However, it has gone through the hands of many in translation. So we do believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly by those who have had a hand in the translation. We study it and believe in it and there is little if any issue with the translations. You've been listening to the anti-mormons too much.

We do believe that through Joseph Smith, the true church was restored after the original church fell into apostasy. We do believe that man and woman can be eternally joined together.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

We believe Adam and Eve were married in an eternal state before the fall.

Genesis 3:8
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

Here we see that they were man and wife before the fall. Had Adam and Eve never chosen to partake of the forbidden fruit, they would have been married for eternity.

We don't teach that God had intercourse with Mary. There are members who might make that assumption but it is not scriptural. If man can do artificial insemination, I have no doubt that God himself has the power to do so without a surgery. Intercourse with Mary is not a teaching of the church though some members might believe it to be.

We do believe that God was not always God for eternity past. I challenge you to find a verse in the Bible that teaches that. When the Bible says that God was God from eternity to all eternity, we believe that refers to God being God before the time of this earth and has remained God from that time until this mortal earth passes away and we enter all eternity in the future. We don't believe it has the meaning that God was God for ALL eternity past. We do however believe that God had an existence for all eternity past but not necessarily as a God. We believe that all mankind have had an eternal existence. We believe that eternal existence was as an intelligence. We later were born as children of God and our intelligences became part of our spirit bodies before coming to this earth. Just as the spirit could enter the mortal body, so too can the intelligence enter the spirit body.

We do believe that God requires a work at our hands before he will grant the grace sufficient to enter into his kingdom. First he requires that we repent of any of our sins. Second, he requires that we receive baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Third, he requires that we continue repenting as we make mistakes in our lives. It is a false claim that we believe that our works directly save us. They are required however by the Lord before he will grant the grace sufficient to save our souls. As James the Apostle taught, "Faith without works is dead". A true faith is required in order to receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't believe that we are saved in our sins but that we are saved from our sins. See my post on repentance. I am willing to debate any of our teachings and challenge anyone to prove from the Bible that they are false.

Mormonism is heresy of the worse kind, as it insidiously distorts the historic terms of true Christian doctrine with counterfeit meaning that sound almost the same but in essence are very different. It distorts the truth of Our eternal absolute CREATOR GOD, who is second in line to NONE --- because no others exist. Yes, Mormons are very nice, polite people, but then even Satan may appear as an angel of light in order to beguile, distort, corrupt, and lead astray.

I have not seen anybody refute our teachings by using the Bible. Mostly I see a difference in interpretation. I know many, many believe that God created everything out of nothing but that is simply not a Biblical truth. The word create does not imply creatio ex nihilo and no where in the bible does it state that he creates from nothing. You can call us all the names you have done in your post but they are simply not true. I will debate you on any topic that is in our standard works. Pulling something out of history and claiming that it is part of our doctrine is not a good argument. People voice opinions in their life and those opinions might get recorded but that does not mean it is part of our accepted doctrine. Many anti-mormons are guilty of claiming such opinions to be our doctrine. Not so. Even in our history the Lord corrected Joseph Smith and others on points of doctrine. Before debating however, I will require that you reveal your own choice of Christian sect.

Hebrews 2:7-9

New International Version

7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”
In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Does the story tell us something other than do not defy God and do not trust the snake? Is it saying that if we humans seek after knowledge we become smart but lose innocence? Smart but no longer innocent.

1. The Garden of Eden never existed.
2. At some point, one has to lose their innocence to propagate the species, or mankind would have quickly become extinct.

 

[LittleNipper]

Does the story tell us something other than do not defy God and do not trust the snake? Is it saying that if we humans seek after knowledge we become smart but lose innocence? Smart but no longer innocent.

1. The Garden of Eden never existed.
2. At some point, one has to lose their innocence to propagate the species, or mankind would have quickly become extinct.

There nothing wrong with the act of SEX if it is used as a sign of love AND to propagate/procreate with one's own spouse. There of no loss of innocence in that. And yes, there is absolutely no reason to suggest that the Garden of Eden never existed.

 

[LittleNipper]

Mankind existed prior to coming to the earth as spiritual children of God. God gave them the opportunity to progress and become more like him by receiving a body of flesh and bones and experiencing the knowledge through thought and experience of a fallen world. Mankind chose to come to this earth to progress and become more like God. For this reason two innocent beings were placed in the garden not knowing what death was or sin or disobedience. Allowing the devil to tempt Eve caused here to enter this fallen world and be able to fulfill the commandment of multiplying and replenishing the earth. Eve helped Adam to decide to also partake of the fruit so that he could stay with her and continue to fulfill God's commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. Once they partook of the fruit, God the Father had this to say:

Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Here we see that mankind became more like the Gods knowing good from evil. They had actually become more like God. Having the knowledge did not destroy their innocence but disobeying God's command. God is an all knowing being who retains his innocence. The fall of man was essential for our eternal progression. In the end we will all resurrect with an immortal body and live in eternity. Jesus himself has a body that he will retain for all eternity.

Revelation 1:18
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Having a body gives us more joy. This life is all part of God's plan that we all chose to participate in before the foundation of this earth.

I'm sorry; however, your belief that all humans were spirit babies born to a "Heaven mother" and sired by a Heavenly Father is totally not founded upon the Holy Bible, and I feel is a theology concocted by Satan to distort GOD's eternal supremacy which surpasses HIS creation of EVERYTHING. GOD has only one begotten SON (a term used to accredit position within the GODHEAD) . Beside ONE GOD (FATHER, SON, and SPIRIT) there are no other gods nor will there ever be.

Lets take a look at the Bible. We know from the book of Job that there were those who existed before the foundation of this earth who were called "the sons of God."

Job 38:4-7
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

From this verse we know that from the foundation of this earth, before Adam and Eve were upon the earth, God had sons that sang for joy when the earth was being created.

God himself is known as the father of spirits.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

From this verse we know that God is the father of our spirits. Paul in Athens taught that we are the offspring of God.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that upon death the spirit will return unto God who gave it. Obviously the spirit was not created here on earth else how could it return unto God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I won't list all the scriptures where God is also called our Father in Heaven.

The Apostle Paul taught the saints in Ephesus that they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We learn from this verse that the members who were in Ephesus were chosen before the foundation of the world and were predestinated to be adopted as children of Christ.

Jeremiah the Prophet likewise was foreordained to be a prophet before he was born.

Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

The disciples of Jesus understood that we existed before coming to this earth and this is the reason why they asked if the blind man sinned before being born.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Why would the disciples believe that the man could sin before he was born? The disciples knew that the spirits of mankind existed prior to coming to this earth. Jesus didn't correct them for think such a thing. He simple said "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents."

John the Revelator tells us that we on this earth who need the blood of the lamb to overcome the devil existed in heaven and fought against the devil and his angels before Satan was cast out into this earth.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In verse 10 a loud voice is heard in heaven and tells John that the accuser of our brethren is cast down. The brethren spoken of are Michael and his angels. These brethren, ie Michael and his angels who fought in the war in heaven, had to overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb according to verse 11. Who do you know that needs to use the blood of the lamb to overcome the Devil? We also understand that these brethren also were subject unto death. Who do you know of that is subject to death and also needs the blood of the lamb to overcome the Devil? We on this earth were those who fought with Michael and were his angels. We are now in a position to overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb and we are subject to death. We were all valiant in the premortal existence and fought against the devil and his angels. Angels are not a different species from mankind.

Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. As the verses above teach us that there were children of God before the foundation of this earth and that they were the offspring of God. God is known as the father of spirits. No other person was begotten of the Father in the flesh other than Jesus but in the pre-earth life, he had many sons and we are they. These teachings from the Bible do not lessen God's supremacy one iota. He is still God. And if there are no other gods then why did Jesus call us gods.

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus believed that his children were sons of God and therefore gods. On this earth we may not have the authority and power of God and we are not recognized as the God of this earth, but we were in all reality called gods by Jesus himself.

The entire notion that spirit beings would even wish to leave the presence of GOD so that they might achieve an immortal body is just wrong and demeaning to what the MESSIAH did do. The very fact that Mr. Smith died an ignoramus death at a young age only seems to spotlight the fact that GOD ended his life by withdrawing any protection from such a misguided deceitful individual -- who most likely was demon possessed, and believed his own distortions.

It isn't demeaning at all! It all part of our eternal progression. Jesus is a resurrected being who will never again die or be separated from his resurrected body. The body is not demeaning or wrong. It is an eternal achievement and all those who come to this earth will resurrected with an immortal body and live forever. I doubt you know much about the Prophet Joseph Smith.

MAN was CREATED a little lower than the angels. The angels were CREATED seemingly prior to humanity. The entire universe was CREATED. I really don't like to be confrontational; however, GOD has laid it on my heart that Mormonism is a man-made distortion that has as its inspiration, the devil himself and his desire to become GOD himself. Mr. Smith elevated his supposed "translation" of book of Mormon above the Bible. I'm not seeking to destroy any faith which you may possess in GOD; however, any faith you may place upon Mr Joseph Smith is ill placed.

Angels are not a separate species than man. The angels in the following verses were all men.

Acts 10:30
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

Genesis 19:1-5
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

In the last verse above, in the phrase "that we might know them", the word "know" is the same as it is in Gen 4:1:

Genesis 4:1
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Basically it means to have sexual intercourse. So the homosexual men of Sodom sought to have sexual intercourse with the angels (men) who came to the home of Lot.

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Angels are men who have come to this earth or will come to this earth. They are not a separate species than mankind. All mankind are the spiritual offspring of our Father in heaven.

The fact that Mormonism assesses Jesus and Lucifer to be related, that the Bible has been corrupted; that all "Christians" outside the Mormon church have been in a state of apostasy since the Church was founded; that GOD must have a "heavenly wife" (if not more than one); that GOD had intercourse with Mary; that GOD was once a being like us on some distant planet and became Deified; that Mormon duties are necessary for heavenly acceptance, and the list goes on and on --- only magnify the obvious to a true born-again believer once revealed...

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Luke 10:18
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

What was Satan doing in heaven in the first place? Why was he called a son of the morning? The truth is that he was numbered among the morning stars in heaven and was a son of God before falling. Just as you or I could fall from grace just as Cain or Judas did and became sons of Perdition, so too was this possible in heaven before the foundation of this earth and Lucifer and his angels fell. It was only when they rebelled against God that they were cast out of heaven. Show me your proof that I am wrong.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God. However, it has gone through the hands of many in translation. So we do believe it to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly by those who have had a hand in the translation. We study it and believe in it and there is little if any issue with the translations. You've been listening to the anti-mormons too much.

We do believe that through Joseph Smith, the true church was restored after the original church fell into apostasy. We do believe that man and woman can be eternally joined together.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

We believe Adam and Eve were married in an eternal state before the fall.

Genesis 3:8
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

Here we see that they were man and wife before the fall. Had Adam and Eve never chosen to partake of the forbidden fruit, they would have been married for eternity.

We don't teach that God had intercourse with Mary. There are members who might make that assumption but it is not scriptural. If man can do artificial insemination, I have no doubt that God himself has the power to do so without a surgery. Intercourse with Mary is not a teaching of the church though some members might believe it to be.

We do believe that God was not always God for eternity past. I challenge you to find a verse in the Bible that teaches that. When the Bible says that God was God from eternity to all eternity, we believe that refers to God being God before the time of this earth and has remained God from that time until this mortal earth passes away and we enter all eternity in the future. We don't believe it has the meaning that God was God for ALL eternity past. We do however believe that God had an existence for all eternity past but not necessarily as a God. We believe that all mankind have had an eternal existence. We believe that eternal existence was as an intelligence. We later were born as children of God and our intelligences became part of our spirit bodies before coming to this earth. Just as the spirit could enter the mortal body, so too can the intelligence enter the spirit body.

We do believe that God requires a work at our hands before he will grant the grace sufficient to enter into his kingdom. First he requires that we repent of any of our sins. Second, he requires that we receive baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Third, he requires that we continue repenting as we make mistakes in our lives. It is a false claim that we believe that our works directly save us. They are required however by the Lord before he will grant the grace sufficient to save our souls. As James the Apostle taught, "Faith without works is dead". A true faith is required in order to receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't believe that we are saved in our sins but that we are saved from our sins. See my post on repentance. I am willing to debate any of our teachings and challenge anyone to prove from the Bible that they are false.

Mormonism is heresy of the worse kind, as it insidiously distorts the historic terms of true Christian doctrine with counterfeit meaning that sound almost the same but in essence are very different. It distorts the truth of Our eternal absolute CREATOR GOD, who is second in line to NONE --- because no others exist. Yes, Mormons are very nice, polite people, but then even Satan may appear as an angel of light in order to beguile, distort, corrupt, and lead astray.

I have not seen anybody refute our teachings by using the Bible. Mostly I see a difference in interpretation. I know many, many believe that God created everything out of nothing but that is simply not a Biblical truth. The word create does not imply creatio ex nihilo and no where in the bible does it state that he creates from nothing. You can call us all the names you have done in your post but they are simply not true. I will debate you on any topic that is in our standard works. Pulling something out of history and claiming that it is part of our doctrine is not a good argument. People voice opinions in their life and those opinions might get recorded but that does not mean it is part of our accepted doctrine. Many anti-mormons are guilty of claiming such opinions to be our doctrine. Not so. Even in our history the Lord corrected Joseph Smith and others on points of doctrine. Before debating however, I will require that you reveal your own choice of Christian sect.

You may all wish to read this with regards to "THE" Morning Stars that sang together as the possible explanation: Who are the morning stars in Job 38:7?

 

[surada]

Does the story tell us something other than do not defy God and do not trust the snake? Is it saying that if we humans seek after knowledge we become smart but lose innocence? Smart but no longer innocent.

1. The Garden of Eden never existed.
2. At some point, one has to lose their innocence to propagate the species, or mankind would have quickly become extinct.

There nothing wrong with the act of SEX if it is used as a sign of love AND to propagate/procreate with one's own spouse. There of no loss of innocence in that. And yes, there is absolutely no reason to suggest that the Garden of Eden never existed.

Perhaps it did exist in Dilmun. It almost never rains there but there are lots of freshwater springs. The clay tablets found there are much older than Genesis and tell a similar story .. They also document the trade between Dilmun and Mesopotamia.