Carrier Aviation ~ 100 years of USA/USN Traditions; 1922-2022

I would modify that slightly.

"The Battleship is the only conventional weapon capable of taking down a carrier."

Unquestionably, a nuke would take one out of service, but even that would likely not sink it unless it went off right on top of it (or under it). Much of the crew would likely be dead and it would have significant damage, but even a nuke would likely not "destroy a carrier".

And how do we know that? Why, Operation Crossroads. Where the USS Saratoga CV-3 (1925) was only 2 km from the 23 kiloton blast of Test Able of Operation Crossroads on 30 June 1946. That was an airburst, and set much of her teak deck on fire. But overall, she only sustained light and easily repairable damage. She was ultimately sunk by the 23 kt detonation of Test Backer on 23 July, which was an underwater detonation only 400 meters from the keel.



Move to about 3:44 of the above video, and you can see the damage to a US carrier after a nuclear blast.

It took 2 nukes to sink a ship built over 15 years before the US entered WWII to sink a carrier. And the carriers today are much more hardened than those old ships ever were (as well as much more defended).

Most have absolutely no idea how much damage a carrier can withstand. And this is a simple fact, not a single fleet carrier of the US that entered service after the US entered WWII was ever sunk in combat. Not a single one. And that includes 17 that saw service during WWII. We lost some earlier pre-war and experimental carriers, but not a single one of the Essex Class or following carriers. And some of those took some significant damage during and after the war.

Not even the USS Forrestal (CV-59 - 1959) was sunk after at least 8 1,000 pound bombs and hundreds of smaller bombs detonated right on her flight deck, including an out of control fire fueled by over 40,000 gallons of jet fuel and was out of control for over 7 hours could destroy her. She returned to the US under her own power, and after less than 7 months of repairs was back in service.

operation-crossroads-baker-shot-1024x738.png


It is very possible to take a modern carrier out of service, but that is far from destroying one. One simply needs to look at the overwhelming damage that both the US and Japan had to do to the carriers of each other in order to sink one. Even the pre-war ones took a lot of damage. The only real exception were the escort carriers, largely converted from pre-war light supply vessels. Those were really no more difficult to sink than any other freighter of the era.

Oh, and the time hash I gave earlier of the damage to a carrier of the era. That was not the USS Saratoga. No, the carrier with all that damage is actually the USS Independence (CVL-22), an early war conversion of a light cruiser that was already under construction when the war started. That ship was actually only half a kilometer away from Test Able, but was around 5 miles from Test Baker during that test. 5 miles from two nukes (one almost on top of her), she was then towed back to Hawaii then San Francisco to study the damage, then was sunk off the California Coast in 1951.

This was how much a quick conversion to a light carrier at the start of WWII could survive. I find it amazing that people seem to think they are built out of paper mache and chewing gum.


It's been noted that it takes at least a 2000lb hit to bring a carrier down as long as it is a strategic hit on the carrier. And it has to be a direct hit. Even a Nuke won't be able to do an equiv of a 2000lb + direct hit. It's going to take it out of commission but given a few months, the carrier will be back in service with, of course, a new crew, and new AC.

The Battleship (Iowa) throws a 2500lb projectile and when it starts hitting it will continue hitting. The Battleship also will require large hits to bring down. Afterall, the CVN-65 (Enterprise) shared the same keel as the Iowa Class.
 
I don't know if this is true, but I recall reading somewhere that in their pilot training the Japanese stayed with the World War One era tactic of engaging an enemy aircraft by approaching it from above and behind.

While the U.S. trained its pilots to attack at almost any possible angle which dramatically opened up the possibilities for American pilots to kill a Japanese aircraft.

Is that true?

The American Pilots were taught to Boom and Zoom. While the P-39 was not capable of this, the P-40 was.
So was the Cats. When they started doing this, the kill rate went way up. And of course the P-38 was flown that way and had a fantastic kill rate. They didn't place the limits on the P-38s like they did in the European. Finally, in the middle of 1943, the ETO allowed the P-38 was allowed to fly it's strengths and it's kill rate went way up there as well.; Even today, the F-15 will try and get you into a Boom and Zoom fight which there is nothing better at it than the F-15 but that tactic doesn't really work so well anymore with fighter against fighter.

What the Zero lacked was speed. All the USN and USAAF had to do is to keep their speed above 300 mph and the Zero couldn't touch them.
 
That reminds me of a television episode about carrier aviation. They decided to have an F-14 Tomcat do a flyby of the carrier at medium altitude and hit Mach 2.

A flyby like this was so rare that literally thousands of the carrier crew lined up to watch.

The Tomcat successfully made the fly by (barely visible for the carrier) and you could hear the sonic booms.

Unfortunately within a few seconds, the Tomcat suffered a catastrophic engine failure and the crew had to eject.

I saw the same thing but it wasn't Mach 2. It was Mach 1. The F-14 wasn't capable of hitting Mach 2 at sea level. If you notice the cone. Half of the bird was ahead of it while the back half was either engulf by it or behind it. That only happens near Mach 1 or Transsonic. Not all of an AC will go into Mach flight at the same time.
 
But note I was suggesting taking the original A-4 idea/design and upgrade(redesign/rebuild~new version) to early 21st century tech.

Such as use composites in place of metals, newer and more powerful engine, smaller and lighter integrated circuit electronics/avionics, an internal gun(or two), laser designate target system, GPS, FLIR, heads-up displays, etc. ...

It's cheaper to build a brand new bird.
 
You have to realize, the "F-117 is not really a "fighter". Properly, it should have been named the A-117 as it was entirely for ground attack. And had absolutely zero air to air capability.

You are wrong. The F-117 had the correct designator. The AF was getting rid of all the A designations. The A-10 is just old enough to be the last USAF bird to carry the A designator. That is what I have come to realize.
 
I saw the same thing but it wasn't Mach 2. It was Mach 1. The F-14 wasn't capable of hitting Mach 2 at sea level. If you notice the cone. Half of the bird was ahead of it while the back half was either engulf by it or behind it. That only happens near Mach 1 or Transsonic. Not all of an AC will go into Mach flight at the same time.

I might've been wrong.
 
I might've been wrong.

I think both the Soviets and the Americans looked at building a multimach sea level AC to use as a weapon. The damage that a larger Mach 2 AC could do flying just over a mass group of soldiers whether they are in armor or not would been devastating. The cost versus the gains ruled it out though.
 
Jeez...I see you people are acting like the useless old farts that you all probably are.
(no...I did not read your posts. I saw no links - so I moved on).
You people are amusing...I will give you that.

Here is a simple request to you hyperventilating imbeciles whose whittle feewings are so hurt because I dissed you and your juvenile ideas:

Post links - from respected sources - of unbiased, factual proof that:

a) Ohio (or new Columbia) SSGN's CANNOT replace carriers and save a SHIT LOAD of money in the process?
And forget about your 'providing ground support' bullshit. I already proved that they are unnecessary for that as the Marines and the Army/Air Force have their own, organic aircraft for that.
b) that AEGIS can track hypersonic missiles FOR CERTAIN.

c) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Russia to successfully launch, multiple hypersonic missiles at CSG's from Backfire/Blackjack bombers.

I don't give a shit what you trolls 'think'.
Or what some loser you link to 'thinks'.
Either post FACTS/DATA from RESPECTED, UNBAISED SOURCES that disproves the above?
Or your posts on this will be ignored.

If I do not see a link(s) in your replies (which I KNOW you trolls will make) - I will not waste my time reading them.

Unlike you lot - apparently - I have a life.
And I have little time for trolling, old farts who think they know about things they know dick about.

I could be wrong about any or all of the above.
And if I am - I want to know.

I want to learn about this stuff.
But from FACTS/DATA...not trolls, fucking guessing because they have no lives and post thousands of times in chat forums while they wait to die..
 
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The American Pilots were taught to Boom and Zoom. While the P-39 was not capable of this, the P-40 was.
So was the Cats. When they started doing this, the kill rate went way up. And of course the P-38 was flown that way and had a fantastic kill rate. They didn't place the limits on the P-38s like they did in the European. Finally, in the middle of 1943, the ETO allowed the P-38 was allowed to fly it's strengths and it's kill rate went way up there as well.; Even today, the F-15 will try and get you into a Boom and Zoom fight which there is nothing better at it than the F-15 but that tactic doesn't really work so well anymore with fighter against fighter.

What the Zero lacked was speed. All the USN and USAAF had to do is to keep their speed above 300 mph and the Zero couldn't touch them.
IIRC, what you call "Boom and Zoom", especially with the P-40 was the main tactic taught by Chennault to his AVG=American Volunteer Group, a.k.a. the "Flying Tigers". Many of whom went back to USA military service after the AVG was disbanded in July 1942.
 
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There is a saying regarding the arguments between single engine vs. twin engine aircraft.

"Having only one engine reduces your chances of engine failure by 50%"
Single engine aircraft tend to be a legacy from the World Wars, and also tend to be cheaper to build, and maintain. For another consideration, two engines in two airframes = two aircraft versus one, with two engines offers more versatility in missions.

FWIW, stumbled across this while making click rounds this morning. Not presented in any order of preference and there are a few detail clitches with most on the list. The F8F Bearcat is an anomaly since it saw no real combat in WWII, and the P-38 is the only twin engine on the list.

Top Guns Of Their Time: 10 Most Successful Fighter Planes Of World War 2​

 
IIRC, what you call "Boom and Zoom", especially with the P-40 was the main tactic taught by Chennault to his AVG=American Volunteer Group, a.k.a. the "Flying Tigers". Many of whom went make to USA military service after the AVG was disbanded in July 1942.

True, the poor F4F was still trying to fly tail to tail with the zero and was being eaten up. The flying Tigers brought those tactics into the Pacific and things changed.
 
What do you need to have air cover over the ocean for?

Littoral zone?
Why the heck would an Ohio class boat be in shallow water, just offshore?
The tomahawk missile has a range of about 1,000 miles.
The sub could be hundreds of miles offshore.

You are just guessing/making stuff up now.
You have NO IDEA what will be built in the future.
But alright - where is your link to unbiased, factual evidence that no one will ever build any more SSGN's?

And you do realize that to convert a ballistic sub into an SSGN is no big deal...just change the vertical launch tubes?
Which is what happened with the Ohio's (plus they made other, structural changes - but they were not necessary to launch the Tomahawks).
"littoral waters" extend hundreds of miles offshore in many locations.

And you know we don't have many Ohio class SSBNs. We will never have enough to convert to cruise missile submarines that can replace the ordnance delivery capability of carrier battle groups.
 
"littoral waters" extend hundreds of miles offshore in many locations.

And you know we don't have many Ohio class SSBNs. We will never have enough to convert to cruise missile submarines that can replace the ordnance delivery capability of carrier battle groups.
The Ohio, and others in it's class are set to be retired within the next few years (if not already starting).
These are former SSBN, "Boomers", which started with 24 Trident ballistic missiles (most likely armed with nukes(MIRVs).
Conversion to SSGN was about 2002-2006 and three other of the class were also converted, and now reaching retirement. Had 22 tubes with 7 Tomahawks each, @ 154 total. Also note that these have a single warhead and can hit only one target each.

Short of the long is that scheme for using Ohio's to replace CVs is not viable since there soon will be no "Ohio"s to use, not to mention it fails on many other uses that CVs can do.
 
"littoral waters" extend hundreds of miles offshore in many locations.

And you know we don't have many Ohio class SSBNs. We will never have enough to convert to cruise missile submarines that can replace the ordnance delivery capability of carrier battle groups.
Also, at about $2 million a copy and with only 1,000 pound conventional warhead, they (Tomahawks) are rather pricey compared to a 1,000 bomb, which when carried by aircraft, drop from a reusable engine/transport system.
 
The American Pilots were taught to Boom and Zoom. While the P-39 was not capable of this, the P-40 was.
So was the Cats. When they started doing this, the kill rate went way up. And of course the P-38 was flown that way and had a fantastic kill rate. They didn't place the limits on the P-38s like they did in the European. Finally, in the middle of 1943, the ETO allowed the P-38 was allowed to fly it's strengths and it's kill rate went way up there as well.; Even today, the F-15 will try and get you into a Boom and Zoom fight which there is nothing better at it than the F-15 but that tactic doesn't really work so well anymore with fighter against fighter.

What the Zero lacked was speed. All the USN and USAAF had to do is to keep their speed above 300 mph and the Zero couldn't touch them.
BTW, the P-39 appears to have been a capable fighter, especially in the hands of Soviet pilots.
...
The Bell P-39 Airacobra is a fighter produced by Bell Aircraft for the United States Army Air Forces during World War II. It was one of the principal American fighters in service when the United States entered combat. The P-39 was used by the Soviet Air Force, and enabled individual Soviet pilots to collect the highest number of kills attributed to any U.S. fighter type flown by any air force in any conflict.[N 2] Other major users of the type included the Free French, the Royal Air Force, and the Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force.[4]
....
 

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