F-35s jets and S-400 missiles

[Silver Cat]

Congress Endorses Hypersonic Weapons as Development Ramps Up - Air Force Magazine

As the enemy catches up to our tech..........we advance to the next..........s4000 will not matter much in a decade.

Yes. S-500 will.
S-500 missile system - Wikipedia

Neither we or the Russians sell our best stuff.............We sell what we consider Obsolete but still good weapons........not the good stuff.

The S-500 will not be sold until it's obsolete.........Wash, Rinse, Spin, dry and repeat.

The S-500, by itself, isn't useable. It's not able to shoot down bombers, fighter, ASMs or any kind. It's strictly designed to be used against Ballistic Missiles. It's worthless for even cruise missiles. The S-400 still carries the bulk of the load. Right now, the S-400 needs the S-300 system to handle the Ballistic Missiles. This is why they have to wait until the S-500 is in the field to get rid of the S-300. As good as the S-400 is, it does have holes in what it can be used as.

Likely, it is able. The quote from the Russian avia.pro site (delete $):
http://$$$avia$$$.pro/news/rossiyskiy-s-500-poluchil-vozmozhnost-sbivat-celi-yadernymi-boegolovkami


The Russian S-500 system will be the only one in the world that can shoot down hundreds of targets simultaneously.
Beginning this year, tests of the latest Russian air defense / missile DEFENSE SYSTEM s-500 "Prometheus" began to acquire a number of details, so, according to the information publication "Rossiyskaya Gazeta", the s-500 "Prometheus" will receive anti-aircraft guided missiles equipped with nuclear warheads. This gives Russian systems the ability to simultaneously destroy dozens or even hundreds of targets, not to mention the powerful electromagnetic pulse created, which will completely disable radars over the territory of the enemy or allies.
"The s-500 will use both missiles from the s-400 Arsenal - for example, 40N6M with a confirmed combat range of 380 kilometers - and new ones that were not used in other systems. For example, the 77N6-N anti-missile is designed for transatmospheric interception of ballistic missiles at an altitude of up to 165 kilometers. To destroy satellites in low orbits, the S-500 has a 77N6-N1 rocket with a small nuclear warhead, " the newspaper reports.
Given the fact that nuclear weapons can also be equipped with missiles designed to hit aerodynamic targets, Russian Prometheus missiles will be able to simultaneously destroy large air formations.

 

[Silver Cat]

Coup-proofing? Making Sense of Turkey’s S-400 Decision | Missile Threat

Next Steps
Now that Turkey has acquired the S-400, the question is what the United States will do in response. The United States appears to be prudently terminating Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 program. Like his predecessor Patrick Shanahan, acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper has confirmed that the United States will suspend F-35 sales should Turkey acquire the S-400. Turkish pilots that had been training on the F-35 are being sent home, and a new foreign partner is being sought to substitute for Turkish involvement and investment.

Sanctions on Turkey for purchasing Russian military equipment are also likely. Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Congress in 2017 passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which imposes sanctions on any country purchasing significant military equipment from Russia. Turkey’s S-400 purchase puts the Trump administration in the awkward position of either enforcing sanctions on a NATO ally or pretending that Turkey’s S-400 acquisition is somehow a vital national security interest of the United States such that sanctions could be waived. Whether or not CAATSA sanctions are implemented, or for how long, allowing Turkey to have the F-35 is incompatible with Turkey’s operation of the S-400, and that sale must be terminated if Turkey operates the S-400.

But if Erdogan’s S-400 decision is driven by fundamental desire to preserve his rule—as a matter, as he says, of “national sovereignty”—then both the loss of the F-35 and CAATSA sanctions may be a price he is willing to pay.

If Turkey’s S-400 is indeed intended to provide military and political insurance for Erdogan against another coup attempt, it would go a long way to explaining why he is willing to endure considerable U.S. and NATO pressure to acquire it. This more specific purpose might explain why Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar still maintains that Turkey remains open to acquiring the Patriot—as defense against other external threats. In the long term, Turkey may reverse the current move towards Russia, perhaps in a post-Erdogan period. If so, the prospects of both F-35 and Patriot air defenses could be reopened along with a future integration with NATO air defenses. For now, however, Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 represents a significant win for Russia.

When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters

Really? Why? From what distance a Patriot PAC-3 can detect, say, a B-2A "Spirit"?

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.

But if the Turks will learn how to defeat the S-400, the American will get that information even before the Turks will learn it.

I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. The trick for the S-400 is to detect, lockon, get a firing solution, track with the weapon all the way to the hit. At any point, if the solution is broken, you start all over from scratch. Downing an F-35A with all it's bells and whistles in time before it launches one of it's standoffs is going to be tricky at best. A fully function US F-35A has never faced a fully function S-400 system. The only way for that to happen is for the US and Russia to go head to head. And I doubt if either side wants that question answered that bad.

Ok. Let's imagine, that we need to create a diversion, and then strike China, when Russia is distracted. We have (for example) two suicidal countries - the UK and Poland, they have to crush and conquere Kaliningrad region and then to die heroically under the full scale Russian attack, buying us some time to defeat China.
How many F-35 they need to do it?

Zero. Both Britain and Poland aren't that stupid to spend their wads meant to stop the Russians non some out of the way berg.

Sure, they are. If you can imagine any stupidity - they can do it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

When I view the capability between the Patriot and the S-400 I see some stark differences. In some areas the Patriot is better but it has a very narrow utiization as compared to the S-400. The S-400 isn't as good, say, against incoming Bombers and Fighters

Really? Why? From what distance a Patriot PAC-3 can detect, say, a B-2A "Spirit"?

But I'll say it again, Turkey gets the S-400 they don't get the F-35 because then they get to have them both side by side and can quickly learn how to defeat either one. It's not to the US best interest for the Turks to learn this and if the Turks learn it, you can damn well bank on the Russians will get that information 10 minutes after the Turks learn it.

But if the Turks will learn how to defeat the S-400, the American will get that information even before the Turks will learn it.

I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. The trick for the S-400 is to detect, lockon, get a firing solution, track with the weapon all the way to the hit. At any point, if the solution is broken, you start all over from scratch. Downing an F-35A with all it's bells and whistles in time before it launches one of it's standoffs is going to be tricky at best. A fully function US F-35A has never faced a fully function S-400 system. The only way for that to happen is for the US and Russia to go head to head. And I doubt if either side wants that question answered that bad.

Ok. Let's imagine, that we need to create a diversion, and then strike China, when Russia is distracted. We have (for example) two suicidal countries - the UK and Poland, they have to crush and conquere Kaliningrad region and then to die heroically under the full scale Russian attack, buying us some time to defeat China.
How many F-35 they need to do it?

Zero. Both Britain and Poland aren't that stupid to spend their wads meant to stop the Russians non some out of the way berg.

Sure, they are. If you can imagine any stupidity - they can do it.

YOU are that stupid but you aren't governing a nation.

 

[Silver Cat]

Really? Why? From what distance a Patriot PAC-3 can detect, say, a B-2A "Spirit"?

But if the Turks will learn how to defeat the S-400, the American will get that information even before the Turks will learn it.

I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. The trick for the S-400 is to detect, lockon, get a firing solution, track with the weapon all the way to the hit. At any point, if the solution is broken, you start all over from scratch. Downing an F-35A with all it's bells and whistles in time before it launches one of it's standoffs is going to be tricky at best. A fully function US F-35A has never faced a fully function S-400 system. The only way for that to happen is for the US and Russia to go head to head. And I doubt if either side wants that question answered that bad.

Ok. Let's imagine, that we need to create a diversion, and then strike China, when Russia is distracted. We have (for example) two suicidal countries - the UK and Poland, they have to crush and conquere Kaliningrad region and then to die heroically under the full scale Russian attack, buying us some time to defeat China.
How many F-35 they need to do it?

Zero. Both Britain and Poland aren't that stupid to spend their wads meant to stop the Russians non some out of the way berg.

Sure, they are. If you can imagine any stupidity - they can do it.

YOU are that stupid but you aren't governing a nation.

Do you really believe, that "the nation governors" are something special? They are ordinary people with all human weaknesses.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. The trick for the S-400 is to detect, lockon, get a firing solution, track with the weapon all the way to the hit. At any point, if the solution is broken, you start all over from scratch. Downing an F-35A with all it's bells and whistles in time before it launches one of it's standoffs is going to be tricky at best. A fully function US F-35A has never faced a fully function S-400 system. The only way for that to happen is for the US and Russia to go head to head. And I doubt if either side wants that question answered that bad.

Ok. Let's imagine, that we need to create a diversion, and then strike China, when Russia is distracted. We have (for example) two suicidal countries - the UK and Poland, they have to crush and conquere Kaliningrad region and then to die heroically under the full scale Russian attack, buying us some time to defeat China.
How many F-35 they need to do it?

Zero. Both Britain and Poland aren't that stupid to spend their wads meant to stop the Russians non some out of the way berg.

Sure, they are. If you can imagine any stupidity - they can do it.

YOU are that stupid but you aren't governing a nation.

Do you really believe, that "the nation governors" are something special? They are ordinary people with all human weaknesses.

And if they want to remain in power, they MUST be a whole lot smarter than you..

 

[Silver Cat]

Ok. Let's imagine, that we need to create a diversion, and then strike China, when Russia is distracted. We have (for example) two suicidal countries - the UK and Poland, they have to crush and conquere Kaliningrad region and then to die heroically under the full scale Russian attack, buying us some time to defeat China.
How many F-35 they need to do it?

Zero. Both Britain and Poland aren't that stupid to spend their wads meant to stop the Russians non some out of the way berg.

Sure, they are. If you can imagine any stupidity - they can do it.

YOU are that stupid but you aren't governing a nation.

Do you really believe, that "the nation governors" are something special? They are ordinary people with all human weaknesses.

And if they want to remain in power, they MUST be a whole lot smarter than you..

You are wrong again. They must be smarter not than me, they must be smarter than their competitors - other Brits and Poles, and it is much easier. And yes, not too many of them remain in power long enough to demonstrate their smartness.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Zero. Both Britain and Poland aren't that stupid to spend their wads meant to stop the Russians non some out of the way berg.

Sure, they are. If you can imagine any stupidity - they can do it.

YOU are that stupid but you aren't governing a nation.

Do you really believe, that "the nation governors" are something special? They are ordinary people with all human weaknesses.

And if they want to remain in power, they MUST be a whole lot smarter than you..

You are wrong again. They must be smarter not than me, they must be smarter than their competitors - other Brits and Poles, and it is much easier. And yes, not too many of them remain in power long enough to demonstrate their smartness.

Then if you are so damned smart, why aren't YOU in charge? Never heard of you and I am sure if you were in charge you wouldn't be wasting your time in here.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

Range is important, but not the only factor.

ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) vs ECCM (Electronic Counter-Counter Measures) is far more important.

Tactics, stealth, and cyber-attacks also factor highly.

And the best way to crush enemy's AAD is to send your tanks against it. Sure, there is no and can not be any "absolutely invincible defence". The only question is how much resourses you need to crush it. And from this point of view S-400 can be very good acquisition.

Send tanks against AAD? What comic book did you find those tactics in?

Hilarious!

 

[Daryl Hunt]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

Range is important, but not the only factor.

ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) vs ECCM (Electronic Counter-Counter Measures) is far more important.

Tactics, stealth, and cyber-attacks also factor highly.

And the best way to crush enemy's AAD is to send your tanks against it. Sure, there is no and can not be any "absolutely invincible defence". The only question is how much resourses you need to crush it. And from this point of view S-400 can be very good acquisition.

Send tanks against AAD? What comic book did you find those tactics in?

Hilarious!

You gotta watch out for those skiffs with the 120mm smooth bores mounted....Hey, where'd they go. They were here a minute ago. And what are all those bubbles from. His Military is frightening. Your Navy won't stand a chance.

 

[Silver Cat]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

Range is important, but not the only factor.

ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) vs ECCM (Electronic Counter-Counter Measures) is far more important.

Tactics, stealth, and cyber-attacks also factor highly.

And the best way to crush enemy's AAD is to send your tanks against it. Sure, there is no and can not be any "absolutely invincible defence". The only question is how much resourses you need to crush it. And from this point of view S-400 can be very good acquisition.

Send tanks against AAD? What comic book did you find those tactics in?

Hilarious!

Don't you want to start your military education with FM3-90?

"1-14. These options represent a starting point for the tactician to create a unique solution to a specific tactical problem. Each decision represents a choice among a range of options; each balances competing demands requiring judgment at every turn. While there may be checklists for techniques and procedures, there are no checklists for solving tactical problems. The commander must not look for a checklist approach to tactics; instead, he must use his experience and creativity to outthink his enemy."
[...]
"1-16. The second aspect of the art of tactics is decision making under conditions of uncertainty in a time-constrained environment and demonstrated by the clash of opposing wills—a violent struggle between two hostile, thinking, and independent opposing commanders with irreconcilable goals. Each commander wants to impose his will on his opponent, defeat his opponent's plans, and destroy his opponent's forces. Combat consists of the interplay between these two opposing commanders, with each commander seeking to accomplish his mission while preventing the other from doing the same. Every commander needs a high degree of creativity and clarity of thought to outwit a willing and able opponent. He must quickly apply his judgment to a less than omniscient common operational picture provided by his command and control (C2) system to understand the implications and opportunities afforded him by the situation. The commander always uses the most current intelligence in order to facilitate his visualization of the enemy and environment. That same C2 system transmits the decisions resulting from his situational understanding to those individuals and units required to engage and destroy the enemy force."

 

[DrainBamage]

No. It is just a scanario with best S-400 operators against the worst F-35 operators on the civilized, tank-friendly terrain. And yes, in this scenario, F-35B sucks.

Ahhh so now you've added yet another qualification to prove tanks are best for taking out IADS. The pilots, who must be in a certain plane and in certain numbers and completely exclusive other assets like in real world operations and cannot deploy guided minutes.... must also suck.

When you need to contort yourself into a pretzel to try to make a point, you really had no point.

 

[DrainBamage]

May be Turks have some info? And may be it is why they preffer to buy S-400.

So your speculation about Turkish motivations is proof of S-400s capabilities? That's incredibly naive. Money, politics, etc.

Forget about GPS if you are going to bomb a battalion of S-400 in the full configuration. And yes, in this scenario you don't have laser designators near the green men positions.

Great, your assets scream exactly where they are trying to jam GPS signals, F-35s quickly geolocate them and take them out with SDB2s, Spears, etc. that use millimeter wave radar on terminal.

Also = there is a laser designator under the nose of every F-35.

 

[DrainBamage]

I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. .

This. It used to be so much hype about S-300, but here is Israel operating in Syrian airspace with impunity striking whatever they want to strike using mainly 4th gen aircraft.

That video of the "invincible" Pantsir getting an Israeli missile through the driver's side window was emblematic of the hype versus reality of area denial.

 

[DrainBamage]

The Russian S-500 system will be the only one in the world that can shoot down hundreds of targets simultaneously.

Congrats on being able to regurgitate Russian marketing hype. You know they sell weapons right?

 

[DrainBamage]

Send tanks against AAD? What comic book did you find those tactics in?

Hilarious!

Well when challenged on this notion he quickly started adding more qualifiers with every post to support his scenario so I fully expect by page 10 of this thread he'll have a requirement that it's British F-35Bs with operating in a vacuum with no other assets, using unguided weapons, shitty pilots, EOTS laser designator smashed with a hammer before takeoff, and I'm guessing maybe they'll be forced to fly with their luneberg reflectors attached.

If I had was forced to use ground assets to take out IADS tanks would still be far down on my list of choices. Give me MLRS any day, they are meant for shredding soft targets from hundreds of miles away all you'd need is something to discover their location.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I would wager the US already know how to defeat the S-400. All the S-400 is is an updated S-300 and the Israelis have been having a field day against the S-300. .

This. It used to be so much hype about S-300, but here is Israel operating in Syrian airspace with impunity striking whatever they want to strike using mainly 4th gen aircraft.

That video of the "invincible" Pantsir getting an Israeli missile through the driver's side window was emblematic of the hype versus reality of area denial.

Thank you for finally identifying your location. That explains a lot.

 

[DrainBamage]

I didn't identify my location, and it changes all the time.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I didn't identify my location, and it changes all the time.

You don't have to. But I am willing to allow you to stay in that mystique if it makes you feel good. Let the Rubes just wonder even if in the back of their minds.

 

[Silver Cat]

Send tanks against AAD? What comic book did you find those tactics in?

Hilarious!

Well when challenged on this notion he quickly started adding more qualifiers with every post to support his scenario so I fully expect by page 10 of this thread he'll have a requirement that it's British F-35Bs with operating in a vacuum with no other assets, using unguided weapons, shitty pilots, EOTS laser designator smashed with a hammer before takeoff, and I'm guessing maybe they'll be forced to fly with their luneberg reflectors attached.

Ok. Lets play another game. Defender-2020, one of scenarios. Russia invades Baltic states, NATO needs to crush Kaliningrad's special defence region to open the way to defend them.
Russian forces in Kaliningrad's region:
- 5 S-400 regiments + 1 S-300V4 regiment - roughly 150 launchers (4 missiles each), with L-band radars, passive sensors, may be lidars and hell knows what else, covered with a number of short range systems, ECM, GPS-jammers, false targets and so on...
- one regiment of Su-27SM3, one regiment of Su-30SM and Su-24S;
- few hundred tanks, 40 of them - T-72B3;
- Iskander-M, Iskander-K, Calibers, with nuclear warheads.
- some ships of Baltic fleet.

What can Europeans (without the American help) do against Kaliningrad region?
I see two main options:
1) to knee and gobble (if we are talking about frontal air attack against well prepared IADS);
2) "Zerg rush" with big masses of land forces (for example, Poland have near 900 tanks) and tactical nukes.

If I had was forced to use ground assets to take out IADS tanks would still be far down on my list of choices. Give me MLRS any day, they are meant for shredding soft targets from hundreds of miles away all you'd need is something to discover their location.

Yes. Something to discover their location and something to protect them from the Scottish militants and the green men's Tunguskas. And don't forget, that PHA has only 21 of them (with 85 miles range), and S-400 can work against ground targets, too.

 

[Silver Cat]

The Russian S-500 system will be the only one in the world that can shoot down hundreds of targets simultaneously.

Congrats on being able to regurgitate Russian marketing hype. You know they sell weapons right?

Technically, I regurgitate American marketing hype. The general idea: "Europeans can not protect themselves, so Europeans have to pay."