Bull Ring Challenge to Fort Fun Indiana: replicating medical study of Christian spiritual healing

[emilynghiem]

Okay, now I am going to call Fort Fun Indiana to either retract a claim of no scientific evidence and/or to agree on a subject of a study to replicate similar findings.

Here is the reference to the medical study on RA

Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis - PubMed

In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Supplemental, distant intercessory prayer offers no additional benefits.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I can post or mail FFI the book on HEALING that describes some of the exceptional results of the study, which was funded by Templeton Foundation and published in a formal medical process under professional peer review and other standard procedures as any other study.

Again, some areas I would like to target to replicate studies
1. Schizophrenic patients hearing voices or exhibiting demonic personalities or obsessions
2. Eating disorders or phobias that if reduced can start saving lives and health from death or damage with more immediate short term results that can be documented over shorter periods
3. Longterm cases of pedophilia and criminal disorders by birth or by irreversible abuse, for studies over longer periods to develop methods of diagnosing relapses and remission and stages of recovery by degrees even if conditions are chronic or terminal
4. Healing political relationships and increasing ability of leaders of nations, parties or other larger institutions to collaborate on consensual solutions instead of fighting over conflicts using adversarial tactics, like coercion war bullying political or military force, that damage or destroy relationships instead of building constructive partnerships.

 

[Phillip]

Okay, now I am going to call Fort Fun Indiana to either retract a claim of no scientific evidence and/or to agree on a subject of a study to replicate similar findings.

Here is the reference to the medical study on RA

Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis - PubMed

In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Supplemental, distant intercessory prayer offers no additional benefits.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I can post or mail FFI the book on HEALING that describes some of the exceptional results of the study, which was funded by Templeton Foundation and published in a formal medical process under professional peer review and other standard procedures as any other study.

Again, some areas I would like to target to replicate studies
1. Schizophrenic patients hearing voices or exhibiting demonic personalities or obsessions
2. Eating disorders or phobias that if reduced can start saving lives and health from death or damage with more immediate short term results that can be documented over shorter periods
3. Longterm cases of pedophilia and criminal disorders by birth or by irreversible abuse, for studies over longer periods to develop methods of diagnosing relapses and remission and stages of recovery by degrees even if conditions are chronic or terminal
4. Healing political relationships and increasing ability of leaders of nations, parties or other larger institutions to collaborate on consensual solutions instead of fighting over conflicts using adversarial tactics, like coercion war bullying political or military force, that damage or destroy relationships instead of building constructive partnerships.

Bullshit! My wife as RA and no amount of praying in the worlds helped her...

 

[Grumblenuts]

Never heard of a bull named emily
and never hope to see one
But I can tell you anyhow
I'd rather see than be one

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Okay, now I am going to call Fort Fun Indiana to either retract a claim of no scientific evidence and/or to agree on a subject of a study to replicate similar findings.

Here is the reference to the medical study on RA

Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis - PubMed

In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Supplemental, distant intercessory prayer offers no additional benefits.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I can post or mail FFI the book on HEALING that describes some of the exceptional results of the study, which was funded by Templeton Foundation and published in a formal medical process under professional peer review and other standard procedures as any other study.

Again, some areas I would like to target to replicate studies
1. Schizophrenic patients hearing voices or exhibiting demonic personalities or obsessions
2. Eating disorders or phobias that if reduced can start saving lives and health from death or damage with more immediate short term results that can be documented over shorter periods
3. Longterm cases of pedophilia and criminal disorders by birth or by irreversible abuse, for studies over longer periods to develop methods of diagnosing relapses and remission and stages of recovery by degrees even if conditions are chronic or terminal
4. Healing political relationships and increasing ability of leaders of nations, parties or other larger institutions to collaborate on consensual solutions instead of fighting over conflicts using adversarial tactics, like coercion war bullying political or military force, that damage or destroy relationships instead of building constructive partnerships.

Garbage study. Small. Not double blind. Not a study on the efficacy of prayer. Only possible result to speak of -- and this is a stretch -- is the short term psychosomatic effect of belief on feeling pain.

I.E., the placebo effect.

Try that tiny garbage study again, but only with Muslims. Have all the prayers be prayers to Jesus the Savior.

Post results.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

emilynghiem

I called your one study, and raise you 16 more studies, for a total of 17.

A systematic review of the empirical literature on intercessory prayer - Database of Abstracts of Reviews of Effects (DARE): Quality-assessed Reviews - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Fort Fun Indiana
If 100 studies or 1000 fail to use forgiveness to change the person's dynamics for the healing to work,
this still does not negate the 1 study on RA that did capture the forgiveness factor in the team healing prayer that did prove effective in yielding positive results medically.

You can cite as many failed studies as you can find.

But if they did not use the prayer for forgiving the causes of obstruction and generational patterns, then this merely proves the same point I am making.

The key factor that the studies would need to differentiate is whether or not the person agreed to forgive spiritually and remove the obstruction to healing.

We need to compare those cases and out outcomes with cases you cite where no such forgiveness steps were taken as the key to the healing process.

Of course if you skip that step, the healing isn't complete.

I even heard of cases, from two independent witnesses, where temporary healing occurred but didn't last. The people's conditions returned because they didn't fully forgive and undergo the entire process.

One of them was able to heal after agreeing to forgiving and help other people to forgive and heal.

That is the key step in the process that makes the difference longterm with degrees and stages of healing.

Fort Fun Indiana
In short if all the failed studies you cite do not use forgiveness prayer to heal generational patterns, then that is the common factor that can be proven to CORRELATE and predict either success or failure.

So these studies you cite can still be found consistent backing up the same theory I am saying can be demonstrated by both successes and failures.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

this still does not negate the 1 study on RA

Uh...yes it does. That is precisely what it does. You could have 20 studies that show a signal. But if all of the studies together show NO signal (as is the case, here), then there is no evidence of effectiveness.

That's exactly how it works.

The body of science not only does not back up your theory, they demonstrate your theory is probably wrong.

The more work that is done sowing signal, the more likely it is that your theory is just false.

Because, of course it is. Magical action at a distance from happy thoughts? Give me a break. Calling it "prayer" doesn't make it any less absurd, magical, or laughable.

 

[emilynghiem]

Uh...yes it does. That is precisely what it does. You could have 20 studies that show a signal. But if all of the studies together show NO signal (as is the case, here), then there is no evidence of effectiveness.

That's exactly how it works.

The body of science not only does not back up your theory, they demonstrate your theory is probably wrong.

The more work that is done sowing signal, the more likely it is that your theory is just false.

Because, of course it is. Magical action at a distance from happy thoughts? Give me a break. Calling it "prayer" doesn't make it any less absurd, magical, or laughable.

Dear Fort Fun Indiana
To show the REASON for effectiveness or ineffectiveness, the study has to isolate variables and factors.

Do you know the parable about drinking water every day and getting drunk? You cannot assume the water is causing the drunkenness, because in that example, the person drinking water each day also drank Scotch one day, Gin another day, Wine, Whiskey etc. The Water was the common factor, but so was the ALCOHOL.

Here Prayer is the Water, and either Forgiveness is the Alcohol that works or Unforgiveness is the Alcohol causing failure.

Not the prayer by itself.

As the consultant at Templeton Fdn said it, the study has to be constructed to define and isolate the factors. These have to be quantified.

You citing a bunch of studies showing failure and saying it proves that "prayer" doesn't work, is like the person looking at the example of drinking water every day and getting drunk, and assuming it's the water instead of identifying the key factor of alcohol.

In this case, Forgiveness and Unforgiveness, not the prayers alone which can vary in content and effect.

The water if it contained alcohol could get people drunk.

The study would have to compare water with alcohol and water without.

The studies on prayer would have to capture the extent of forgiveness or unforgiveness and the relative results in healing or failing to heal.

As with the study on RA which did include the forgiveness process in the team healing method, this study did show results that could only be attributed to those methods and not placebo effect which did not work.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

To show the REASON for effectiveness or ineffectiveness, the study has to isolate variables and factors

But that is not how anything g actually works.

To show effectiveness, all the studies must produce a strong signal.

The studies produced no signal.

You just gave us a fine demonstration of the placebo effects and why we don't decide things on one small study.

This is a well known concept that directs all medical research. You discredit yourself to try to ignore it.

 

[emilynghiem]

But that is not how anything g actually works.

To show effectiveness, all the studies must produce a strong signal.

The studies produced no signal.

You just gave us a fine demonstration of the placebo effects and why we don't decide things on one small study.

This is a well known concept that directs all medical research. You discredit yourself to try to ignore it.

No I AM saying to separate control groups.

What I am saying the study needs to distinguish and quantify is the Forgiveness factor. That factor cannot be left out, so whatever groups are set up, that is the factor to be compared in what makes prayer/therapy work or not.

We would study and compare people who do agree to go through the full forgiveness process, those who refuse to forgive, and those who forgive partially or with conditions and to what degree.

Then we compare those 3 groups with the rate or degree of healing effects.

What I am saying NOT to do is to FAIL to distinguish this forgiveness factor, then assume the study group "failed to show healing prayer works."

Is it called a double blind study?

When you study two distinct groups at the same time?

* Forgiveness
*Unforgiveness
And/or quantifying degrees of both
To compare with the outcomes and degrees of healing success or failure

Fort Fun Indiana

PS my nurse friend in public health Merrilee Beazley support this idea of a formal medical study. And also my friend Mark Mabry who has obtained grants for studies on therapy for depression.

Of course we follow Scientific Study methods.

My point is to pinpoint the Forgiveness factor as the critical difference in success or failure. Whether you use comtrol groups, double blind, or whatever means Scientists normally use.

The study with MacNutt on RA cases concluded that his team methods worked.

The study on heart patients using just "intercessory prayer" alone did not work.

This proposed study would capture the difference in degrees or rates of success/failure between people going through the forgiveness process as part of the healing prayer, versus people omitting that part of the process.

Everything else would remain the same.

The objective is to isolate that variable in order to show that is why prayer heals or fails, more likely statistically.

There are still cases that won't work, or that will. But the prevailing pattern should show forgiveness correlates with healing while unforgiveness with failure, if this hypothesis is correct.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I don't have anything else to say in this thread. The meta analysis of the studies showing NO EFFECT above placebo effect has been posted. Any rational person knows the debate is over.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The scientific connection between prayer and forgiveness is?

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't have anything else to say in this thread. The meta analysis of the studies showing NO EFFECT above placebo effect has been posted. Any rational person knows the debate is over.

Dear Fort Fun Indiana
Again if you didn't study the Forgiveness factor, then of course the process would fail.

Quantifying and capturing that key factor
EXPLAINS
Why the study on RA showed healing results
While other studies on methods WITHOUT the forgiveness process FAILED.

Yes you use control groups and double blind studies to capture the difference between WHAT prayer methods succeed and WHICH ones fail.

Fort Fun Indiana

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Again if you didn't study the Forgiveness factor, then of course the process would fail.

Nonsense.

Any and all are invited to conduct more studies.

they will show the same result: this magical nonsense has no effect.

 

[emilynghiem]

The scientific connection between prayer and forgiveness is?

The therapies prayers and methods that involve the person FORGIVING past issues correlate with SUCCESS rates in healing and recovery.

The process or methods that do not include this step correlate with failure to heal or resolve past problems, to the degree the person refuses to forgive.

So it is a proportional relationship between forgiveness <--> healing and between unforgiveness <--> failure to resolve and recover from issues

Whether you use prayer or counseling etc. The factor of the DEGREE of forgiveness correlates proportionally to the outcome.

(After we establish this GENERAL correlation, then we could study if Christian deliverance prayer is more effective in removing schizophrenic voices, or if other methods allow the same degree of forgiveness and healing as Christian prayers do)

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The therapies prayers and methods that involve the person FORGIVING past issues correlate with SUCCESS rates in healing and recovery.

But now you have to do studies that involve children's books that preach forgiveness, and embroidered pillows, and bumper stickers, and Hallmark cards, and....

in the end, the best you will find is that someone's state of mind might affect their healing. And then you will have rehashed mountains of work already done, that show this is negligible above placebo effect.

I don't think you get how this works.

 

[fncceo]

My wife as RA and no amount of praying in the worlds helped her...

You have to pray to the correct deity...

 

[emilynghiem]

Nonsense.

Any and all are invited to conduct more studies.

they will show the same result: this magical nonsense has no effect.

What is your explanation of how MacNutts method of team prayer DID result in positive outcomes and conclusions, published in a formal medical study and journal, that could only be attributed to the methods that team used? And yes this used placebo and the usual study/format for medical research.

How do you explain why MacNutt's team methods worked but others did not?

Fort Fun Indiana

Ironically, when I brought up this study to another grant writer and advisor with Templeton, he had already seen so many studies proving forgiveness has healing effects, he did not think it was necessary. So he came to the opposite conclusion as you.

Why?

Because he and I were pinpointing the Forgiveness factor, while you leave that out.

Prayer alone can be your "placebo".

But the key factor in what helps change people to restore natural healing is praying and agreeing to FORGIVE.

It is funny the one factor that makes the difference, you keep wanting to skirt.

So you are right, in a way, that to keep excluding Forgiveness as the big key step will predict failure over and over.

You are right, the Templeton rep is right that studies repeatedly show forgiveness correlates with better health and healing, and I am right that the different outcomes of these studies are because of that difference!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What is your explanation of how MacNutts method of team prayer DID result in positive outcomes and conclusions, published in a formal medical study and journal, that could only be attributed to the methods that team used?

first, that's a lie. It can also be attributed to sheer chance and placebo effect. As shown by the larger body of science.

Stop trying to slip in lies.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The therapies prayers and methods that involve the person FORGIVING past issues correlate with SUCCESS rates in healing and recovery.

The process or methods that do not include this step correlate with failure to heal or resolve past problems, to the degree the person refuses to forgive.

So it is a proportional relationship between forgiveness <--> healing and between unforgiveness <--> failure to resolve and recover from issues

Whether you use prayer or counseling etc. The factor of the DEGREE of forgiveness correlates proportionally to the outcome.

(After we establish this GENERAL correlation, then we could study if Christian deliverance prayer is more effective in removing schizophrenic voices, or if other methods allow the same degree of forgiveness and healing as Christian prayers do)

So, in other words, still no scientifically "establish"ed connection. Thanks.