Can Paris summit save two-state solution?

[Phoenall]

The only problem is, they are still not Palestinians. According to the Ottoman census, (if I am remembering this right), more than half of non-jewish population of Palestine were recent immigrants.

The best illustration of this is an example of two men who immigrated into the territory (now part of Area C) in the late 1920's and early 1930's. They bought plots of land, essentially side-by-side, worked it and passed it down through their children to the present day.

One of these men, and all his descendants, is considered a foreign invader; a settler (now a dirty word); a thief and a liar; some have even called him and his descendants a cancer growing on the land.

The other man, and all his descendants, is considered a "Palestinian" with full and inalienable rights to the land.

Both immigrated from outside the territory, neither had parents or grandparents or great-grandparents living on that land, neither practiced Islam. The only difference between them is that one of these men is a Jew.

Has anyone said that the ROR only applies to Palestinian Muslims and Christians.

I think all people have a ROR.

We are not discussing the RoR in this case. We are discussing people being understood and treated differently based on their being Jewish or not. We are discussing a fundamental inequality, not only under the law but under the rules of society.

Address that.

So, who are treating Jews differently?

You and the rest of the islamonazi stooges

 

[Eloy]

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts. The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct. Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)? Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.

I have no problem understanding that there might be a need for some land swaps but not to account for population shifts because this would mean all the illegal settlements deep in the occupied territories. It would be impossible to get agreement from the Israelis who have annexed the entire city of Jerusalem. I do not know about Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah but, again, if they are deep in the West Bank then it would be for the state of Palestine to protect these but this is what the discussions should address.

Again arguing for Jewish heritage to be in the hands of Arabs has proven unproductive and destructive though decades of experience, a wide range of evidence already provided.

Bottom line - common sense tells Israelis need concrete guarantees.
Otherwise all this is just criticism and speculation targeting only one side.

I can see your refusal to cooperate with a Palestinian state.

Let me understand- the fact that I demand guarantees for a contract means I refuse to cooperate?

This is a very radical approach, actually showing how one side will grasp at anything to avoid an agreement.

No, your brazen use of the terminology Judah and Sumeria while pretending that there is not already a de facto annexation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, demonstrates the Israeli unwillingness to have any discussion of a two-state solution to the Israeli problem with Palestinians.

 

[Eloy]

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

1. This deflection doesn't even deserve an answer.
Do You know history at all? Look up the expulsion from France, Engalnd, the Inquisition, Cossacs in Ukraine... the list is long.

First Europeans expellkd Jews from Judea to Europe, then again from Europe, now the Europeans want to expel Jews from Judea Samaria.

2.This is a basic racist argument for the discrimination against Jews:
"Jews are European not Semitic"- then why did the Europeans invent the term 'anti- SEMITISM'? Why do Russians call Jews 'Hebrews'?

3. This isn't an argument but a political slogan.
Arabic is an official Israeli language, Israeli Arabs are strongly represented in the Parliament and elsewhere. Proof is overwhelming.
However no Palestinian Jew is even allowed to live in Gaza or PA, to the extent that anyone selling land to a Jew is sentenced to execution.

4. Sure it looks different from Your loan somewhere in the west.
However common sense and clear data dictate that the representative bodies of the international community have priorities of their own, based on the experience of recent interventions.

Your thinking and version of history in contradiction to facts is the reason the Israelis will never enter into serious dialog with Palestinians for a solution solution to the Israeli problem with a two-state solution.

Again not an argument.
Can You base anything You say in concrete data?

On the contrary, I have made the argument that Palestinian direct discussions with the Israelis which the Paris summit called for is a non-starter.

 

[Phoenall]

And they should. It is rightfully Israeli land.

Plus, if you attack Israel, you should have your house bulldozed.

They do not need to attack so called Israel. The root of Israel's settler colonialism is to get rid of the Palestinians and move in illegal Israeli settlers. What the Palestinians do or do not do does not change Israel's standard policy.

I think that does happen sometimes.

I haven't seen nearly as much proof of this, as claimed, but I think it does happen now and then.

Israel hasn't been given much reason to work with the Palestinian authority, and Hamas is a terrorist organization at heart.

So naturally it's difficult to get building permits approved. Thus many buildings are built without permit or property right. Which then causes those buildings to be demolished.

However, this is the land of Israel. It is rightfully Israeli land.

The Bible has predicted this for thousands on thousands of years. You need to either be Israeli citizens, and live under Israeli law... or leave. You are not going to win this fight. I promise you.

Forget the Bible. Establishing a Jewish state in the middle of Arab land has caused all the bloodshed. The land is rightfully Arab regardless of the Biblical myths. By going one step further and occupying the West Bank and blockading Gaza, the Israelis went one step too far. The world has had its fill of the half century brutal occupation and if the two-state solution is not saved then neither will Israel even as a pretended democracy. It is probably too late for the Paris conference to day to do anything.

And yet everything written down for thousands of years, is coming true in explicit detail.

But ok, lets look beyond that.

By what logic is the land 'rightfully' Arab? They are new to the land. Newer than the Jews who have been in the land for over 3,000 years. In fact they are the only group of people who have been in the land consistently since 1,500 BC.

Moreover, the Arabs have tons of land.
View attachment 106779

If the Jews don't have a rightful claim to the land, then what exactly would give you a rightful claim?
If Israel isn't the right place for the Jews, then where would you suggest?

It would be hard for me to imagine any other group, when any greater established claim, with a greater body of evidence to support that claim, than the Jews on Israel.

The native American Indians have a far less established claim on America, than the Jews do on Israel, because the native Americans didn't have nearly the amount of recorded and examinable history.

Every time Jewish history says there is a city at X spot, they go and dig, and find a city. Every time the Bible or some other book, says there is a civilization or people group at such and such location, they dig there and find it.

Originally, in 1917 when the move towards a national homeland for the Jews was first pushed, many Arabs around the world agreed with this. After all, a brief history of 'Palestine' shows that barely 300,000 people lived there, the land was desolate and empty, with spare populations. Jerusalem itself was empty of people, comparable to China's now infamous ghost cities.

The Arabs at that time showed the same mentality that left-wingers today have. If it is worthless and ruined, they don't want it. Until someone shows up, and starts making money off it, then they want to control it, regulate it, and tax it.

When Israel was deserted, and turning into desert and swamp land, they didn't have a problem with the Jews coming back to Palestine.

Then when the Jews did start coming back, the economy started to grow, and the land became valuable, suddenly Arabs started migrating to Palestine, and suddenly maybe we don't want these Jews coming here.

There's a reason why the non-jewish population in Israel not only didn't increase, but fell between the 1500s, and the 1880s. The land was ruined (just as the Bible said it would be), and the non-Jews didn't want it.

The Jews on the other hand continued in the land forever.

Additionally, when the Jews started coming back in large numbers, they started working the land, and repairing the infrastructure. Suddenly the Arabs which had been neglecting the land, now that the Jews made it worth something, started flooding into Palestine.

Now after the Jews start making the land worth something again, magically all these Arabs show up, call themselves Palestinians, and claim they have a right to the land?

Sounds like opportunistic thievery to me.

Your post is too long to address every point but I can comment in two.
1) No one is arguing that there were no Jews in Palestine but the area was overwhelmingly Arab during the time of the great immigration of European Jews after the Second World War.
2) America took in Jews where they did very well and it seems to be a country that would welcome them away from all the history of the Final Solution.

The Paris Conference today was about getting Israel to accept Palestine as a state.

According to the hate sites you frequent

Not at first, and it was when the Jews proved they could make America great that the doors were opened


BULLSHIT it was a paper exercise to see just who sides with the arab muslim terrorists

 

[rylah]

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

From 1:46...


There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

 

[Eloy]

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

My family, from both sides, WERE expelled from Europe, for all intents and purposes. When Poland was divided between Germany and Russia, the Russians deported my mom's family to freezing Siberia. After the war, my mom's family returned to Poland, but there were pogroms against the Jews there, because the Poles blamed the Jews for what the Germans did to them. My mom's family then tried to get visas to America but they were denied (it's much easier today). So they went to the one place where Jews are always welcome--Israel. My dad's entire family in Poland--parents, 2 sisters and a brother--were killed by the Germans. My dad managed to escape to Russia. After the war, he was placed in a Displaced Person's camp in Germany. He married his first wife there, and they were able to get visas to America. After living in America for awhile and divorcing his first wife, my dad visited Israel. He met and married my mom there, and brought her to America.

The sad story of your family is not uncommon for many Jews. The anti-Jewish attitudes of the Catholic Poles during the war is not as well-known as it should be and the word pogrom is itself Russian. It is perfectly understandable that, at that post-war time East European Jews would want to leave for the sake of peace. It is an irony that Jews are safe now in the European Union while the occupation of Palestine causes a security problem for them nowadays. It is a wonder that Jews living comfortably in the United States did not do more to welcome European Jews when they needed refuge.

Today, anti-Jewish incidents in Europe, though rare and relatively minor, are condemned by all responsible governments and political parties and are almost entirely in reaction to the occupation and Israeli massacres of Palestinians in Gaza, and likely perpetrated by Muslim immigrants. It is a shame that they happen at all.

While European governments advocate for the right of Palestinians to their state, and some have gone as far as recognizing the state of Palestine, there is an acceptance of Jews as citizens of the European Union without any reservation, equal in all manner to any other citizens.

 

[Eloy]

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

One way to solve the Jewish problem with Palestinians is not to heed the ignorant codswallop of a Palestinian Mufti but between men and women of reason and compassion to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people now under Israeli blockade and occupation to have their own state and live in peace as well as their claims on the land of their birth and that of their fathers.

 

[rylah]

There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts. The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct. Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)? Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.

I have no problem understanding that there might be a need for some land swaps but not to account for population shifts because this would mean all the illegal settlements deep in the occupied territories. It would be impossible to get agreement from the Israelis who have annexed the entire city of Jerusalem. I do not know about Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah but, again, if they are deep in the West Bank then it would be for the state of Palestine to protect these but this is what the discussions should address.

Again arguing for Jewish heritage to be in the hands of Arabs has proven unproductive and destructive though decades of experience, a wide range of evidence already provided.

Bottom line - common sense tells Israelis need concrete guarantees.
Otherwise all this is just criticism and speculation targeting only one side.

I can see your refusal to cooperate with a Palestinian state.

Let me understand- the fact that I demand guarantees for a contract means I refuse to cooperate?

This is a very radical approach, actually showing how one side will grasp at anything to avoid an agreement.

No, your brazen use of the terminology Judah and Sumeria while pretending that there is not already a de facto annexation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, demonstrates the Israeli unwillingness to have any discussion of a two-state solution to the Israeli problem with Palestinians.

Calling Jerusalem 'Al Quds' and Hebron 'al Halil' doesn't bother You.

 

[rylah]

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

One way to solve the Jewish problem with Palestinians is not to heed the ignorant codswallop of a Palestinian Mufti but between men and women of reason and compassion to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people now under Israeli blockade and occupation to have their own state and live in peace as well as their claims on the land of their birth and that of their fathers.

Don't You see something missing here?

I've started with the notion that ALL Palestinian demands are met.
And asked what would happen next.
All I've been reading since are only demands towards Israeli side.

 

[rylah]

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

One way to solve the Jewish problem with Palestinians is not to heed the ignorant codswallop of a Palestinian Mufti but between men and women of reason and compassion to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people now under Israeli blockade and occupation to have their own state and live in peace as well as their claims on the land of their birth and that of their fathers.

Thank You for pointing out that it's a Jewish problem with Palestinians, not a political one. This is more accurate regarding the history of Palestine.

One cannot disregard the words of the Palestinian Mufti and his son heading the same position today and dictating much of the Palestinian agenda.

 

[montelatici]

That any Palestinian objected to the conquest and colonization of Palestine when it initiated by the British on behalf of the Euroepan Jews, including the Palestinian leadership at the time, is a natural response any people would have. Why do you find it surprising , or wrong?

 

[Hollie]

That any Palestinian objected to the conquest and colonization of Palestine when it initiated by the British on behalf of the Euroepan Jews, including the Palestinian leadership at the time, is a natural response any people would have. Why do you find it surprising , or wrong?

It's odd, but stereotypical, that you rattle on with your silly conquest ™ and invasion nonsense when no such occurrences are in the historical (in your case, the hysterical), record.

Rather than continually cutting and pasting the same nonsensical paragraphs, why not support your otherwise pointless propaganda with facts?

 

[Eloy]

I have no problem understanding that there might be a need for some land swaps but not to account for population shifts because this would mean all the illegal settlements deep in the occupied territories. It would be impossible to get agreement from the Israelis who have annexed the entire city of Jerusalem. I do not know about Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah but, again, if they are deep in the West Bank then it would be for the state of Palestine to protect these but this is what the discussions should address.

Again arguing for Jewish heritage to be in the hands of Arabs has proven unproductive and destructive though decades of experience, a wide range of evidence already provided.

Bottom line - common sense tells Israelis need concrete guarantees.
Otherwise all this is just criticism and speculation targeting only one side.

I can see your refusal to cooperate with a Palestinian state.

Let me understand- the fact that I demand guarantees for a contract means I refuse to cooperate?

This is a very radical approach, actually showing how one side will grasp at anything to avoid an agreement.

No, your brazen use of the terminology Judah and Sumeria while pretending that there is not already a de facto annexation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, demonstrates the Israeli unwillingness to have any discussion of a two-state solution to the Israeli problem with Palestinians.

Calling Jerusalem 'Al Quds' and Hebron 'al Halil' doesn't bother You.

I have learned to live with countries changing the names of cities. St. Petersburg became Petrograd then Leningrad, then St. Petersburg again. What people call their own cities makes no difference to me.

 

[Eloy]

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

One way to solve the Jewish problem with Palestinians is not to heed the ignorant codswallop of a Palestinian Mufti but between men and women of reason and compassion to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people now under Israeli blockade and occupation to have their own state and live in peace as well as their claims on the land of their birth and that of their fathers.

Don't You see something missing here?

I've started with the notion that ALL Palestinian demands are met.
And asked what would happen next.
All I've been reading since are only demands towards Israeli side.

One thing at a time. Predicting the future is harder than understanding the present.

 

[Eloy]

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

One way to solve the Jewish problem with Palestinians is not to heed the ignorant codswallop of a Palestinian Mufti but between men and women of reason and compassion to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people now under Israeli blockade and occupation to have their own state and live in peace as well as their claims on the land of their birth and that of their fathers.

Thank You for pointing out that it's a Jewish problem with Palestinians, not a political one. This is more accurate regarding the history of Palestine.

One cannot disregard the words of the Palestinian Mufti and his son heading the same position today and dictating much of the Palestinian agenda.

The Jewish problem with Palestinians causes brutal suffering for the Palestinian people. You are right that it is not political. It is more a problem of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. As long as the Israelis oppress the Palestinians and stop them having their own state as the international community recommends, they nullify their own sovereignty.

 

[Phoenall]

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

My family, from both sides, WERE expelled from Europe, for all intents and purposes. When Poland was divided between Germany and Russia, the Russians deported my mom's family to freezing Siberia. After the war, my mom's family returned to Poland, but there were pogroms against the Jews there, because the Poles blamed the Jews for what the Germans did to them. My mom's family then tried to get visas to America but they were denied (it's much easier today). So they went to the one place where Jews are always welcome--Israel. My dad's entire family in Poland--parents, 2 sisters and a brother--were killed by the Germans. My dad managed to escape to Russia. After the war, he was placed in a Displaced Person's camp in Germany. He married his first wife there, and they were able to get visas to America. After living in America for awhile and divorcing his first wife, my dad visited Israel. He met and married my mom there, and brought her to America.

The sad story of your family is not uncommon for many Jews. The anti-Jewish attitudes of the Catholic Poles during the war is not as well-known as it should be and the word pogrom is itself Russian. It is perfectly understandable that, at that post-war time East European Jews would want to leave for the sake of peace. It is an irony that Jews are safe now in the European Union while the occupation of Palestine causes a security problem for them nowadays. It is a wonder that Jews living comfortably in the United States did not do more to welcome European Jews when they needed refuge.

Today, anti-Jewish incidents in Europe, though rare and relatively minor, are condemned by all responsible governments and political parties and are almost entirely in reaction to the occupation and Israeli massacres of Palestinians in Gaza, and likely perpetrated by Muslim immigrants. It is a shame that they happen at all.

While European governments advocate for the right of Palestinians to their state, and some have gone as far as recognizing the state of Palestine, there is an acceptance of Jews as citizens of the European Union without any reservation, equal in all manner to any other citizens.

DEFLECTION because you cant answer without proving it is a racist thing. It is a world wide action by neo Nazi's who want to see the Jews wiped out. I did not realise that you were Polish were real Nazism fermented and created the death camps

 

[RoccoR]

Eloy, et al,

The Arab Palestinians endured "brutal suffering" because they shot themselves in the foot.

The Jewish problem with Palestinians causes brutal suffering for the Palestinian people. You are right that it is not political. It is more a problem of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. As long as the Israelis oppress the Palestinians and stop them having their own state as the international community recommends, they nullify their own sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

I think, if you check your history, the Arab Palestinians rejected their own state as the international community recommended.

UNITED NATIONS PALESTINE COMMISSION First Special Report to the Security Council:
The Problem of Security in Palestine A/AC.21/9 S/676 16 February 1948
6. The Secretary-General has been informed by the Arab Higher Committee that is determined to persist in its rejection of the partition plan and in its refusal to recognize the resolution of the Assembly and “anything deriving therefrom”. The Subsequent communication of 6 February to the Secretary-General from the representative of the Arab Higher Committee set forth the following conclusions of the Arab Higher Committee Delegation:

“a. The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

“b. The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power or group of powers to establish a Jewish State in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense by force.

c. It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said commission.

d. The United Nations or its commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

e. The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

f. The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

g. The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.

“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child.​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.
There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

One way to solve the Jewish problem with Palestinians is not to heed the ignorant codswallop of a Palestinian Mufti but between men and women of reason and compassion to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people now under Israeli blockade and occupation to have their own state and live in peace as well as their claims on the land of their birth and that of their fathers.

So that is all you pro pali's out of the picture, GOOD now the real adults can get back to sorting the trouble out

 

[Eloy]

Eloy, et al,

The Arab Palestinians endured "brutal suffering" because they shot themselves in the foot.

The Jewish problem with Palestinians causes brutal suffering for the Palestinian people. You are right that it is not political. It is more a problem of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. As long as the Israelis oppress the Palestinians and stop them having their own state as the international community recommends, they nullify their own sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

I think, if you check your history, the Arab Palestinians rejected their own state as the international community recommended.

UNITED NATIONS PALESTINE COMMISSION First Special Report to the Security Council:
The Problem of Security in Palestine A/AC.21/9 S/676 16 February 1948
6. The Secretary-General has been informed by the Arab Higher Committee that is determined to persist in its rejection of the partition plan and in its refusal to recognize the resolution of the Assembly and “anything deriving therefrom”. The Subsequent communication of 6 February to the Secretary-General from the representative of the Arab Higher Committee set forth the following conclusions of the Arab Higher Committee Delegation:

“a. The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

“b. The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power or group of powers to establish a Jewish State in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense by force.

c. It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said commission.

d. The United Nations or its commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

e. The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

f. The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

g. The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.

“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child.​

Most Respectfully,
R

That was then, this is now.

 

[montelatici]

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

A peasant who's kids were born on a land belonging to a Shekih in Lebanon or a Turk does not become automatically the owner.
The Palestinian Mufti himself recognized the sales of the lands and the Hamas leadership itself recognizes that Palestinians are from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

From 1:46...


There were thousands of Palestinian Jews before Zionism who were expelled from Hebron, Gaza, Nablus and Acre numerous times.

How should we settle this dillema?

No there were not, that's just a bunch of Zionist propaganda. There were no Jews at all in Palestine until the Muslim conquest in 638 AD, and the Jews that accompanied the Muslims as invaders were not from Palestine. The Jews from Spain that came after 1492 were also not from Palestine. And of course, the European Zionists were not from Palestine and were Europeans (genetically) that practiced Judaism with little to no ancestral ties to the area.

The Palestinians (who were practiced Christianity and Islam by the time the European Zionists initiated their invasion) are the only indigenous people of the area having remained there throughout the past 3,000 years under a succession of ruling regimes, converting to the religion of the rulers, as required or convenient.

Let's stick to the facts rather than to Zionist fantasies.