Zone1 Does Paul receive enough credit in Christianity?

[alang1216]

Paul would vomit at today's "Christianity"

Maybe but I think more likely Jesus would vomit at today's "Christianity". The religion of Jesus became the religion about Jesus.

 

[alang1216]

Seems like that question was answered by Jesus himself, he began his ministry ministering to only Jews. It was only after they rejected his teaching that he began ministering to the Gentiles. He even told a parable about it; the parable of the wedding feast. Matthew 22:1-14

It wasn't so obvious to his Apostles and they knew him best.

 

[alang1216]

How did those views differ from the views of Jesus?

I don't know that Jesus weighed in on the matter. It certainly wasn't considered an answered question by all of his followers.

 

[Meriweather]

I invite you to make a quick Google search for yourself.

It might be better if you would select a specific disagreement. A "quick search" for me resulted in, "Paul disagreed with himself." It is what happens when one is clarifying a minute point.

 

[irosie91]

He did not risk his life, he gave his life and was murdered himself for a cause he previously tried to oppress and murdered others for, marking one of the most amazing conversions in human history.

But this is part of why he was chosen. Those who are forgiven much tends to love God that much more, causing him to be more devoted than the average follower of Christ. And he had the background and Jewish education that made him very articulate and able to write most of the NT.

And lastly, it was good for the apostles to come face to face with learning true forgiveness for a man who had once sought to take their very lives.

He did not risk his life, he gave his life and was murdered himself for a cause he previously tried to oppress and murdered others for, marking one of the most amazing conversions in human history.

But this is part of why he was chosen. Those who are forgiven much tends to love God that much more, causing him to be more devoted than the average follower of Christ. And he had the background and Jewish education that made him very articulate and able to write most of the NT.

And lastly, it was good for the apostles to come face to face with learning true forgiveness for a man who had once sought to take their very lives.

whom did Paul KILL----and by what means? His putative letters are cited---he must have written SOMETHING about the many he MURDERED?

 

[beautress]

I see Paul as the usurper, myself.


He was Saul, persecuting Jesus' followers then Jesus died and all of a sudden, Paul was controlling a whole new movement.

Controlling? Controlling? <ahem> It's a little hard to usurp others from a jail cell, my dearest Dogmaphobe. As the Apostle Paul, he spent a lot of time there for praising God through Christ Jesus, his Master who stopped him in his tracks on the road to Demascus with the question, (according to Acts by way of the ninth chapter), which says: "As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied."

After that he was a jail bird a lot. Go figure.

 

[ding]

It wasn't so obvious to his Apostles and they knew him best.

If you are saying the answer to the question of who is Jesus wasn't obvious to his Apostles, that is correct. The question of "who is Jesus" is in all four gospels (if I am remembering correctly), but it was especially central to the gospel of Mark which was written from the point of view that the reader is told who Jesus is at the beginning but throughout the gospel the apostles don't know who Jesus is and the question was THE theme in that Gospel. The other gospels were written differently for different intents.

But I'm not so sure that that means Paul disagreed or contradicted Jesus... at least knowingly and overtly. I honestly don't know what all the fuss about Paul is about.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Controlling? Controlling? <ahem> It's a little hard to usurp others from a jail cell, my dearest Dogmaphobe. As the Apostle Paul, he spent a lot of time there for praising God through Christ Jesus, his Master who stopped him in his tracks on the road to Demascus with the question, (according to Acts by way of the ninth chapter), which says: "As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied."

After that he was a jail bird a lot. Go figure.

Yes, this is the story Paul told.

 

[ding]

Maybe but I think more likely Jesus would vomit at today's "Christianity". The religion of Jesus became the religion about Jesus.

First of all I suspect you really mean Christians instead of Christianity. There seems to be a pervasive error in people distinguishing between God and religion and religion and adherents. Many people blame God for the ills of religion and blame religion for the ills of adherents. It's not an objective way of existing. It's always better to drain the dirty bathwater and keep the baby rather than throwing the baby out.

But putting that aside, I've heard your claim before said by others but I'm having a hard time reconciling that with the good news he brought. He didn't come for the "healthy." He came for the "sick."

 

[ding]

I don't know that Jesus weighed in on the matter. It certainly wasn't considered an answered question by all of his followers.

Why would he? I don't believe there was a contradiction and if there were it would have been after he ascended and left it in their hands.

 

[ding]

There is a difference. The bible is a definitive record of what Jesus said, and what Paul said. In he same book, you can compare the remarks of both, and see the disagreement in the teachings of both. Of course, this is assuming you still believe the Bible to be a credible record of what they both said. Here are a few to get you started. Paul says The earth Will be freed from its bondage to Decay. Jesus says it will be destroyed. Jesus said the law can be summed up in two Commandments, Paul said the law can be summed up in one commandment. is it summed up in one or two, it can’t be both. Read Matthew, then Romans. Read Luke followed quickly by first and second Timothy. Start writing down the contradictions

Can you specify the passages you looked at to arrive at these conclusions? Or are you regurgitating talking points by others that you yourself have never studied?

 

[BULLDOG]

Been there, done th

It might be better if you would select a specific disagreement. A "quick search" for me resulted in, "Paul disagreed with himself." It is what happens when one is clarifying a minute point.

Been there, done that with ding. That's why I see no need to make the same effort for him this time. Plenty of side by side scripture comparisons available if you are interested, just not my job to continuously repeat them.

 

[Meriweather]

Been there, done that with ding. That's why I see no need to make the same effort for him this time. Plenty of side by side scripture comparisons available if you are interested, just not my job to continuously repeat them.

I was wondering which one interested you most.

 

[alang1216]

If you are saying the answer to the question of who is Jesus wasn't obvious to his Apostles, that is correct. The question of "who is Jesus" is in all four gospels (if I am remembering correctly), but it was especially central to the gospel of Mark which was written from the point of view that the reader is told who Jesus is at the beginning but throughout the gospel the apostles don't know who Jesus is and the question was THE theme in that Gospel. The other gospels were written differently for different intents.

I don't disagree, but Jesus left very little, if any, writings. Did Jesus expect his pagan followers to be circumcised and follow the other Jewish laws? I don't recall anything in the Gospels about it but I think the debate raged in Acts and the letters of Paul.

But I'm not so sure that that means Paul disagreed or contradicted Jesus... at least knowingly and overtly. I honestly don't know what all the fuss about Paul is about.

Again I agree. I just think Paul is more important to the Christianity of today than any other figure, possibly even Jesus himself.

 

[Vastator]

And there you have it. The reason I left the modern "Church"..

 

[alang1216]

First of all I suspect you really mean Christians instead of Christianity. There seems to be a pervasive error in people distinguishing between God and religion and religion and adherents. Many people blame God for the ills of religion and blame religion for the ills of adherents. It's not an objective way of existing. It's always better to drain the dirty bathwater and keep the baby rather than throwing the baby out.

Jesus lived and died as a devout Jew. The fact that Christians appropriated his scripture, changed the laws he lived under, and, ironically, developed a deep anti-Semitism at the same time would be shocking to him, I think.

 

[surada]

I see Paul as the usurper, myself.


He was Saul, persecuting Jesus' followers then Jesus died and all of a sudden, Paul was controlling a whole new movement.

Opportunist?

 

[alang1216]

How did those views differ from the views of Jesus?

Hard to answer. We know little of the views of Jesus but way more than Paul did.

 

[JustAGuy1]

It happened a lot. You won't take my word for it, so google Jesus and Paul disagreements.

It all comes down to the same thing, your disposition is one of disbelief so you gravitate towards anything that you think may help disprove the Word of God. I don't really care about unbelievers pitting themselves against God and the Bible, their thought processes are not in tune with God's. Paul was a great man of God.

 

[ding]

Hard to answer. We know little of the views of Jesus but way more than Paul did.

I disagree. Why do you believe we know little about the views of Jesus and why do you believe we know way more than Paul did? We know a great deal about what Jesus taught and typically people who are closer in time to an event know the event better than people who are farther away in time from the event.