Cleric: Raped Women Are Like "Abandoned Meat"

[Annie]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks
Richard Kerbaj
26oct06

THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals.

In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years".

"But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked.

The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney's southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years' jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves."

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

"Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said.

Ms Hage-Ali said she was "disgusted and offended" by Shiek Hilali's comments. "I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia's Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense."

Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about "adultery and theft", a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian.

Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as "meat" and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk.

He told The Australian the message he intended to convey was: "If a woman who shows herself off, she is to blame ... but a man should be able to control himself". He said if a woman is "covered and respectful" she "demands respect from a man". "But when she is cheap, she throws herself at the man and cheapens herself."

Sheik Hilali also insisted his references to the Sydney gang rapes were to illustrate that Skaf was guilty and worthy of receiving such a harsh sentence.

Waleed Ali said Sheik Hilali was "normalising immoral sexual behaviour" by comparing women to meat and men to animals and entirely blaming women for being victims.

"It's basically saying that the immoral response of men to women who are not fully covered is as natural and as inevitable as the response of an animal tempted by food," he said.

"But (unlike animals) men are people who have moral responsibilities and the capability in engaging in moral action."

Revelation of the mufti's comments comes after he criticised Mr Howard last month in The Australian for saying a minority of migrant men mistreated their women. Sheik Hilali said such a minority was found in all faiths. "Those who don't respect their women are not true Muslims."

"There's a small percentage found among all religions, but we don't recognise ours as Muslims."

Aziza Abdel-Halim said Sheik Hilali's remarks during Ramadan were inaccurate and upsetting to the Muslim community.

"They are below and beyond any comment (and) do not deserve any consideration."

 

[Kagom]

Well, what an asshat.

 

[jillian]

Well, what an asshat.

Absolutely. About as nuts as someone saying that overturning Roe v Wade would lead to less rapes because women would have to be more "careful" and "responsible". ..... totally and completely

 

[no1tovote4]

Well, what an asshat.

No kidding...

I have a quick unrelated question for you...

Why "I will be God" instead of "I am God"?

Я буду богом = I will be a god

Я бог = I am a god.... Capitalize the "b".. Like this: Я Бог... And it would be I am God.

BTW - I was a Russian Translator in the Navy.

 

[Kagom]

No kidding...

I have a quick unrelated question for you...

Why "I will be God" instead of "I am God"?

Я буду богом = I will be a god

Я бог = I am a god.... Capitalize the "b".. Like this: Я Бог... And it would be I am God.

I don't speak Russian and did this with a translator, but I'm gonna change it. Thanks

 

[no1tovote4]

I don't speak Russian and did this with a translator, but I'm gonna change it. Thanks

Excellent. It was bugging me. Yeah, English to Russian Translator software gets confused with the verb "to be" in Russian.

If it is conjugated it becomes future tense, there is no present tense "to be" verb conjugation....

 

[Kagom]

Excellent. It was bugging me. Yeah, English to Russian Translator software gets confused with the verb "to be" in Russian.

If it is conjugated it becomes future tense, there is no present tense "to be" verb conjugation....

Wish you had said something sooner. I'm trying to at least learn the Russian alphabet before I try to get a personal instructor or find a classroom to learn Russian itself. Any little help with vocab and stuff is appreciated.

 

[no1tovote4]

Wish you had said something sooner. I'm trying to at least learn the Russian alphabet before I try to get a personal instructor or find a classroom to learn Russian itself. Any little help with vocab and stuff is appreciated.

Not a problem. I haven't been around on this board much lately so it would have been hard for me to say something...

Of course, we've gone and hijacked this thread. Maybe we should take this to the Chat area...

 

[Avatar4321]

so men rape women because they dont have their face covered? I doubt i think very much like a rapist, but if i wanted sex from someone, it wouldnt be because i could see their face. I mean the female face is a very beautiful thing, but its the rest of the body that gets the lust going usually.

But there is alot of rape that has nothing to with lust, but only with power. i cant see why a man would be less inclined to show dominance over a woman because she had her face covered.

If he was just advocating modesty, i dont think there would be that big a problem. modesty is a good thing. Honestly, I am not sure most women really understand what goes through a mans head when they see a woman dressed immodestly. its quite frustrating sometimes. Does that justify rape? heck no! But it's still freaking frustrating.

 

[Nuc]

I just moved down here, to Sydney, in part to get away from this kind of BS. Hopefully the Australian government and public don't get overly tolerant and passive like the Europeans and Americans.

:thumbdown:

 

[theHawk]

Absolutely. About as nuts as someone saying that overturning Roe v Wade would lead to less rapes because women would have to be more "careful" and "responsible". ..... totally and completely

lol I never heard of that one.

 

[Avatar4321]

lol I never heard of that one.

Why would you? its just a straw man she is setting up.

 

[Dr Grump]

Why would you? its just a straw man she is setting up.

No strawman at all. It was said by Glock or SE (forget which one) on another thread...

 

[jillian]

No strawman at all. It was said by Glock or SE (forget which one) on another thread...

Was SE..... :gang1:

I thought that was pretty sick, too.

 

[Nuc]

This story is HUGE down here and everybody is pissed off. Howard, to his credit, is heaping scorn upon this dung beetle and there is a parade of rather attractive Muslim women across the TV screen saying that this is bad for the image of Muslims and that this "cleric" is a bonehead.

 

[glockmail]

No strawman at all. It was said by Glock or SE (forget which one) on another thread...

**(points to signature again)**

BTW, I am happy to be your "personal embodiment of everything that is evil".

 

[glockmail]

.... a parade of rather attractive Muslim women across the TV screen ......

Gawd! There must be rapin' going on all over! Tell these women to stop!

 

[Annie]

Lots of links here, from my fav aussie blogger:

http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/uncovered_meat_is_the_disaster/

Thursday, October 26, 2006
"UNCOVERED MEAT IS THE DISASTER"

Sheik Sheik Sheik!
Sheik Sheik Sheik!
Sheik Hilali!
Shiek HiLAli!
-- KC & The Sunshine Band of Decadent Western Dancing Unpeople Who Must Die

IS IT possible to Sheik and spin at the same time? It is if you’re Keysar Trad, senior context-explainer for Australian mufti Sheik Catmeat Hilali:

He said Sheik Hilali had attracted unfair criticism from media and politicians over the comments and insisted the cleric had long been a supporter of women’s rights ... Mr Trad said the mufti’s words must be taken in context ...

He said the speech did not translate well to English “so all I can say is, he was trying to say to men and women, don’t provoke sexual attention”.

"Obviously, there is a severe penalty for rape and there should be. He’s saying, ‘If you do this, if you behave in a sexual way, see how much trouble you can get into’,” Mr Trad said.

Two points: if the Sheik’s meat-themed speeches don’t translate well to English, perhaps he should learn the language; and Trad’s linkage of rape to merely behaving “in a sexual way” is stunning. So, let’s work through the Sheik’s speech, as translated by SBS:

Those atheists, people of the book (Christians and Jews), where will they end up? In Surfers Paradise? On the Gold Coast? Where will they end up? In hell and not part-time, for eternity. They are the worst in God’s creation.

Nick and Nora Charles, Christians, seem to have ended up on the Gold Coast. Word on the street is they’ve invented a new cocktail called “People of the Book.” Even atheists like it!

When it comes to adultery, it’s 90 percent the woman’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman owns the weapon of seduction. It’s she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers.

What with all the shortening, raising, and lowering, Hilali sounds eerily like Futurama’s evil Brain Balls: “The elders tell of a young ball much like you. He bounced three metres in the air. Then he bounced 1.8 metres in the air. Then he bounced four metres in the air. Do I make myself clear?” Also, just like the Sheik, those balls “cannot condone bouncing of the seventh variety.”

Then, it’s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.

Sheik Hilali is referencing a notorious gang-rape case—all sparked, he claims, by rampant “raising and lowering”.

But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer al-Rafee says, if I came across a rape crime, I would discipline the man and order that the woman be jailed for life. Why would you do this, Rafee? He said because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it.

In the previous paragraph, Hilali slams a judge who jailed a rapist for 65 years. Next, he approvingly cites a “”writer” who would have rape victims jailed for life.

If you get a kilo of meat, and you don’t put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you’re crazy. Isn’t this true?

I don’t know. I guess none of us will, until someone at Democratic Underground performs a scientific demonstration of the Cat-Plate Theory.

If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park, or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, then whose fault will it be, the cat’s, or the uncovered meat’s? The uncovered meat is the disaster. If the meat was covered the cats wouldn’t roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won’t get it.

But if the meat is outside the fridge, and the cats are inside the fridge, they won’t get it either. For a long, long, time. Trust me on this.

If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she’s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don’t happen.

Except the disaster of someone being made a prisoner in her own house.

Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You’re my messenger in necessity, Satan tells women you‘re my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you’re the best of my weapons.

Women—Satan’s minions!

The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place.

“Rakes.” Haven’t heard that one for a few centuries. Next: the Sheik denounces “bounders” and “cads”. Helpfully, Australian Federal Police Commissioner Mick Keelty identifies the major crucial issue arising from this whole controversy:

"if we are not careful, I think we risk raising a generation of Australians who will have a bias against Islam."

Posted by Tim B. on 10/26/2006 at 02:13 PM

I have a question. Where are the women's rights folks with this, whom Sharia law would mutilate their genitals? Where are the gays whom Sharia law would kill? Why is it mostly white males, for the most part secular, speaking out on this?

 

[Nuc]

Lots of links here, from my fav aussie blogger:

http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/uncovered_meat_is_the_disaster/



I have a question. Where are the women's rights folks with this, whom Sharia law would mutilate their genitals? Where are the gays whom Sharia law would kill? Why is it mostly white males, for the most part secular, speaking out on this?

Actually everybody's up in arms including a lot of MUSLIM women. It's front page news here, actually taking up the entire front page. People are pissed! This is great because it's opening up Australian eyes to the idiot religion.

 

[Annie]

Oh gee, he's sorry if he offended:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_muslims

Muslim cleric apologizes for rape remark

By ROHAN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Writer Thu Oct 26, 2:57 PM ET

SYDNEY, Australia - Australia's most prominent Islamic cleric vowed Thursday to stand strong against widespread outrage over his description of women who don't wear head scarfs as "uncovered meat" who invite rape.

Sheik Taj Aldin al-Hilali, long a lightning rod in strained relations between the government and the Muslim minority, apologized for any offense he caused women in making the comments a month ago during a sermon marking the Islamic holy month of Ramadan. But he said he had no intention of stepping down.

Prime Minister John Howard and others denounced al-Hilali's remarks as blaming women for rape, and there were calls for the cleric to quit or be removed from his role as mufti in the faith.

The controversy comes amid tense relations between Australia's estimated 300,000 Muslims and the rest of the mostly Christian-heritage population of about 20 million. Last December, the nation was gripped by riots that often pitted gangs of white youths against youths of Middle Eastern decent.

Howard recently offended parts of the Muslim community by singling out some Muslims as extremists who should adopt Australia's liberal attitudes to women's rights.

After last year's deadly London transit bombings, Howard accused Australian Islamic leaders of not doing enough to condemn extremism and offered government money to train local imams and reduce dependence on migrant clerics. The government has also introduced tough counterterrorism laws and is proposing tighter citizenship rules.

The issue of how Muslim women should dress has caused debate in Britain since former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, now leader of the House of Commons, said this month that Muslim women visiting his office should remove their veils. Similar passions raged when France banned head scarves and other religious symbols in public schools two years ago.

Al-Hilali, 65, is the top cleric at Sydney's largest mosque, and is considered the most senior Islamic leader by many Muslims in Australia and New Zealand, having been appointed mufti by Australia's top Islamic body.

His remarks about women drew national attention after they were printed Thursday in a national newspaper, The Australian.

In a translation from Arabic by the newspaper, later verified by other media, al-Hilali was quoted as saying in the sermon: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

"The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he was quoted as saying, referring to the head scarf worn by some Muslim women.

Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward said al-Hilali's comments encouraged rape and that Muslims should force him to step down.

"This is inciting young men to a violent crime because it is the woman's fault," Goward told television's Nine Network. "It is time the Islamic community did more than say they were horrified. I think it is time he left."

Howard said the comments were "appalling and reprehensible."

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," he told reporters.

Al-Hilali also faced pressure from within the Muslim community.

"Whether he steps down or not, I think it's time for Australia's Muslim faith to have a religious leader who has a better understanding of Australian laws, Australian values, and the Australian way of life," said Alia Karaman, a female member of a leaders' group at a Sydney mosque.

Al-Hilali issued a statement Thursday saying The Australian had selectively quoted from the sermon, and that he was shocked at the reaction.

"I would like to unequivocally confirm that the presentation related to religious teachings on modesty and not to go to extremes in enticements," the statement said.

"This does not condone rape, I condemn rape," he said. "Women in our Australian society have the freedom and right to dress as they choose, the duty of man is to avert his glance or walk away."

Asked if he would quit his senior post, al-Hilali told Seven Network television news: "No, no, no."

Al-Hilali is an Egyptian-born Sunni who has been a staunch critic of Australia's alliance with the United States in the
Iraq war. He triggered a controversy in 2004 for saying in a sermon in Lebanon that the Sept. 11 attacks were "God's work against the oppressors." Al-Hilali said later he did not support the attacks, or terrorism.

Last year, al-Hilali traveled to Iraq to help negotiate the release of an Australian engineer from kidnappers, winning thanks from the hostage's family.

Many Australian Muslims say they are increasingly treated with suspicion since the Sept. 11 and other international terrorist attacks.

Waleed Aly, a member of the Islamic Council of Victoria state, said al-Hilali's comments would result in more antagonism toward Muslims.

"I am expecting a deluge of hate mail," he said. "I am expecting people to get abused in the street and get abused at work."