Facts on Health Care: what people are afraid of

[Procrustes Stretched]

People here and other places are afraid of rational discussion of how countries pay for health care and how we in America can fix things. The day we face this shit honestly and head on we have to admit failure and how our world views have led us to be treated like fools by the powers that be...insurance companies and their paid agents.

Why not consider a debate on the merits of this...Sick Around The World: How 5 Capitalist Democracies Pay For Health Care---Flaws and All?

 

[KittenKoder]

You aren't even looking at half the picture now ... 1/10th a picture does not a clear image make.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

United Kingdom
An interview with an expert on the UK's system +Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) spent on health care: 8.3

Average family premium: None; funded by taxation.

Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. Young people and the elderly are exempt from all drug co-pays.

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

Japan

An interview with an expert on Japan's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 8

Average family premium: $280 per month, with employers paying more than half.

Co-payments: 30 percent of the cost of a procedure, but the total amount paid in a month is capped according to income.

Germany

An interview with an expert on Germany's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 10.7

Average family premium: $750 per month; premiums are pegged to patients' income.

Co-payments: 10 euros ($15) every three months; some patients, like pregnant women, are exempt.

Taiwan

An interview with an expert on Taiwan's system +Percentage GDP spent on health care: 6.3

Average family premium: $650 per year for a family for four.

Co-payments: 20 percent of the cost of drugs, up to $6.50; up to $7 for outpatient care; $1.80 for dental and traditional Chinese medicine. There are exemptions for major diseases, childbirth, preventive services, and for the poor, veterans, and children.

Switzerland

An interview with an expert on Switzerland's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

d.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

You aren't even looking at half the picture now ... 1/10th a picture does not a clear image make.

The arguments being thrown around about the Health Care Plans being socialist or something like that are bogus, but they are not only based on how to pay for things...they are red herrings about a government take over of the health care system---hospitals, doctors, etc.

We should be debating how to P-A-Y for health care. What do we already pay and what would a single payer or other type plan look like.

 

[KittenKoder]

You aren't even looking at half the picture now ... 1/10th a picture does not a clear image make.

The arguments being thrown around about the Health Care Plans being socialist or something like that are bogus, but they are not only based on how to pay for things...they are red herrings about a government take over of the health care system---hospitals, doctors, etc.

We should be debating how to P-A-Y for health care. What do we already pay and what would a single payer or other type plan look like.

Really ... so who would you have decide how much it will cost us?

As I said, you are only looking at 1/10th the picture.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

You aren't even looking at half the picture now ... 1/10th a picture does not a clear image make.

The arguments being thrown around about the Health Care Plans being socialist or something like that are bogus, but they are not only based on how to pay for things...they are red herrings about a government take over of the health care system---hospitals, doctors, etc.

We should be debating how to P-A-Y for health care. What do we already pay and what would a single payer or other type plan look like.

Really ... so who would you have decide how much it will cost us?

As I said, you are only looking at 1/10th the picture.

How much does it cost us now...private and public? We all pay for the uninsured in emergencies. Many people get government paid insurance coverage (vets-tricare, eldery, disabled, children, etc...). No serious person I know of is proposing a government takeover of hospitals and doctors and pharmacies.

What is teh cost now? think...

 

[OneWorld]

How much does it cost us now...private and public? We all pay for the uninsured in emergencies. Many people get government paid insurance coverage (vets-tricare, eldery, disabled, children, etc...). No serious person I know of is proposing a government takeover of hospitals and doctors and pharmacies.

What is teh cost now? think...

You are talking to drones... and you want them to think? They'd rather cut off their heads than think. That's essentially what they're doing by not even considering what's really going on with health care.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

How much does it cost us now...private and public? We all pay for the uninsured in emergencies. Many people get government paid insurance coverage (vets-tricare, eldery, disabled, children, etc...). No serious person I know of is proposing a government takeover of hospitals and doctors and pharmacies.

What is teh cost now? think...

You are talking to drones... and you want them to think? They'd rather cut off their heads than think. That's essentially what they're doing by not even considering what's really going on with health care.

Fear, anger, anxiety, and hate and confusion mixed with poor critical thinking facilities in the mind of the average American makes for a great Free Market to rip people off with for-profit health insurance as the only player in the Free Market.

 

[OneWorld]

Fear, anger, anxiety, and hate and confusion mixed with poor critical thinking facilities in the mind of the average American makes for a great Free Market to rip people off with for-profit health insurance as the only player in the Free Market.

I honestly wish that Republicans had come up with health care reform, because then at least the drones would just do what they said. I've give up on Republican voters actually thinking about positions long ago. They are usually only the very successful business owners, and it's typically people like my uncle who are only thinking about how taxes are going to effect them personally (even though it's usually from a "I can only see the tip of my own nose perspective"). Meaning, there are a lot of tax policies that benefit the rich in the long run, but they can't even see that.

What can you do? Keep trying to point out that they are being lied to. I have converted a few Republicans (hard core republicans) that I've worked with in the past. All you can do is keep talking to them, and if they are intelligent, at some point good sense will knock them on their heads.

 

[Maple]

Obama realizes this also with the government run postal service. I just have to post this on all health care boards. These are HIS words today.

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

I wonder what problems a government run health care system would entail, hmmmm skyrocketing taxes on everything and everyone, rationing of care, check out the taxes on gasoline in all of the countries who have socialized medicine- go to Ask Jeeves- taxes on gasoline in Italy, see the comparison over the last 20 years, they are more than double ours.

 

[OneWorld]

Obama realizes this also with the government run postal service. I just have to post this on all health care boards. These are HIS words today.

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

I wonder what problems a government run health care system would entail, hmmmm skyrocketing taxes on everything and everyone, rationing of care, check out the taxes on gasoline in all of the countries who have socialized medicine- go to Ask Jeeves- taxes on gasoline in Italy, see the comparison over the last 20 years, they are more than double ours.

You should post sources, because you're taking them purposely out of context. He was joking when he said this.

Look, the problem is simple. If the private insurance is cheaper and better, then people will chose that.

What you need to resolve is WHY is you side of the isle lying to you, and purposely deceiving you? It's for a reason, so what is it?

 

[Big Black Dog]

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

When I heard Obama say this this afternoon in his town hall meeting, it summed it all up for me. The Post Office is 7 Billion in the hole just this year alone. Next year it will be another 7 Billion. Social Security - nearly bankrupt. Poor management by the US Government. Medicare - same thing. You keep saying that Republicans are dopes for not allowing the government to take over Health Care in this country. I think you are the one with rocks in your head. The government can't even manage these programs and you want me to trust them with my health care? What are you smoking. I can't believe a reasonable person would want this. The only people I believe that would want this is people who don't have health care and are looking for another freebe from the government paid for by the people who actually work for a living in this country. Just who do you think is going to pay for this health care? The US is damned near broke and this will push us over the edge. I wish this health care crap would go away so we could hear what Obama's next trillion dollar idea is. I'm sure like this health care takeover it will be a big damn joke.

 

[AllieBaba]

You aren't even looking at half the picture now ... 1/10th a picture does not a clear image make.

The arguments being thrown around about the Health Care Plans being socialist or something like that are bogus, but they are not only based on how to pay for things...they are red herrings about a government take over of the health care system---hospitals, doctors, etc.

We should be debating how to P-A-Y for health care. What do we already pay and what would a single payer or other type plan look like.

People try to get answers, and get gobbledygook like Specters "savings" commentary, about how we'll pay for it with money saved because fewer people are dying of cancer.

 

[AllieBaba]

Obama realizes this also with the government run postal service. I just have to post this on all health care boards. These are HIS words today.

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

I wonder what problems a government run health care system would entail, hmmmm skyrocketing taxes on everything and everyone, rationing of care, check out the taxes on gasoline in all of the countries who have socialized medicine- go to Ask Jeeves- taxes on gasoline in Italy, see the comparison over the last 20 years, they are more than double ours.

You should post sources.

Look, the problem is simple. If the private insurance is cheaper and better, then people will chose that.

What you need to resolve is WHY is you side of the isle lying to you, and purposely deceiving you? It's for a reason, so what is it?

Read the proposal. We won't have a choice.

 

[manu1959]

How much does it cost us now...private and public? We all pay for the uninsured in emergencies. Many people get government paid insurance coverage (vets-tricare, eldery, disabled, children, etc...). No serious person I know of is proposing a government takeover of hospitals and doctors and pharmacies.

What is teh cost now? think...

You are talking to drones... and you want them to think? They'd rather cut off their heads than think. That's essentially what they're doing by not even considering what's really going on with health care.

if the health care system is now bad....was it once good.....or has it always been bad....

if it has always been bad wat are you going to fix it to....what is a good system that can handel a country the size of the us....

if it was once good .... what were the things that caused it to become bad.....

in my opinion lawsuits and insurance companies not to mention health care plans have made "the care" bad.....because it is unafordable....if it was prue free enterprise with all medical costs being tax deductible......it would be much like it was back when it was good....

instead were are going create a government insurance company to price fix medical costs and sell or give this tax subsidized insurance to the population.....

 

[OneWorld]

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

When I heard Obama say this this afternoon in his town hall meeting, it summed it all up for me. The Post Office is 7 Billion in the hole just this year alone. Next year it will be another 7 Billion. Social Security - nearly bankrupt. Poor management by the US Government. Medicare - same thing. You keep saying that Republicans are dopes for not allowing the government to take over Health Care in this country. I think you are the one with rocks in your head. The government can't even manage these programs and you want me to trust them with my health care? What are you smoking. I can't believe a reasonable person would want this. The only people I believe that would want this is people who don't have health care and are looking for another freebe from the government paid for by the people who actually work for a living in this country. Just who do you think is going to pay for this health care? The US is damned near broke and this will push us over the edge. I wish this health care crap would go away so we could hear what Obama's next trillion dollar idea is. I'm sure like this health care takeover it will be a big damn joke.

He was saying that as a joke... but of course that won't be mentioned.

Sorry, but it's Republicans that are systematically trying to destory these insitutions (social security, etc...). People love Medicare hate to tell you.

The post office, along with many large corporations go through blocks of losses. I worked for a company that had over 3 years of huge loses... they have money set aside to cover these loses. NO INDUSTRY can accurately predict it's next fiscal year. If this were possible, then there's be a lot of rich traders on the market, but there aren't. Most don't make it.

The mail industry JUST LIKE the newspaper industry is going through major market changed. And you're going to have loses until they adjust to the market (which they are doing).

 

[OneWorld]

Read the proposal. We won't have a choice.

You mean the bill? Which one? I've read.... show me where it says that. And if I show you that it doesn't say that will you admit you're being lied to?

 

[AllieBaba]

Still waiting for it to load, dumbfuck. Brace yerself Effie.

 

[Vel]

How much does it cost us now...private and public? We all pay for the uninsured in emergencies. Many people get government paid insurance coverage (vets-tricare, eldery, disabled, children, etc...). No serious person I know of is proposing a government takeover of hospitals and doctors and pharmacies.

What is teh cost now? think...

You are talking to drones... and you want them to think? They'd rather cut off their heads than think. That's essentially what they're doing by not even considering what's really going on with health care.

if the health care system is now bad....was it once good.....or has it always been bad....

if it has always been bad wat are you going to fix it to....what is a good system that can handel a country the size of the us....

if it was once good .... what were the things that caused it to become bad.....

in my opinion lawsuits and insurance companies not to mention health care plans have made "the care" bad.....because it is unafordable....if it was prue free enterprise with all medical costs being tax deductible......it would be much like it was back when it was good....

instead were are going create a government insurance company to price fix medical costs and sell or give this tax subsidized insurance to the population.....

Tort reform seems to be one of the big things missing from Obama's health care debate. The cost of defensive ( CYA ) medicine is staggering. How many tests do you think are performed not because a doctor really thinks a patient might have a certain condition but just to make certain that in a worse case scenario, the doctor won't be sued? The CBO just came out today I think and said that we will not see any savings due to preventive medicine. Preventive medicine will actually increase overall health care costs. Wouldn't you think that a serious health care reform bill would address tort reform?

 

[manu1959]

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

When I heard Obama say this this afternoon in his town hall meeting, it summed it all up for me. The Post Office is 7 Billion in the hole just this year alone. Next year it will be another 7 Billion. Social Security - nearly bankrupt. Poor management by the US Government. Medicare - same thing. You keep saying that Republicans are dopes for not allowing the government to take over Health Care in this country. I think you are the one with rocks in your head. The government can't even manage these programs and you want me to trust them with my health care? What are you smoking. I can't believe a reasonable person would want this. The only people I believe that would want this is people who don't have health care and are looking for another freebe from the government paid for by the people who actually work for a living in this country. Just who do you think is going to pay for this health care? The US is damned near broke and this will push us over the edge. I wish this health care crap would go away so we could hear what Obama's next trillion dollar idea is. I'm sure like this health care takeover it will be a big damn joke.

He was saying that as a joke... but of course that won't be mentioned.

Sorry, but it's Republicans that are systematically trying to destory these insitutions (social security, etc...). People love Medicare hate to tell you.

The post office, along with many large corporations go through blocks of losses. I worked for a company that had over 3 years of huge loses... they have money set aside to cover these loses. NO INDUSTRY can accurately predict it's next fiscal year. If this were possible, then there's be a lot of rich traders on the market, but there aren't. Most don't make it.

The mail industry JUST LIKE the newspaper industry is going through major market changed. And you're going to have loses until they adjust to the market (which they are doing).

social security is a waste ...... the government has missmanged it borrowed against it and not made as much money for you as a private investment group could.....

the post office will be bailed out by the tax payers......and will never become profitable or competitive as they have no reason to.....