You be the judge
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
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Collateral Murder?
- Thread starter Dr Grump
- Start date
MuslimAgorist
Member
- Mar 13, 2010
- 130
- 15
- 16
Collateral Murder - WikiLeaks exposes classified military malfeasance said:For the people of Iraq the crimes of the American Military are a daily occurrence. Just Imagine. What attitude will these wounded children have toward America growing up? When they are teenagers, desperately trying to make sense of the chaos of their lives, how will the ability to witness the cold blooded murder of their own father affect them? When they are adults, and trying to chose between the fake Republic the American Empire gives them and the militant resistance their neighbors continue to fight what do you think they will chose? What would you chose?
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- May 20, 2009
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A reporter was killed! Stop the War!
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They were hanging with guys with AK-47's and either the pilot thought the telephoto lens was an RPG or there was a guy there with an RPG.
- May 20, 2009
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US soldiers killed by IED's and we don't get 1 minute of video of their last moments, but as soon as a reporter is killed....
MuslimAgorist
Member
- Mar 13, 2010
- 130
- 15
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They were hanging with guys with AK-47's and either the pilot thought the telephoto lens was an RPG or there was a guy there with an RPG.
After the fact one AK-47 and no RPG was found. The Military released a statement saying that soldiers confused a long range photo lens for an RPG. Carrying an AK-47 is not unusual for normal civilians in Iraq, who are also trying to protect themselves and their families from militants.
US soldiers killed by IED's and we don't get 1 minute of video of their last moments, but as soon as a reporter is killed....
We are not seeing this video because of a selective coverage. We are seeing this video because it was leaked by a Military whistle blower. So it is someone in the Military who decided this was important to get out. Had video been leaked of US soldiers being killed, I'm sure WikiLeaks would have published it, although I doubt it would have gone viral like this has. Viral news is not created by Media bias. It is passed hand to hand by individuals in a free market of ideas. If it is the result of bias, it is the bias of the public.
But I do regard the death of a civilian to be a greater tragedy than the death of a soldier. This is because the soldier has the means to defend himself, while the civilian does not, and because the soldier has voluntarily put himself in danger, while the civilian is aggressed against.
I have a thought experiment for those who worship the military. There's really no wrong answer, but if you can't answer I hope you will at least contemplate it privately. Its intention is for you to learn something about yourself, not that I learn something about you.
If I gave you two buttons and you had to push one, one button that killed a random American and one that killed some number of random foreigners, how many foreigners would it need to be before you'd kill the American?
Anonymous1
Rookie
- Apr 23, 2010
- 1
- 0
- 1
I have watched the video, which is untrue of many people hearing of this story. I went over a certain segment of it, just to be sure, and I do believe that I saw an RPG before any shots were fired. And yes I checked, it was not one of the camera men carrying the assumed weapon.
Now when it comes to the war I believe there are valid points on both sides of the issue, and I'm not for one or the other. When I watched this video, and while thinking about it afterward, I didn't think of the political side of things; I just tried to put myself in the place of the soldier who took the shot, the man making that decision, and also the victims of this attack.
I think that if you were in the gunner seat of that helicopter and you saw an RPG you'd be antsy to remove such a threat before it could become a deadly situation. I can see myself coming around the corner of that building, terrified that the utilizer of such a weapon is already lining up the shot to end my life. Think of what the individual is thinking before you tell me that his life is less important than the life of those men. Even worse, would you say such a thing to him?
Now the brass granting permission to fire. They were not on the scene so they were obviously not as eager to fire as the gunner; but would you wait longer than you had to if the lives of men who trust in your decision, could be in danger? Military leaders have to make extremely tough decisions every day, and I don't think it's our place to judge whether they should or shouldn't have made the choices they did.
Lastly I thought about what the victims of this attack were going through. Now I'm not trying to belittle the value of these men's lives, and I felt a sickening sorrow for the loss. But these reporters did know the risk of entering a battle area. Cameras will attract crowds, and crowds will become a target.
I don't think there is any way to argue the decision, the driver of the van made. At first I thought how foolish he must have been to put the children in the van at risk to save that wounded man. But after much thought I wondered if I would be able to just sit there and not help someone in such a situation.
To finish my thoughts I'd like to explain that I am nineteen years of age. I admit to being an avid video game player, but that is not why I watched this video. I am also a Christian, and a very religious person, and I believe that all life has great and profound value that shouldn't be taken lightly. Overall I don't think this video is definitive enough to make the decision that we should end the war. There are many conflicts like this though and any loss of life is a terrible thing.
War is never black and white, but the war in the middle east is probably the most gray that we have ever seen. The best we can do is mourn the casualties and thank God for the survivors; no matter what side, if either, that they belong to.
Now when it comes to the war I believe there are valid points on both sides of the issue, and I'm not for one or the other. When I watched this video, and while thinking about it afterward, I didn't think of the political side of things; I just tried to put myself in the place of the soldier who took the shot, the man making that decision, and also the victims of this attack.
I think that if you were in the gunner seat of that helicopter and you saw an RPG you'd be antsy to remove such a threat before it could become a deadly situation. I can see myself coming around the corner of that building, terrified that the utilizer of such a weapon is already lining up the shot to end my life. Think of what the individual is thinking before you tell me that his life is less important than the life of those men. Even worse, would you say such a thing to him?
Now the brass granting permission to fire. They were not on the scene so they were obviously not as eager to fire as the gunner; but would you wait longer than you had to if the lives of men who trust in your decision, could be in danger? Military leaders have to make extremely tough decisions every day, and I don't think it's our place to judge whether they should or shouldn't have made the choices they did.
Lastly I thought about what the victims of this attack were going through. Now I'm not trying to belittle the value of these men's lives, and I felt a sickening sorrow for the loss. But these reporters did know the risk of entering a battle area. Cameras will attract crowds, and crowds will become a target.
I don't think there is any way to argue the decision, the driver of the van made. At first I thought how foolish he must have been to put the children in the van at risk to save that wounded man. But after much thought I wondered if I would be able to just sit there and not help someone in such a situation.
To finish my thoughts I'd like to explain that I am nineteen years of age. I admit to being an avid video game player, but that is not why I watched this video. I am also a Christian, and a very religious person, and I believe that all life has great and profound value that shouldn't be taken lightly. Overall I don't think this video is definitive enough to make the decision that we should end the war. There are many conflicts like this though and any loss of life is a terrible thing.
War is never black and white, but the war in the middle east is probably the most gray that we have ever seen. The best we can do is mourn the casualties and thank God for the survivors; no matter what side, if either, that they belong to.
We can we expect from young men trained by years of TV and movies to think watching people getting killed is neat?
Of the young men of my sons acquaintance who are enlisting, one is honest enough to admit that his goal is to go to Iraq so that he can kill people.
Yeah, that's right, and the steady pay and bennies don't hurt, either.
When you're a poor White boy from someplace like Maine, where intergenerational poverty is a way of life, the military sounds like a pretty sweet deal.
You get to work out your teen angst by killing people AND make something approaching a real living wage at the same time, too.
Sad, isn't it?
Of the young men of my sons acquaintance who are enlisting, one is honest enough to admit that his goal is to go to Iraq so that he can kill people.
Yeah, that's right, and the steady pay and bennies don't hurt, either.
When you're a poor White boy from someplace like Maine, where intergenerational poverty is a way of life, the military sounds like a pretty sweet deal.
You get to work out your teen angst by killing people AND make something approaching a real living wage at the same time, too.
Sad, isn't it?
Yes and the 15-6 was found and posted and there was an AK and 2 RPGs found.
The bad guys died and the dumb ass reporters with them are casualties of war.
End of story.
The bad guys died and the dumb ass reporters with them are casualties of war.
End of story.
You wouldn't be related to them there Hatfields would you ?
Toome
Active Member
- Feb 19, 2009
- 906
- 260
- 28
Several misleading aspects to the Wikileak video:
1. The pilots are looking directly at the ground. So the video screen is misleading. It is not a fair representation of what the pilots are seeing.
2. US ground troops in the area (Bushmaster 6) had been fired upon and/or engaged in a firefight from persons unknown. This immediately makes anyone carrying a weapon an instant target.
3. The man poking his head around the corner of the building (the one whom some say had an RPG and others say had a camera with a long lens attached) had direct line of sight of an approaching Bradley. Dumb move in a combat situation. Again, automatically qualifies as an instant target.
4. I've seen two versions of the video. In the longer version, there are less edited radio transmissions. The conversation between the pilots, ground element and headquarters element makes more sense and is not as inflammatory as in the shorter, obviously edited, version.
5. Towards the end, women and children are seen fleeing from danger. The pilots essentially ignore them. The children inside the van are not visible by the pilots. It wasn't until after the fact that it was discovered there were children in the van. The US military evacuated them, provided medical attention, and then transferred custody to the Iraqis.
6. One of the Reuters photographers had a reputation for pushing his luck. Not saying he deserved to be killed. Just pointing out that he deliberately put himself in dangerous situations going after the big story. This time it cost him dearly. Also, he wasn't wearing a vest that journalists and photographers are supposed to wear.
This is a matter of a couple people being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
1. The pilots are looking directly at the ground. So the video screen is misleading. It is not a fair representation of what the pilots are seeing.
2. US ground troops in the area (Bushmaster 6) had been fired upon and/or engaged in a firefight from persons unknown. This immediately makes anyone carrying a weapon an instant target.
3. The man poking his head around the corner of the building (the one whom some say had an RPG and others say had a camera with a long lens attached) had direct line of sight of an approaching Bradley. Dumb move in a combat situation. Again, automatically qualifies as an instant target.
4. I've seen two versions of the video. In the longer version, there are less edited radio transmissions. The conversation between the pilots, ground element and headquarters element makes more sense and is not as inflammatory as in the shorter, obviously edited, version.
5. Towards the end, women and children are seen fleeing from danger. The pilots essentially ignore them. The children inside the van are not visible by the pilots. It wasn't until after the fact that it was discovered there were children in the van. The US military evacuated them, provided medical attention, and then transferred custody to the Iraqis.
6. One of the Reuters photographers had a reputation for pushing his luck. Not saying he deserved to be killed. Just pointing out that he deliberately put himself in dangerous situations going after the big story. This time it cost him dearly. Also, he wasn't wearing a vest that journalists and photographers are supposed to wear.
This is a matter of a couple people being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
You wouldn't be related to them there Hatfields would you ?
Actually by marriage yes.
You wouldn't be related to them there Hatfields would you ?
Actually by marriage yes.
Just wondered...
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