Bull Ring Challenge to Fort Fun Indiana: replicating medical study of Christian spiritual healing

[emilynghiem]

But now you have to do studies that involve children's books that preach forgiveness, and embroidered pillows, and bumper stickers, and Hallmark cards, and....

in the end, the best you will find is that someone's state of mind might affect their healing. And then you will have rehashed mountains of work already done, that show this is negligible above placebo effect.

I don't think you get how this works.

Dear Fort Fun Indiana
That is why we have to isolate and quantify the specific forgiveness process used in MacNutt's method.

It is very grueling to go through the extensive process of someone's spiritual and generational background to identify causes of abuse, addiction or obstruction and specifically agree to prayer to remove these.

This is NOT the same level of thinking positive happy thoughts on a greeting card.

Again, we DISTINGUISH the DEGREES and levels.

An alcoholic or pedophile addict cannot be healed by merely regular prayer or spiritual reading or music.

These are serious cases of deep rooted and inborn sickness that require equally deep therapy to uproot the cause of sickness.

Studying this is like studying cancer that could go into remission or relapse.

That isn't healed by greeting cards or singing Kumbaya.

The severe cases of people healing of severely deadly conditions usually require equally serious deep therapy almost like spiritual surgery or "chemotherapy" to cut out all the "tumors" in someone's psyche so the person can operate normally and undergo regular mental and medical treatment like other patients.

This isn't something that can be done lightly.

The real serious healing takes an intensive spiritual process.

So yes, all that can be documented so it is clear what patients underwent which steps and to what degree.

Sources: Glimpses of the Devil by Scott Peck. Healing by Francis MacNutt, 1999 or later has the RA study cited as published and funded by Templeton Fdn.

 

[emilynghiem]

Sorry Fort Fun Indiana
I have found no person able to get rid of demonic voices permanently at the root who didn't use some form of Christian healing prayer.

The medications only suppress symptoms but do not cure the cause of sickness.

Www.ariseandshine.org
Www.healingisyours.com

^ Here are two witnesses to using Christian healing prayer where medicine and surgery fail to cure the problem.

Let's REPLICATE these studies.

Let's see if you or anyone can just do the "placebo" effect and cure pedophiles, or criminals with demonic voices, or drug addicts "merely by suggestion."

 

[emilynghiem]

So, in other words, still no scientifically "establish"ed connection. Thanks.

Dear Grumblenuts
The connection is with FORGIVENESS

And yes there are multitudes of scientific studies showing this in many different ways

This is like arguing over Vitamin C/Citric acid versus oranges, limes or other citrus fruits.

The common factor shown between these fruits is the Vitamin C in the Citric Acid.

The common factor in the scientific studies is the Forgiveness process WITHIN the prayer and counseling therapy.

We are not disagreeing.
But talking past each other.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Dear @Grumblenuts
The connection is with FORGIVENESS

Yes, obviously, but not with prayer, scientifically. Again, thanks.

 

[emilynghiem]

Bullshit! My wife as RA and no amount of praying in the worlds helped her...

Dear Phillip The prayer method that worked completely on some RA patients and partially in others (while some had no effects) involved generational therapy and prayer to remove past obstructions to healing. This is not your everyday normal prayer.

Healing by deliverance and breaking generational patterns is much deeper and involved.

It works in cases where someone is blocked spiritually so once that blockage is removed then this restores or enhances the mind and body's connection and ability to heal.

This type of healing prayer has different degrees of effect for each person.

It is rare for people to be fully miraculously healed instantly, though the RA study by Templeton Fdn did include at least one patient "Mike" who went from being crippled in bed, to walking completely cured and pain free without medications.

At the very least most people report increased support to recover, whether mental energy state of mind, physical improvement, or better opportunities or help from other people.

The more we forgive and get rid of sources of negative obstructions, this frees up more of our positive healing energy which helps our thoughts, minds, bodies and relations to focus on positive steps instead of staying stuck in negative stages.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes, obviously, but not with prayer, scientifically. Again, thanks.

Yes Prayer is included, too, especially with extreme cases like criminal sickness or demonic voices.

For certain extreme cases like those, the only thing people have used that works is the deliverance or exorcism prayers.

Scott Peck was an equally skeptic doctor/pschiatrist who scoffed at demonic therapy and sought to use the Scientific Method to prove this was DELUSIONAL.

In his preliminary observations of 2 schizophrenic patients, he changed his mind.

Instead of thinking science would disprove and debunk this spiritual nonsense, he decided the patterns and stages of sickness and recovery were distinguishable enough to quantify scientifically, like other psychotherapy observations.

He recommended formal medical research studies to quantify this therapy and the stages of improvement and cure, or relapse and attacks.

I would go even further and want to see brain wave screening and diagnosis to capture the stages of disease similar to stages of cancer or diabetes.

But Peck observed enough changes in behavior to conclude that trained observations were enough to determine if the therapy was working, to what degree, and the stages the patient was in.

The effects were that clear that they could be quantified medically by doctor observations.

And like you are saying, the spiritual process still remains faith based. Peck concluded the same thing.

95% of what occurred could be quantified and explained in scientific physical terms and observations.

But the 5% he experienced and witnessed on a spiritual level, including observations his whole team saw at the same time, remain faith based. You would have to replicate the process and see these things for yourself to know it was not made up.

But the physical results can still be documented medically by scientific standards.

Just not all the experiences that occurred in the process of healing therapy which depend on each case.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Yes Prayer is included, too, especially with extreme cases like criminal sickness or demonic voices.

For certain extreme cases like those, the only thing people have used that works is the deliverance or exorcism prayers.

Scott Peck was an equally skeptic doctor/pschiatrist who scoffed at demonic therapy and sought to use the Scientific Method to prove this was DELUSIONAL.

In his preliminary observations of 2 schizophrenic patients, he changed his mind.

Instead of thinking science would disprove and debunk this spiritual nonsense, he decided the patterns and stages of sickness and recovery were distinguishable enough to quantify scientifically, like other psychotherapy observations.

He recommended formal medical research studies to quantify this therapy and the stages of improvement and cure, or relapse and attacks.

I would go even further and want to see brain wave screening and diagnosis to capture the stages of disease similar to stages of cancer or diabetes.

But Peck observed enough changes in behavior to conclude that trained observations were enough to determine if the therapy was working, to what degree, and the stages the patient was in.

The effects were that clear that they could be quantified medically by doctor observations.

And like you are saying, the spiritual process still remains faith based. Peck concluded the same thing.

95% of what occurred could be quantified and explained in scientific physical terms and observations.

But the 5% he experienced and witnessed on a spiritual level, including observations his whole team saw at the same time, remain faith based. You would have to replicate the process and see these things for yourself to know it was not made up.

But the physical results can still be documented medically by scientific standards.

Just not all the experiences that occurred in the process of healing therapy which depend on each case.

So that study was a double blind? Repeated successfully by independent scientists or qualified medical practitioners with similar results (actually "established" in other words)? How does one go about eliminating prayer as a possible contributor in such a highly religious society anyway? Doesn't sound likely to me. Who's paying for the study? Who's selling books and getting rich from it? Show me the money.

 

[Grumblenuts]

For certain extreme cases like those, the only thing people have used that works is the deliverance or exorcism prayers.

Sure. And that's somehow attributable to forgiveness? Pull the other one.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Point being, no one requires religion (religious prayer) in order to forgive others or to be forgiven by others. While both healing and forgiveness are obviously useful, powerful practices, religion (the "spiritual") remains superfluous silliness.