Does the federal congress have the power to declare someone a citizen?

ihopehefails

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
3,384
Reaction score
228
Points
83
I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution. There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment.
 

Care4all

Warrior Princess
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
54,980
Reaction score
13,571
Points
2,220
Location
Maine
no, they can not declare a person a citizen, we are citizens of our respective State first, which then makes us USA citizens.
 

Care4all

Warrior Princess
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
54,980
Reaction score
13,571
Points
2,220
Location
Maine
the States themselves have the power to declare their own citizens....in the manner they deem is my understanding.
 

RetiredGySgt

Diamond Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
47,643
Reaction score
9,633
Points
2,040
Location
North Carolina
I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution. There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment.
Retard the Constitution GIVES the Federal Government the power to determine what qualifies one to be a Naturalized citizen.

Section 9.

The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.
Section 9 Article I.

Article I | LII / Legal Information Institute
 

RetiredGySgt

Diamond Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
47,643
Reaction score
9,633
Points
2,040
Location
North Carolina
the States themselves have the power to declare their own citizens....in the manner they deem is my understanding.
States can NOT naturalize people as US Citizens. Only the Federal Government can do that. States can set requirements for what makes one a citizen of that State which really only effects how the State will treat them.
 

Care4all

Warrior Princess
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
54,980
Reaction score
13,571
Points
2,220
Location
Maine
the States themselves have the power to declare their own citizens....in the manner they deem is my understanding.
States can NOT naturalize people as US Citizens. Only the Federal Government can do that. States can set requirements for what makes one a citizen of that State which really only effects how the State will treat them.
.... once a state declares a newborn a citizen, they automatically become a natural born citizen of the usa.

...the fed may have naturalization guidelines but the State is who makes them citizens of their State, then they automatically become a citizen of the UNITED States....was what i thought the process entailed?
 

RetiredGySgt

Diamond Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
47,643
Reaction score
9,633
Points
2,040
Location
North Carolina
the States themselves have the power to declare their own citizens....in the manner they deem is my understanding.
States can NOT naturalize people as US Citizens. Only the Federal Government can do that. States can set requirements for what makes one a citizen of that State which really only effects how the State will treat them.
.... once a state declares a newborn a citizen, they automatically become a natural born citizen of the usa.

...the fed may have naturalization guidelines but the State is who makes them citizens of their State, then they automatically become a citizen of the UNITED States....was what i thought the process entailed?
No States can not make citizens of the US. The Birth Certificate PROVES the life birth with in the borders of the US. The Congress has sole power to determine naturalization process. The Federal Government is the power that recognizes your citizenship via issuing a Passport.
 
OP
ihopehefails

ihopehefails

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
3,384
Reaction score
228
Points
83
States can NOT naturalize people as US Citizens. Only the Federal Government can do that. States can set requirements for what makes one a citizen of that State which really only effects how the State will treat them.
.... once a state declares a newborn a citizen, they automatically become a natural born citizen of the usa.

...the fed may have naturalization guidelines but the State is who makes them citizens of their State, then they automatically become a citizen of the UNITED States....was what i thought the process entailed?
No States can not make citizens of the US. The Birth Certificate PROVES the life birth with in the borders of the US. The Congress has sole power to determine naturalization process. The Federal Government is the power that recognizes your citizenship via issuing a Passport.
No dumbshit. The 14th amendment declares that if a person is a citizen of a state then they are also a citizen of the federal government. The process is defined as someone naturalized within that state so its dependent on that persons existence within that state. Neither states nor federal have the power to declare someone a citizen since the process is defined in the 14th amendment itself.

What I am saying is that this is a case where neither state nor federal has the power to decide someone's citizenship status since that process is defined in the constitution itself. Whenever the issue of someone's citizenship status is up for grabs the courts decide if that person has been naturalized within that state as stated in the 14th amendment.
 
Last edited:

Samson

Póg Mo Thóin
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
27,332
Reaction score
4,227
Points
245
Location
A Higher Plain
There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment. I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution.
 

antagon

The Man
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
3,572
Reaction score
295
Points
48
.... once a state declares a newborn a citizen, they automatically become a natural born citizen of the usa.

...the fed may have naturalization guidelines but the State is who makes them citizens of their State, then they automatically become a citizen of the UNITED States....was what i thought the process entailed?
No States can not make citizens of the US. The Birth Certificate PROVES the life birth with in the borders of the US. The Congress has sole power to determine naturalization process. The Federal Government is the power that recognizes your citizenship via issuing a Passport.
No dumbshit. The 14th amendment declares that if a person is a citizen of a state then they are also a citizen of the federal government. The process is defined as someone naturalized within that state so its dependent on that persons existence within that state. Neither states nor federal have the power to declare someone a citizen since the process is defined in the 14th amendment itself.

What I am saying is that this is a case where neither state nor federal has the power to decide someone's citizenship status since that process is defined in the constitution itself. Whenever the issue of someone's citizenship status is up for grabs the courts decide if that person has been naturalized within that state as stated in the 14th amendment.
nah, 'fails... fumble! you love the constitution which is great, but you struggle with the thing so often.

the 14th conveys state citizenship by virtue of 1/ fed citizenship and 2/ state residence, not the other way around. states can convey citizenship where an individual wasnt a US citizen, and this has no bearing on national citizenship, whatsoever.
 

antagon

The Man
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
3,572
Reaction score
295
Points
48
There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment. I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution.
:rolleyes:you guys are crazy. this whole citizenship thing is an enumerated power. shocking.
 
OP
ihopehefails

ihopehefails

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
3,384
Reaction score
228
Points
83
No States can not make citizens of the US. The Birth Certificate PROVES the life birth with in the borders of the US. The Congress has sole power to determine naturalization process. The Federal Government is the power that recognizes your citizenship via issuing a Passport.
No dumbshit. The 14th amendment declares that if a person is a citizen of a state then they are also a citizen of the federal government. The process is defined as someone naturalized within that state so its dependent on that persons existence within that state. Neither states nor federal have the power to declare someone a citizen since the process is defined in the 14th amendment itself.

What I am saying is that this is a case where neither state nor federal has the power to decide someone's citizenship status since that process is defined in the constitution itself. Whenever the issue of someone's citizenship status is up for grabs the courts decide if that person has been naturalized within that state as stated in the 14th amendment.
nah, 'fails... fumble! you love the constitution which is great, but you struggle with the thing so often.

the 14th conveys state citizenship by virtue of 1/ fed citizenship and 2/ state residence, not the other way around. states can convey citizenship where an individual wasnt a US citizen, and this has no bearing on national citizenship, whatsoever.
In either case the 14th amendment, which was passed by congress, declares how someone is to obtain citizenship. A federal or state government can't pass a law that is out of bounds of the 14th amendment. For example: What if the federal government declared that a person can not be declared a citizen even if they were born here? That would violate the 14th amendment so that amendment is supreme to any federal law. Also, the enumeration of congressional powers does not state (to the best of my knowledge) any power that can decide someone's citizenship status. It does not have the power to pass immigration reform. Only the courts can decide if a person meets the requirments of the 14th amendment.

The only reason I make this argument is that I don't like it when the government passes immigration reform because its an attempt to water down the vote from people already living here which is why the courts should decide if someone is a citizen.
 
Last edited:
OP
ihopehefails

ihopehefails

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
3,384
Reaction score
228
Points
83
There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment. I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution.
:rolleyes:you guys are crazy. this whole citizenship thing is an enumerated power. shocking.
I could not find it. Please point that out.
 

Samson

Póg Mo Thóin
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
27,332
Reaction score
4,227
Points
245
Location
A Higher Plain
There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment. I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution.
:rolleyes:you guys are crazy. this whole citizenship thing is an enumerated power. shocking.
If the federal government declared that a person can not be declared a citizen even then they declared were born here. That would violate the 14th amendment so that amendment is supreme to any federal law. Also, the enumeration of congressional powers does not state any power that can decide someone's citizenship status. It does not have the power to pass immigration reform. Only the courts can decide if a person meets the requirments of the 14th amendment. In either case the 14th amendment, which was passed by congress, declares how someone is to obtain citizenship. A federal or state government can't pass a law that is out of bounds of the 14th amendment.
 

antagon

The Man
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
3,572
Reaction score
295
Points
48
No dumbshit. The 14th amendment declares that if a person is a citizen of a state then they are also a citizen of the federal government. The process is defined as someone naturalized within that state so its dependent on that persons existence within that state. Neither states nor federal have the power to declare someone a citizen since the process is defined in the 14th amendment itself.

What I am saying is that this is a case where neither state nor federal has the power to decide someone's citizenship status since that process is defined in the constitution itself. Whenever the issue of someone's citizenship status is up for grabs the courts decide if that person has been naturalized within that state as stated in the 14th amendment.
nah, 'fails... fumble! you love the constitution which is great, but you struggle with the thing so often.

the 14th conveys state citizenship by virtue of 1/ fed citizenship and 2/ state residence, not the other way around. states can convey citizenship where an individual wasnt a US citizen, and this has no bearing on national citizenship, whatsoever.
In either case the 14th amendment, which was passed by congress, declares how someone is to obtain citizenship. A federal or state government can't pass a law that is out of bounds of the 14th amendment. For example: What if the federal government declared that a person can not be declared a citizen even if they were born here? That would violate the 14th amendment so that amendment is supreme to any federal law. Also, the enumeration of congressional powers does not state (to the best of my knowledge) any power that can decide someone's citizenship status. It does not have the power to pass immigration reform. Only the courts can decide if a person meets the requirments of the 14th amendment.

The only reason I make this argument is that I don't like it when the government passes immigration reform because its an attempt to water down the vote from people already living here which is why the courts should decide if someone is a citizen.
just because it is in the constitution does not mean it cant be done. dont forget that they put the 14th amendment there in the first place. congress can act to repeal the 14th and replace it with something else. it is simply more cumbersome. the 14th, anyhow, is more a check on states' conforming to federal standards after the dred scott decision.

congress is directly enumerated a power to deal with naturalization. clause 4 of the enumerated powers (Art 1 Sect. 8).

immigration reform is more than playing with voters, despite the obvious kicker, depending on how it is reformed. at any rate, the constitution doesnt have your back on the issue, except through your vote.
 

antagon

The Man
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
3,572
Reaction score
295
Points
48
There is no power given to the federal government to do this...
:rolleyes:you guys are crazy....
If the federal government declared that a person can not be declared a citizen even then they declared were born here. That would violate the 14th amendment so that amendment is supreme to any federal law.
however, the government could amend the constitution. believe me, your example is not the direction that the government is looking to act on the issue.


Also, the enumeration of congressional powers does not state any power that can decide someone's citizenship status. It does not have the power to pass immigration reform.
:eek: :eusa_hand: :dig: :ack-1:

The Constitution of the United States of America 1:8.4 said:
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization...
Only the courts can decide if a person meets the requirments of the 14th amendment. In either case the 14th amendment, which was passed by congress, declares how someone is to obtain citizenship. A federal or state government can't pass a law that is out of bounds of the 14th amendment.
statutes establish immigration law. they are confined by the constitution. the constitution is about what rights are due to americans and the procedures/definitions/responsibilities of the government.
 

JenyEliza

Princess of Rhetoric
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
3,046
Reaction score
394
Points
48
Location
Atlanta, GA, USA
There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment. I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution.
:rolleyes:you guys are crazy. this whole citizenship thing is an enumerated power. shocking.
Generally speaking, the majority of posters here at USMB struggle with the concept of *enumerated powers"~~and which powers belong to whom.

Another good example would be the healthcare debate and the associated fine for failing to obtain healthcare coverage.

Levying this fine to individual citizens of the United States is not an enumerated power reserved to the Federal Government, therefore it belongs with the state. This has proven to be a *hugely* difficult concept for our members accept.
 
Last edited:

antagon

The Man
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
3,572
Reaction score
295
Points
48
There is no power given to the federal government to do this and it seems to me that citizenship is a kind of constitutional no man's land where neither the congress, judciary, or even the state governments can create legislation making someone a citizen simply because it is defined in the 14th amendment. I wonder if congress even has the power to create citizens since the process is declared in the 14th amendment as a person naturalized. This is already defined in the constitution and the courts, by its procedures, determines if a person has been naturalized as stated in the constitution.
:rolleyes:you guys are crazy. this whole citizenship thing is an enumerated power. shocking.
Generally speaking, the majority of posters here at USMB struggle with the concept of *enumerated powers"~~and which powers belong to whom.

Another good example would be the healthcare debate and the associated fine for failing to obtain healthcare coverage.

Levying this fine to individual citizens of the United States is not an enumerated power reserved to the Federal Government, therefore it belongs with the state. This has proven to be a *hugely* difficult concept for our members accept.
that precipitates a commerce clause showdown, actually. hugely difficult.:doubt:
 

New Topics

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top