Did Pakistan soldiers shoot at US helicopters?

[CrimsonWhite]

I am simply stating that the entire basis of your argument is intelligence from an Administration and intelligence community that has shown gross negligence in presenting the American public with the truth in the past 8 years. I am not saying all Republicans are evil and liars, I am saying that the Bush Administration has a history of lying to the American public. If you have a problem with the facts, then I apologize.

As I said before, and as you conveniently ignored, I have a hard time believing that anyone that is currently in Pakistan now presents the United States with a national security risk. How easy can it be to operate a terrorist organization in a region that is swarming with American military personnel (I guarantee you our Special Forces are operating regularly in the area)? As much as you might not want to believe it, they are smarter then that. But if people continue to be ignorant enough to believe that region of Pakistan is a our biggest worry right now, I guess the terrorists are doing a pretty good job or throwing us off their trail.

I agree, you are completely correct. They are probably not there right now, but do we know that for sure? Also, have we ever truly trusted our intelligence community? Kinda hard to trust poeple who lie for living. Have you ever actually trusted the Bush Adminstration. Have you considered the possibity that the WMD's that were possibly in Iraq were moved prior to the very public build up to invasion. Though it is convenient to ignore these questions, can we agree that this completely unruled and lawless region of Pakistan is perfect staging area for the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Or we could just pack it all up and come home. Have some Bar-b-que and wait for the next building to blow up.

 

[I Missthe North]

I agree, you are completely correct. They are probably not there right now, but do we know that for sure? Also, have we ever truly trusted our intelligence community? Kinda hard to trust poeple who lie for living. Have you ever actually trusted the Bush Adminstration. Have you considered the possibity that the WMD's that were possibly in Iraq were moved prior to the very public build up to invasion. Though it is convenient to ignore these questions, can we agree that this completely unruled and lawless region of Pakistan is perfect staging area for the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Or we could just pack it all up and come home. Have some Bar-b-que and wait for the next building to blow up.

I do not disagree with you on any of those point, and yes, I have thought that it was possible that the WMD's were moved before the US arrived, but I still believe there would have been SOME trace of them left in the country. Saddam Hussein was not a dumb man, but he was not incredibly smart either. All I am saying is that I think it is time to take a different approach to the War on Terrorism. Our current one is obviously not having the success that we all want it to and it is driving more Muslims to extremism and driving more countries away from us. There have got to be other ways to deal with the problem of terrorism, and all I am saying is it is about time to find them, cause our current ones are not working.

 

[editec]

So the myth that Pakistan is our ally is coming unraveled, eh?

They're waiting for the USA to bankrupt itself because they know we'll have to leave when that happens.

In the meanwhile, they'll continue this passive-aggressive game of saying one thing and doing another.

They know that Alqada is in their country and using their land from which to launch stikes in Afghanistan and probably Iraq, too, and they don't care.

They'll give lipservice to fighting terrorism, but basically they aren't afraid of terrorists because the terrorist are not yet trying to topple their military dictatorship.

Everything the neo-cons have been telling us is a lie. Everything those notwits has done has turned to blood and debt.

Damned fools have been running this nation for 8 years, now, and they're broken it.

Nice work Bushites. You have been the most incompetent government in this nation's history.

Stupid idealogues and the even stupider people who supported them need a good asskicking..

 

[Jeepers]

I am simply stating that the entire basis of your argument is intelligence from an Administration and intelligence community that has shown gross negligence in presenting the American public with the truth in the past 8 years. I am not saying all Republicans are evil and liars, I am saying that the Bush Administration has a history of lying to the American public. If you have a problem with the facts, then I apologize.

As I said before, and as you conveniently ignored, I have a hard time believing that anyone that is currently in Pakistan now presents the United States with a national security risk. How easy can it be to operate a terrorist organization in a region that is swarming with American military personnel (I guarantee you our Special Forces are operating regularly in the area)? As much as you might not want to believe it, they are smarter then that. But if people continue to be ignorant enough to believe that region of Pakistan is a our biggest worry right now, I guess the terrorists are doing a pretty good job or throwing us off their trail.

Dont throw out good inteligence with the bathwater... Pakistan has been a dangerous country for decades now... they have Nukes and theyve been at near war with India since like 1850... poverty and factionalism with a strong conservative muslim contingent have left this country as a political wasteland absent on any type of rationality... though many moderates did rise under bhutto and mushareffs reign (till recently)... Just look at recent history.. from sharia rule to the first woman leader to a military coup, to emperor, to elections... this country is all over the place politically... basically this confusion has empowered warlord rule outside the city... generally conservative the taliban and alqaeda contigents are allowed to thrive... Eh thats a summary but you should be worried about this country... muslim extremists have functional nukes within reach.. they will not think twice about taking out our troops, israel, india, or anyone else within reach....

 

[I Missthe North]

Dont throw out good inteligence with the bathwater... Pakistan has been a dangerous country for decades now... they have Nukes and theyve been at near war with India since like 1850... poverty and factionalism with a strong conservative muslim contingent have left this country as a political wasteland absent on any type of rationality... though many moderates did rise under bhutto and mushareffs reign (till recently)... Just look at recent history.. from sharia rule to the first woman leader to a military coup, to emperor, to elections... this country is all over the place politically... basically this confusion has empowered warlord rule outside the city... generally conservative the taliban and alqaeda contigents are allowed to thrive... Eh thats a summary but you should be worried about this country... muslim extremists have functional nukes within reach.. they will not think twice about taking out our troops, israel, india, or anyone else within reach....

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the Taliban and Al Quaeda in Pakistan not being a serious threat to the United States at this point. You are right about Pakistan being unstable, but I don't think they are anywhere near being insane enough to go to war with the United States, let alone use nukes against us (I don't think anyone is that stupid these days, they just like to have the threat on hand). Not saying Pakistan are our best friends or anything, but that doesn't mean we have the right to infringe on their borders. We are never going to get rid of the Taliban or Al Quaeda completely in the middle east by using force. It is impossible to a eradicate a group with no central structure and a belief system as strong as theirs. We need a new strategy.

 

[Jeepers]

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the Taliban and Al Quaeda in Pakistan not being a serious threat to the United States at this point. You are right about Pakistan being unstable, but I don't think they are anywhere near being insane enough to go to war with the United States, let alone use nukes against us (I don't think anyone is that stupid these days, they just like to have the threat on hand). Not saying Pakistan are our best friends or anything, but that doesn't mean we have the right to infringe on their borders. We are never going to get rid of the Taliban or Al Quaeda completely in the middle east by using force. It is impossible to a eradicate a group with no central structure and a belief system as strong as theirs. We need a new strategy.

I hope your right... there might be a flaw to your reasoning though... Your assuming that Pakistan would attack us directly... They wouldnt have too.. With a well placed nuke in the hands of radicals that any new government might be sympathetic too, well... you get the point... I seriously doubt that they would actually like to attack us anyway... they might however be ambivalent to any attack that might take place. Even if they upped the anti in the measure of the attack..i.e. New clear...

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I do not disagree with you on any of those point, and yes, I have thought that it was possible that the WMD's were moved before the US arrived, but I still believe there would have been SOME trace of them left in the country. Saddam Hussein was not a dumb man, but he was not incredibly smart either. All I am saying is that I think it is time to take a different approach to the War on Terrorism. Our current one is obviously not having the success that we all want it to and it is driving more Muslims to extremism and driving more countries away from us. There have got to be other ways to deal with the problem of terrorism, and all I am saying is it is about time to find them, cause our current ones are not working.

See, I see our current policy working as it was intended to. It is and has always been a band aid. It keeps terrorism abroad, which it has done. Do we need a change in direction? Absolutely, but even the experts don't have solution to terror. Ask the French what should be done. After all, Robespierre created modern terror. Maybe they have some insight.

 

[editec]

If the USA and Isreal weren't involved in the internacine power struggles in Islamic Asia, those people would be killing each other just as they'd been doing all along.

But there is nothing that's likely to end a family squabble as fast as a stranger who gets involved.

Leave the Islamic world to solve it's own problems and we all better off.

They have the oil, you say?

So what?

Whoever has it will sell it.

 

[strollingbones]

how much foreign aid is pakistan getting? military spending etc? Pakistan is playing both sides of the fences. We cannot ask your soldiers to not purse those trying to kill them? This is not a un mission.

 

[Larkinn]

Then we go to war with Pakistan for harboring terrorists. Nukes or no.

Thats retarded. Whatever "clear and present danger" Islamic militants in Pakistan are, they are NOTHING compared to war with Pakistan.

Oh, and border raids into Pakistan just destabilizes the government. Bitch and moan all you want about how Pakistan isn't controlling the militants, but if those militants gain control of Pakistan because they become destabilized and radicalized (as tends to happen when other countries bomb/invade your country) you can kiss your ass goodbye, because are all going up in smoke.

 

[DiveCon]

After we asked them cease and desist numerous times? I doubt it, and that is exactly what happened in Pakistan.

if there were terrorists in the rocky mountains attacking Canada, WE would take them out ourselves

 

[DiveCon]

I never said imminent threat, I said clear and present danger. There is a difference and both are legitimate reasons fro action. Intelligence has been saying for years the the mastermind of 9/11 is in this region. You don't consider that reason enough to go in? "Justice for all." perhaps?

um, the mastermind of 9/11 is in gitmo

KSM

 

[CrimsonWhite]

um, the mastermind of 9/11 is in gitmo

KSM

I didn't realize Bin Laden had been captured, when did that happen? Perhaps I should have said financier?

 

[DiveCon]

I didn't realize Bin Laden had been captured, when did that happen? Perhaps I should have said financier?

thats because Bin Laden wasnt the mastermind behind it
Kaled Sheik Muhammad(KSM) was
and he was captured

 

[CrimsonWhite]

thats because Bin Laden wasnt the mastermind behind it
Kaled Sheik Muhammad(KSM) was
and he was captured

Like I said, guess I should have said "financier"? Either way, the public face( or voice) is still at large. The was the point.