Debt is Pushing the US Into Fascism

[georgephillip]

People who tell you 'debt' is driving us towards socialism aren't addressing the reality of what is going on. Americans are being divided. T

Americans are being divided in exactly the same way that humanity has been split over the last few thousand years between creditors and debtors. Western societies have been painting themselves into a debt corner by their creditor-oriented structure of laws. Anti-government (anti-democratic) ideology has centralized social planning and state power in the "free" market, i.e., Wall Street and other financial centers.

The Big Question then becomes who will lose when employment and business activity are disrupted by a once-a-century pandemic, creditors and landlords at the top of the economic pyramid (scheme) or debtors and renters at the bottom?

Which side is Trump on?

 

[georgephillip]

Relentless work ethic.
12-hour days, 7 days a week.
Staying until 3 AM to get products shipped to customers.

Have you done that? Which of the hourly employees at Amazon is putting in that level of dedication? None?

Which hourly employees at Amazon received a $300,000 loan from their parents?

 

[georgephillip]

Many farm workers toil that many hours every week without ever having a chance of owning the farm someday.

What does that have to do with Bezo? Unless you are saying those warehouse workers at Amazon are farmers...... or something? What exactly you babbling about?

Farm workers toil under conditions that would kill a parasite like Bezos. They often work from sunup to sundown with a single 30 minute lunch break, and their pay levels can fall below legal minimum rates. Many have no reasonable expectation of improving their conditions particularly as long as rich, privileged capitalists like Bezos are venerated by unthinking rubes for their greed.

 

[georgephillip]

Microsoft wants to keep the money that Microsoft rightfully earned.

You want to keep your money, that you rightfully earned.

You would do the exact same thing as Microsoft.

No, I would not do the exact same thing as Microsoft, and I suspect you are also clueless about what Microsoft has done to avoid paying its fair share of taxes:

The sordid tale of Microsoft’s epic tax evasion and the war they waged against the IRS

"Microsoft maintains the fiction that it has sold its most valuable copyrights and other intangible assets to a tiny factory in Puerto Rico, where, thanks to promising to hire a mere 85 workers, it pays effective zero tax; the company transfers almost all its profits to this factory to 'license' its own crown jewels, making the company totally unprofitable on paper, and thus immune from taxation."

 

[georgephillip]

So Davis wasn't an ACTIVE communist. He was still a communist....and he tutored Barry.

Democrats are the party of Jim Crowe...the KKK, segregation, policies of economic slavery....

Why do you have a knee-jerk tendency to support white supremacy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...frank-marshall-davis-obamas-communist-mentor/

"Davis never identifies himself as a Communist Party member in 'Livin’ the Blues.'

"But he describes working with members, as long as they helped him achieve his goals.

"He had memberships, endorsements or affiliations with more than a dozen leftist groups, including the Chicago Civil Liberties Committee, CIO unions and the National Committee to Combat Anti-Semitism.

"'I worked with all kinds of groups,' Davis wrote, 'I made no distinction between those labeled Communist, Socialist or merely liberal. My sole criterion was this: Are you with me in my determination to wipe out white supremacy? Because I had some smattering of prestige as a writer and wielded some influence as an opinion maker in the black press at large, my active participation was welcomed.'"

 

[Andylusion]

Relentless work ethic.
12-hour days, 7 days a week.
Staying until 3 AM to get products shipped to customers.

Have you done that? Which of the hourly employees at Amazon is putting in that level of dedication? None?

Which hourly employees at Amazon received a $300,000 loan from their parents?

I will answer that, but a couple of things first.

Just to clarify, the wiki article or where you got that from, was wrong.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/how-jeff-bezos-got-his-parents-to-invest-in-amazon--turning-them-into.html

It was not like little Timmy got $300,000 from mommy and daddy. To clarify, it wasn't $300,000, it was a little less than $250,000. And it wasn't a loan.

Bezos pitched the idea of the company, to a group of 60 potential investors. His mother, and step-father were part of that group, and he actually tried to talk them out of investing

​

From the article:​

He told them, “I want to come home at dinner for Thanksgiving and I don’t want you to be mad at me.”​

Because there was a very good chance the company could fail, like many companies in the late 90s failed, and they could have lost everything.

Point being, 20 total investors agree to invest into Bezos company pitch. If Bezos parents had not invested... there were at least 18 other people that did, and Amazon would likely still exist today.

Further, I don't even have a problem with parents helping out their children. If you got ANYTHING form your parents, you had an 'unfair' advantage. I don't see you complaining about how unfair it was for you to have an advantage over others. Yet you did.

So in the end, this is just you making up arbitrary rules for what is fair or unfair for parents to do for their kids.

My church renovated an orphanage in Malawi Africa. 50+ kids, zero parents. None. They lived in complete and total object poverty. To them, you are the one with the unfair advantage.

Basically your view of what is fair or unfair, is simply who got more help from their parents, than you did. Well to them in Malawi, you are the one who got unfair help from their parents.

So this is just you being envious of others, and you need to stop being evil.

So back to the question you asked at the start.....

Which hourly employees at Amazon received a $300,000 loan from their parents?

Which employee was top of his class, and valedictorian?
Which employee already proved themselves successful with a high paying job in NYC?
Which employee proved they were dictated to the cause by quitting that job and moving to Seattle?
Which employee came up with a good idea for a new company?
Which employee worked out of his garage on a desk made by sawed off 2X4s with a wooden door on top of it?
Which employee pitched his idea to a group of 60 investors, and successfully convinced 18 others, of investing in the company?
Which employees parents, had worked hard their whole life, and had the $250,000 to invest?

There's your answer. If your parents are lazy, and don't work hard, or if they blow all their money... yeah, they can't invest in your company.

If you never come up with a business, then you certainly can't pitch that business to investors, can you?

If you never pitch the business to investors, then they certainly won't invest in it, will they?

And if you haven't proven yourself to be capable, like say being valedictorian, or already having worked a high paying job in NYC, then people are not likely to trust you with the investment.

There is only one person at Amazon, that I am aware of, that checks all those boxes. Jeff Bezos.

 

[Andylusion]

So Davis wasn't an ACTIVE communist. He was still a communist....and he tutored Barry.

Democrats are the party of Jim Crowe...the KKK, segregation, policies of economic slavery....

Why do you have a knee-jerk tendency to support white supremacy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...frank-marshall-davis-obamas-communist-mentor/

"Davis never identifies himself as a Communist Party member in 'Livin’ the Blues.'

"But he describes working with members, as long as they helped him achieve his goals.

"He had memberships, endorsements or affiliations with more than a dozen leftist groups, including the Chicago Civil Liberties Committee, CIO unions and the National Committee to Combat Anti-Semitism.

"'I worked with all kinds of groups,' Davis wrote, 'I made no distinction between those labeled Communist, Socialist or merely liberal. My sole criterion was this: Are you with me in my determination to wipe out white supremacy? Because I had some smattering of prestige as a writer and wielded some influence as an opinion maker in the black press at large, my active participation was welcomed.'"

Yeah, because that's dumb. You can't wipe out white supremacy. Be honest, did he do it? No. So what did he do that was of any value? Nothing. He wasted his entire life, and accomplished absolutely nothing.

Yes, or no: Is white supremacy wiped out? No. So he was a worthless failure.

What he did do, was promote socialist values, which have destroyed every nation that has ever tried them.

Moving on.

 

[Andylusion]

Microsoft wants to keep the money that Microsoft rightfully earned.

You want to keep your money, that you rightfully earned.

You would do the exact same thing as Microsoft.

No, I would not do the exact same thing as Microsoft, and I suspect you are also clueless about what Microsoft has done to avoid paying its fair share of taxes:

The sordid tale of Microsoft’s epic tax evasion and the war they waged against the IRS

"Microsoft maintains the fiction that it has sold its most valuable copyrights and other intangible assets to a tiny factory in Puerto Rico, where, thanks to promising to hire a mere 85 workers, it pays effective zero tax; the company transfers almost all its profits to this factory to 'license' its own crown jewels, making the company totally unprofitable on paper, and thus immune from taxation."

Yes, I am fully aware that most companies do that.

By the way, it's not tax evasion. It's tax avoidance, and perfectly legally.

And, you would do the same thing. You are just lying if you deny that. You are just flat out lying.

Yes you would. All left-wingers would. You do realize that most of the super high tech companies in the world, are all run by left-wingers? And they avoid taxes. Like *ALL PEOPLE DO*.

By the way, there is no denying that Microsoft, and all companies, reduce their taxes as much as possible, including using the method that you outlined above. I actually posted a massive explanation of how that works, in more detail myself, some years ago.

However, when morons say things like "making the company totally unprofitable on paper, and thus immune from taxation" That's when you drift from fact to opinion.

FY20 Q4 - Press Releases - Investor Relations - Microsoft

www.microsoft.com

It's baffling to me, that people like you, or I should say people like the writers who made that link you posted.... can say such obviously false statements, and never think anyone will fact check them, which it is so easy to do.

Public companies have to file reports with the SEC... you can read those reports.

Unfortunately the link above, doesn't have a page numbers.... but if you go down to Income Statements, you will find that in the twelve months before June... Microsoft paid a more than $8.7 Billion dollars in taxes.

Now, if you want to say Microsoft reduces their taxes using that method above... yeah of course. I would too. So would you. So would everyone.

But to say "immune from taxation" when they are paying billions on billions on billions in taxes every years.... and we can EASILY prove that by looking up their SEC filings?

You realize how easy it was to find this out? Google "Microsoft Investor relations". First page that popped up, click "View Details". Control+F for find. Type in "tax". Found "Provision for income Taxes" Boom.... $8.7 Billion in tax payments.

Entire link you provided.... burnt to ash. "immune from taxation" whatever.

 

[Andylusion]

Many farm workers toil that many hours every week without ever having a chance of owning the farm someday.

What does that have to do with Bezo? Unless you are saying those warehouse workers at Amazon are farmers...... or something? What exactly you babbling about?

Farm workers toil under conditions that would kill a parasite like Bezos. They often work from sunup to sundown with a single 30 minute lunch break, and their pay levels can fall below legal minimum rates. Many have no reasonable expectation of improving their conditions particularly as long as rich, privileged capitalists like Bezos are venerated by unthinking rubes for their greed.

Yeah, I'd like to see *YOU* working on a farm. And by the way, if you are living on Social Security right now, you really shouldn't be calling others parasites. That is literally what social security is, and Medicare too.

Many have no reasonable expectation of improving their conditions particularly as long as rich, privileged capitalists like Bezos are venerated by unthinking rubes for their greed.

So you have seen what happened in Venezuela when they kicked out the capitalists, right?

You said they have no reasonable expectation of improving their conditions as long as rich privileged capitalists blaw blaw blaw....

That implies that if you got rid of the rich privileged capitalists that they would have a reasonable expectation of the improving their lives.

That hasn't happened. The poor in Venezuela today, are worse off than they ever were when the capitalists were in the country.

 

[Andylusion]

People who tell you 'debt' is driving us towards socialism aren't addressing the reality of what is going on. Americans are being divided. T

Americans are being divided in exactly the same way that humanity has been split over the last few thousand years between creditors and debtors. Western societies have been painting themselves into a debt corner by their creditor-oriented structure of laws. Anti-government (anti-democratic) ideology has centralized social planning and state power in the "free" market, i.e., Wall Street and other financial centers.

The Big Question then becomes who will lose when employment and business activity are disrupted by a once-a-century pandemic, creditors and landlords at the top of the economic pyramid (scheme) or debtors and renters at the bottom?

Which side is Trump on?

The Big Question then becomes who will lose when employment and business activity are disrupted by a once-a-century pandemic, creditors and landlords at the top of the economic pyramid (scheme) or debtors and renters at the bottom?

Depends on if you have people in government, who believe they should shut down the economy over a sniffle.

If this was not an election year, or if there had been far fewer Democrats in office, I wager none of this would have happened.

The economy would never have shut down. People never have lost their jobs. We would have had maybe some quarantines of nursing homes, but otherwise nothing would have happened.

Don't be a debtor. Stop borrowing. Live within your means. If you don't have the money to buy something..... don't.

 

[georgephillip]

Americans better wake up very quickly and realize the massive division and violence is being orchestrated, pulling the strings of so-far blind puppet citizens who better recognize what is going on soon.

Who's providing the division and violence?

Analysis: Trump relishes his role as a divider as he vows to be 'vicious'

 

[georgephillip]

We have Crony Capitalism where the gov't picks and chooses the winners..........in essence it's FUEDALISM of the old age of Europe..............

Do as I say or I'll drive you and your family out and starve them to death.......

You speak with Forked tongue.

Crony capitalist?
Speaks with forked tongue??

MAGA?

 

[georgephillip]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

What do you know about sin and debt?

He died for our debt, not our sins | Michael Hudson

"'The Christianity we know today is not the Christianity of Jesus,' says Professor Hudson.

"Indeed the Judaism that we know today is not the Judaism of Jesus either.

"The economist told Renegade Inc the Lord’s Prayer, ‘forgive us our sins even as we forgive all who are indebted to us’, refers specifically to debt.

"'Most religious leaders say that Christianity is all about sin, not debt,' he says. 'But actually, the word for sin and debt is the same in almost every language.'"

 

[georgephillip]

Nope. Labor doesn't own any of the value created. The capitalist owns it.
He bought the equipment, raw materials and factory. All he owes labor is a wage.

What did his shareholders contribute?

Exploitation of labor, part 2

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

What do you know about sin and debt?

He died for our debt, not our sins | Michael Hudson

"'The Christianity we know today is not the Christianity of Jesus,' says Professor Hudson.

"Indeed the Judaism that we know today is not the Judaism of Jesus either.

"The economist told Renegade Inc the Lord’s Prayer, ‘forgive us our sins even as we forgive all who are indebted to us’, refers specifically to debt.

"'Most religious leaders say that Christianity is all about sin, not debt,' he says. 'But actually, the word for sin and debt is the same in almost every language.'"

"'The Christianity we know today is not the Christianity of Jesus,' says Professor Hudson.

The only thing Marxist economists understand better than economics is Christianity


'But actually, the word for sin and debt is the same in almost every language.'"

Marxists lie.........

 

[Andylusion]

Americans better wake up very quickly and realize the massive division and violence is being orchestrated, pulling the strings of so-far blind puppet citizens who better recognize what is going on soon.

Who's providing the division and violence?
View attachment 390712
Analysis: Trump relishes his role as a divider as he vows to be 'vicious'

I can't think of a single example of anything Trump said that was divisive.

Basically for the left-wing, anything that is divisive, is somehow portrayed as uniting.

And everything that is uniting, they call divisive.

For example, every time Trump says America is a force for good in the world... that should be a uniting statement. But the left claims it is divisive.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Nope. Labor doesn't own any of the value created. The capitalist owns it.
He bought the equipment, raw materials and factory. All he owes labor is a wage.

What did his shareholders contribute?

Exploitation of labor, part 2

What did his shareholders contribute?

They paid for the equipment, raw materials and factory that the workers need to earn their wages.

 

[initforme]

As long as we keep electing wealthy men to lead the nation, the gap between the average worker and the rich guy is going to grow regardless if party. But oh my one is not to talk about class division. I call bull on that.

 

[Andylusion]

Nope. Labor doesn't own any of the value created. The capitalist owns it.
He bought the equipment, raw materials and factory. All he owes labor is a wage.

What did his shareholders contribute?

Exploitation of labor, part 2

He just answered that question.

He bought the equipment, raw materials and factory. All he owes labor is a wage.

Without the person who invested the money, there is no building. No factory. No machines. No equipment.

The number of workers will be zero. There won't be any worker surplus, because there won't be any workers.

Again... it's not just a theory either. We've seen this. Every country that has chased out the evil capitalists, end up in ruins. Venezuela, all the investors left.

Did the workers gain all that 'surplus' value? No, instead they had zero.

Just like you, if you owned a broken car, and if you didn't gain the value from that car being repaired.... the mechanic wouldn't get that 'surplus value'. No, the mechanic would lose entirely. Because you would not bother to repair the car.

Just like if you owned a house, with a bad roof. If you were forced to give the surplus value that the roofers created by fixing the roof... you wouldn't do it. If you were forced to give them the surplus value, you would simply not do it. Instead of gaining their surplus value, you would simply not hire them at all, and they would earn zero.

That's how that works. Just like in Venezuela, if investors can't gain the value of the investment... they simply don't invest.

Then companies don't exist, jobs dont' exist, you stop producing cars, and no one replaces them.

Venezuela used to build, and export cars built in Venezuela. Now they don't. People are starving. No one has any jobs.

So you can post that graph, and all your talking points... but it doesn't match reality. Never has.

When France introduced a wealth tax, the rich packed up and started leaving. Trying confiscate so-called worker surplus, only results in there being no workers. That's how that works.

 

[initforme]

Ok that's all fine but then when people say it's bad to bring up class division that is not true. We are divided by class. What is wrong with saying it?