Can Paris summit save two-state solution?

[Lipush]

Surprisingly, 'Paris' brought nothing new and Israeli diplomats didn't waste any time attending this toothless committee.

 

[rylah]

Palestinians get all they want. Whats next?
Please describe how You see the development of the region and the Jews in it.

Oh! Please. Palestinians are not apes in a zoo who are satisfied with some bananas. "get all they want" indeed.
Palestinians want a state of their own in their homeland.

How I see the region developing? One of two ways:
Option 1 The Israelis stop their obstruction to a Palestinian state and a change of heart to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinian people. This option is ruled-out by Zionists.
Option 2 The Israelis will continue the occupation and eventually annex all of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem with Reservations for Palestinians under an apartheid system. Israel will be like their old allies, the "Europeans" of Apartheid South Africa.

All I asked was what happens next, when Palestinians get ALL their preconditions and new conditions. Is there Israel, Jerusalem as Jewish capital, can the Jews pray at The Temple Mount, what happens to other minorities?

And I'm still interested in an answer.

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

 

[rylah]

All I asked was what happens next, when Palestinians get ALL their preconditions and new conditions. Is there Israel, Jerusalem as Jewish capital, can the Jews pray at The Temple Mount, what happens to other minorities?

And I'm still interested in an answer.

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts. The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct. Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)? Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.

I have no problem understanding that there might be a need for some land swaps but not to account for population shifts because this would mean all the illegal settlements deep in the occupied territories. It would be impossible to get agreement from the Israelis who have annexed the entire city of Jerusalem. I do not know about Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah but, again, if they are deep in the West Bank then it would be for the state of Palestine to protect these but this is what the discussions should address.

Again arguing for Jewish heritage to be in the hands of Arabs has proven unproductive and destructive though decades of experience, a wide range of evidence already provided.

Bottom line - common sense tells Israelis need concrete guarantees.
Otherwise all this is just criticism and speculation targeting only one side.

 

[Coyote]

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

 

[Eloy]

Eloy, et al,

Well, you are confusing types of sovereignty. There is, of course the sovereignty of a person that is associated with the characteristic of adulthood and the ability to make decisions about one’s destiny. But the Sovereignty we are talking about here is a matter of authority; it is not a matter of mere authority, but of supreme authority.

Statehood is not just the matter of magic, Poof! It’s a state. Ad one of the characteristic of a State is territory; which is not just a matter of saying, that territory is mine. It is a matter of extending sovereign authority over it.

The holder of sovereignty is superior to all authorities under its purview. Supremacy, too, is endemic to modernity. During the Middle Ages, manifold authorities held some sort of legal warrant for their authority, whether feudal, canonical, or otherwise, but very rarely did such warrant confer supremacy.

A final ingredient of sovereignty is territoriality, also a feature of political authority in modernity. Territoriality is a principle by which members of a community are to be defined. It specifies that their membership derives from their residence within borders. It is a powerful principle, for it defines membership in a way that may not correspond with identity. The borders of a sovereign state may not at all circumscribe a “people” or a “nation,” and may in fact encompass several of these identities, as national self-determination and irredentist movements make evident. It is rather by simple virtue of their location within geographic borders that people belong to a state and fall under the authority of its ruler. It is within a geographic territory that modern sovereigns are supremely authoritative.
SOURCE: 1. A Definition of Sovereignty
​

Or, in thumbnail terms: “Sovereignty, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. The concept of sovereignty—one of the most controversial ideas in political science and international law—is closely related to the difficult concepts of state and government and of independence and democracy. Derived from the Latin term superanus through the French term souveraineté, sovereignty was originally meant to be the equivalent of supreme power. However, in practice it often has departed from this traditional meaning.” (WRITTEN BY: The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica )

State sovereignty legal definition of State sovereignty
legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/State+sovereignty
Definition of State sovereignty in the Legal Dictionary - by Free online English dictionary and encyclopedia. What is State sovereignty?
​

Your post is too long for me to answer.

In your comment you wrote:
"The idea behind self-determination is at issue. The people of any given state, once the sovereignty is established, have the right to determine the nature and character of their country."

You appear to be suggesting that sovereignty comes after a state exists but this is seldom the case when it comes to a demand for the right of self-determination. People who call for self-determination are usually a minority in a state. It is not only a state that has sovereignty but also a people.

(COMMENT)

The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) can claim this or that is their territory. But their claim is somewhat illegitimate in that the HoAP never had sovereignty over the territory in question.

In order to say that a state exists ... it is enough that this territory has a sufficient consistency, even though its boundaries have not yet been accurately delimited, and that the state actually exercises independent public authority over that territory. (Law and National Security:Selected Issues Pnina Sharvit Baruch and Anat Kurz, Editors)

Rocco has this thing about sovereign states. Actually sovereignty belongs to the people. (The people of the place. Not people from someplace else.) Governments and states are the result of the exercise of their sovereignty not prerequisites. Preventing people the right to exercise their sovereignty is a crime against those people.

(COMMENT)

I think you are confused as to what "sovereignty" mean, relative to a political entity; or what it means when the say "sovereignty in person" relative to a state.

The bottom line is, that if an authority (or would be authority) cannot claim authority over the territory, it is not a state. If someone else exercises authority over the territory, then it was never theirs to begin with.

In fact, with the exception of Area "A", there is a huge question if the State of Palestine actually ever existed. Hence, one of the reasons they want Israel to relinquish control; and one of the reasons why the 1988 State of Palestine was only granted observer status.

Most Respectfully,
R

Your post is too long for me to answer every point but you are mistaken if you believe there is no national sovereignty without a state of its own.

 

[Eloy]

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts. The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct. Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)? Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.

I have no problem understanding that there might be a need for some land swaps but not to account for population shifts because this would mean all the illegal settlements deep in the occupied territories. It would be impossible to get agreement from the Israelis who have annexed the entire city of Jerusalem. I do not know about Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah but, again, if they are deep in the West Bank then it would be for the state of Palestine to protect these but this is what the discussions should address.

Again arguing for Jewish heritage to be in the hands of Arabs has proven unproductive and destructive though decades of experience, a wide range of evidence already provided.

Bottom line - common sense tells Israelis need concrete guarantees.
Otherwise all this is just criticism and speculation targeting only one side.

I can see your refusal to cooperate with a Palestinian state.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

This is an often difficult concept and often confused.

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

(COMMENT)

Article 6 - Genocide
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
​

Ethnic cleansing—the use of force or intimidation to remove people of a certain ethnic or religious group from a given territory, is more associated with Article 7 - Crimes against Humanity. Article 7 is where "ethnic" issue are generally handled.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

This is an often difficult concept and often confused.

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

(COMMENT)

Article 6 - Genocide
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
​

Ethnic cleansing—the use of force or intimidation to remove people of a certain ethnic or religious group from a given territory, is more associated with Article 7 - Crimes against Humanity. Article 7 is where "ethnic" issue are generally handled.

Most Respectfully,
R

I agree - though I have to admit, when I was referring to genocide, I was referring to another statement Rhodescholar had made in another thread where he stated "Death to islam, and all who practice that cancerous death cult." - that's pretty genocidal I would think but was not part of this thread.

But expelling all Arab Muslims would surely be ethnic cleansing?

 

[Eloy]

Oh! Please. Palestinians are not apes in a zoo who are satisfied with some bananas. "get all they want" indeed.
Palestinians want a state of their own in their homeland.

How I see the region developing? One of two ways:
Option 1 The Israelis stop their obstruction to a Palestinian state and a change of heart to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinian people. This option is ruled-out by Zionists.
Option 2 The Israelis will continue the occupation and eventually annex all of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem with Reservations for Palestinians under an apartheid system. Israel will be like their old allies, the "Europeans" of Apartheid South Africa.

All I asked was what happens next, when Palestinians get ALL their preconditions and new conditions. Is there Israel, Jerusalem as Jewish capital, can the Jews pray at The Temple Mount, what happens to other minorities?

And I'm still interested in an answer.

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

 

[rhodescholar]

Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII.

How people are still bothering to post to this worthless scumbag when it utters comments like this I cannot fathom.

I've seen stormfronters and other fucking garbage pass through these parts, and this turd is no different - it is just pretending to be "reasonable."

Stop feeding this trolling asshole.

 

[Andylusion]

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

 

[P F Tinmore]

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

These are all SOP for Israel.

 

[Hollie]

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

These are all SOP for Israel.

Actually, those activities describe the actions of the Arab-Moslem world to their unwashed, unwanted brethren, the Arab-Moslem welfare cheats aka the Pal'istanians.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

All I asked was what happens next, when Palestinians get ALL their preconditions and new conditions. Is there Israel, Jerusalem as Jewish capital, can the Jews pray at The Temple Mount, what happens to other minorities?

And I'm still interested in an answer.

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

My family, from both sides, WERE expelled from Europe, for all intents and purposes. When Poland was divided between Germany and Russia, the Russians deported my mom's family to freezing Siberia. After the war, my mom's family returned to Poland, but there were pogroms against the Jews there, because the Poles blamed the Jews for what the Germans did to them. My mom's family then tried to get visas to America but they were denied (it's much easier today). So they went to the one place where Jews are always welcome--Israel. My dad's entire family in Poland--parents, 2 sisters and a brother--were killed by the Germans. My dad managed to escape to Russia. After the war, he was placed in a Displaced Person's camp in Germany. He married his first wife there, and they were able to get visas to America. After living in America for awhile and divorcing his first wife, my dad visited Israel. He met and married my mom there, and brought her to America.

 

[rylah]

All I asked was what happens next, when Palestinians get ALL their preconditions and new conditions. Is there Israel, Jerusalem as Jewish capital, can the Jews pray at The Temple Mount, what happens to other minorities?

And I'm still interested in an answer.

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

1. This deflection doesn't even deserve an answer.
Do You know history at all? Look up the expulsion from France, Engalnd, the Inquisition, Cossacs in Ukraine... the list is long.

First Europeans expellkd Jews from Judea to Europe, then again from Europe, now the Europeans want to expel Jews from Judea Samaria.

2.This is a basic racist argument for the discrimination against Jews:
"Jews are European not Semitic"- then why did the Europeans invent the term 'anti- SEMITISM'? Why do Russians call Jews 'Hebrews'?

3. This isn't an argument but a political slogan.
Arabic is an official Israeli language, Israeli Arabs are strongly represented in the Parliament and elsewhere. Proof is overwhelming.
However no Palestinian Jew is even allowed to live in Gaza or PA, to the extent that anyone selling land to a Jew is sentenced to execution.

4. Sure it looks different from Your loan somewhere in the west.
However common sense and clear data dictate that the representative bodies of the international community have priorities of their own, based on the experience of recent interventions.

 

[Eloy]

Israel does it now because the Arabs are 20% of the population. But if Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza, the Arabs would be 50% of the population, or maybe even higher. They could then vote, G-d forbid, to turn Israel into Palestine.

They will annex both, and do what they've been accused of for decades - they will finally remove the arab muslims and send them back to their native countries - what they should have done in 1967 when the arabs were threatening and attempting to mass murder all of the jews.

The world and the muslim filth will be "aflame" for about 5 years, and then everything will go back to normal.

They're in their native countries already...first you call for muslim genocide, then ethnic cleansing. Make up your mind.

No, all of them, without exception, or immigrant from other lands. They are not natives to the land of Israel.

You can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The non-Israelis will be forced out. One or another, they will leave the land. They will either leave on their own, they will leave by force, or they will die.

That's the only options that they themselves have created for themselves.

They could have been Israeli citizens by now. They choose against that. So they get what they get.

How can someone say of Palestinians that the land where they were born and whose forefathers were born are classed as immigrants when, at the same time, Russian Jews born in Birobidzhan of Russian parents have more of a right to live in that same place now called Israel, it must be asked. It takes some nerve to utter such brazen racism in contradiction to manifest facts. As long as there are Zionists who perpetrate the mythical right of return for Russian Jews to the Holy Land while denying the right of return to native Palestinian refugees to the land of their birth and that of there forefathers, there will be a brand of Israeli injustice poisoning the Holy Land.

 

[rylah]

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

There has to be some land swaps to account for population shifts. The 1967 lines aren't sacrosanct. Anyway Eloy, what should be the situation with Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah (where Abraham lies)? Joseph's Tomb has already been set on fire by the Arabs many times.

I have no problem understanding that there might be a need for some land swaps but not to account for population shifts because this would mean all the illegal settlements deep in the occupied territories. It would be impossible to get agreement from the Israelis who have annexed the entire city of Jerusalem. I do not know about Joseph's and Rachel's Tombs and the Cave of Machpelah but, again, if they are deep in the West Bank then it would be for the state of Palestine to protect these but this is what the discussions should address.

Again arguing for Jewish heritage to be in the hands of Arabs has proven unproductive and destructive though decades of experience, a wide range of evidence already provided.

Bottom line - common sense tells Israelis need concrete guarantees.
Otherwise all this is just criticism and speculation targeting only one side.

I can see your refusal to cooperate with a Palestinian state.

Let me understand- the fact that I demand guarantees for a contract means I refuse to cooperate?

This is a very radical approach, actually showing how one side will grasp at anything to avoid an agreement.

 

[Eloy]

If a two-state solution is agreed instead of a one-state Israel, then it should be possible for the Israelis to live in peace with their nearest neighbors, the Palestinians. After all, it is convenient for the Israelis to have the uncritical backing of the USA but even American Jews are getting on with their lives successfully way over in the USA. They are not in the Middle East and they can therefore act irresponsibly. For the Jews who are in Israel, for all their longing for a European culture (which is not particularly Jewish), they have left Europe and wanting to have a European colony among Semites is quite a dream. So, for those Jews in Israel, it makes sense to live in peace with Palestinians and quit the occupation. Israel has treaties with other close neighbors such as Egypt and Jordan.

For this to happen, overcoming all the bad will generated by decades of massacre and occupation, summary executions, and demolitions, Israel will need to go the extra mile and do something about the right of return of Palestinian refugees and accept that Jerusalem is a cherished city by Christians and Muslims alike. The Jews cannot have it all. Best would be for Jerusalem to be an open city for all faiths and under international or Israeli/Palestinian care with both having their capitals there.

Can Israel be a Jewish state and remain a democracy with equal rights for all? That all depends on what is meant by "Jewish". If it means having gay nightlife in Tel Aviv, singing in Hebrew in the Eurovision Song Contest, and having the Star of David on a flag, then what's the harm. If it means that minorities in Israel are to continue with a second class citizenship, well, you have a problem there.

I have answered your questions as best I can although I concede my vision is a dream.

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

1. This deflection doesn't even deserve an answer.
Do You know history at all? Look up the expulsion from France, Engalnd, the Inquisition, Cossacs in Ukraine... the list is long.

First Europeans expellkd Jews from Judea to Europe, then again from Europe, now the Europeans want to expel Jews from Judea Samaria.

2.This is a basic racist argument for the discrimination against Jews:
"Jews are European not Semitic"- then why did the Europeans invent the term 'anti- SEMITISM'? Why do Russians call Jews 'Hebrews'?

3. This isn't an argument but a political slogan.
Arabic is an official Israeli language, Israeli Arabs are strongly represented in the Parliament and elsewhere. Proof is overwhelming.
However no Palestinian Jew is even allowed to live in Gaza or PA, to the extent that anyone selling land to a Jew is sentenced to execution.

4. Sure it looks different from Your loan somewhere in the west.
However common sense and clear data dictate that the representative bodies of the international community have priorities of their own, based on the experience of recent interventions.

Your thinking and version of history in contradiction to facts is the reason the Israelis will never enter into serious dialog with Palestinians for a solution solution to the Israeli problem with a two-state solution.

 

[Phoenall]

The only problem is, they are still not Palestinians. According to the Ottoman census, (if I am remembering this right), more than half of non-jewish population of Palestine were recent immigrants.

The best illustration of this is an example of two men who immigrated into the territory (now part of Area C) in the late 1920's and early 1930's. They bought plots of land, essentially side-by-side, worked it and passed it down through their children to the present day.

One of these men, and all his descendants, is considered a foreign invader; a settler (now a dirty word); a thief and a liar; some have even called him and his descendants a cancer growing on the land.

The other man, and all his descendants, is considered a "Palestinian" with full and inalienable rights to the land.

Both immigrated from outside the territory, neither had parents or grandparents or great-grandparents living on that land, neither practiced Islam. The only difference between them is that one of these men is a Jew.

Has anyone said that the ROR only applies to Palestinian Muslims and Christians.

I think all people have a ROR.

And I know that no one has a legal right of return. and I have proven this to you many times in the past. It is only legal if the nation applying it has it on its law books.

This has nothing to do with the right of return, it is all to do with who see's what, when and where.


Why do you see the non Jew as a citizen of palestine and the Jew as an illegal settler ?

 

[rylah]

All I see here is what Israel has to do and what Jews are...mixed with same racist ideas...

Can You simplify?

I understood that the You last conditions are: RoR and Palestinian capital in Jerusalem (which part?)
Please be more specific about any conditions for Palestinians.

I answered your questions as best I can. I told you this. But you accuse me of having racist ideas. I don't know what else I can write or how to simplify what I already wrote. I suppose I could put some things another way but I dare not try.

The Paris Conference called for two states along the 1967 ceasefire line or border. This has been the recommendation of the international community for decades. It makes sense to me, sorry.

1.Let me balance it a bit with simple facts- no melodrama.
Israel is comprised of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, Europe and Asia. The Israeli culture is actually a melting pot of influences, as the area has always been under Jewish control. You Just forget that a lot of what You call "European culture" is actually Judeo-Christian.
If a culture is measured high in modernity it doesn't automatically mean a European influence.

This is untrue. Russian Jews today are not being expelled. Neither were the European Jews who left Europe of their own will after WWII. Jews in the illegal settlements of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not being expelled from Queens, New York.

2. Suggesting that Jews aren't Semites in order to justify more anti Jewish ethnic cleansing in Judea Samaria is exactly a racist argument. The same language was used by Spanish, German, Russian and Arab countries to discriminate and expel Jews, only in those times they were called Semites, Hebrews or Judeans. Now You suggest Israel can't be Jewish as Spain Spanish, Greece Greek or Armenia Armenian.

Most Jews today are not Semitic but European.

3. Minorities who have Israeli citizenship have equal rights just like in any modern western country. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs are and they enjoy the same rights.
In reality it's the Jews who're discriminated against at the holy sites, in favor of security.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in their homeland.

Bottom line, the international community outside ME is still a hostage of the Arab Oil and itself is facing a serious demographic/immigrant crisis that can change the face a whole continent. Their small scale experiments in Kosovo and Oslo agreements have already shown their fruits.
Compared to Israel - they're 70 behind in dealing with such a dilemma.
There's no reason to put their "recommendation" in higher priorities than the wellbeing if Israelis.

Your view accurately reflects the Israeli position.

1. This deflection doesn't even deserve an answer.
Do You know history at all? Look up the expulsion from France, Engalnd, the Inquisition, Cossacs in Ukraine... the list is long.

First Europeans expellkd Jews from Judea to Europe, then again from Europe, now the Europeans want to expel Jews from Judea Samaria.

2.This is a basic racist argument for the discrimination against Jews:
"Jews are European not Semitic"- then why did the Europeans invent the term 'anti- SEMITISM'? Why do Russians call Jews 'Hebrews'?

3. This isn't an argument but a political slogan.
Arabic is an official Israeli language, Israeli Arabs are strongly represented in the Parliament and elsewhere. Proof is overwhelming.
However no Palestinian Jew is even allowed to live in Gaza or PA, to the extent that anyone selling land to a Jew is sentenced to execution.

4. Sure it looks different from Your loan somewhere in the west.
However common sense and clear data dictate that the representative bodies of the international community have priorities of their own, based on the experience of recent interventions.

Your thinking and version of history in contradiction to facts is the reason the Israelis will never enter into serious dialog with Palestinians for a solution solution to the Israeli problem with a two-state solution.

Again not an argument.
Can You base anything You say in concrete data?