Big Powers ' blocking ' New Delhi's UN dream

akiboy

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In an indication that India's pro-U.S tilt was not fetching dividends , Prime Minister Manmohan Singh admitted that " some big powers " were coming in the way of New Delhi's desire to get a permanent seat on the U.N Security Council. Addressing reporters accompanying him on his return trip from the U.K and Finland he also accused " elements in the Pakistani establishemnt " of backing terror in India. Singh who held talks with British , Finnish and EU leaders said there was a growing realisation that India ought to get a permanent seat in the U.N.S.C.
Singh did not name any of the "big powers" but I think its likely to be China and maybe the U.S.
India along with Japan , Brazil and Germany is seeking a permanent seat in the U.N top body. PM Manmohan Singh said that the P-5 does not reflect the present day political realities.


AksHay
 

onedomino

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In an indication that India's pro-U.S tilt was not fetching dividends , Prime Minister Manmohan Singh admitted that " some big powers " were coming in the way of New Delhi's desire to get a permanent seat on the U.N Security Council. Addressing reporters accompanying him on his return trip from the U.K and Finland he also accused " elements in the Pakistani establishemnt " of backing terror in India. Singh who held talks with British , Finnish and EU leaders said there was a growing realisation that India ought to get a permanent seat in the U.N.S.C.
Singh did not name any of the "big powers" but I think its likely to be China and maybe the U.S.
India along with Japan , Brazil and Germany is seeking a permanent seat in the U.N top body. PM Manmohan Singh said that the P-5 does not reflect the present day political realities.


AksHay
India is still paying a political price in the West for decades of support for the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Yeah, it now has a US tilt but that’s because it has no alternative; not because it has any great affinity for America. Certainly it cannot reside in the Chinese camp. We understand that India’s current pro American tilt is a way of counterbalancing China. India has little political capital in the US for several reasons. It is perceived as the low price bidder for many high tech jobs that US corporations cynically place overseas simply to suppress labor costs. In America there is no concept of corporate loyalty to employees, so do not look for it in India. As soon as there is an educated work force available elsewhere that undercuts India’s wage structure, those jobs will flee India just as they did the US. Good luck with that. India is also thought of as the nation that single-handedly destroyed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty after it unnecessarily, and surreptitiously, developed nuclear weapons. Weapons that India did not need in its confrontation with China, and with which, it implicitly threatened Pakistan. Thereby providing the rational for that extremely unstable nation to pursue its own reckless course of secret nuclear weapons acquisition. In turn, Pakistan then spewed its Chinese attained nuke technology to world class shitholes like North Korea and Iran. We really appreciate India getting that insane process started up. Also India sat on the sidelines during both the first Gulf War and Afghanistan and the US remembers the lack of support. Yeah, India will probably get a seat in the UNSC sometime in the future, for whatever that’s worth. But before that happens, India needs to figure out how to resolve its decades long conflict with Pakistan. India needs to show over a significant period of time that it will act responsibly in international affairs, something it did not do for more than 50 years after gaining independence.
 
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akiboy

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Well , I do not agree to most of your views.

Thank god India went nuclear or else we would be suffering from the militancy in Kashmir and repeated attacks by the Pakistani I.S.I. Plus , with China and Maosist rebels on our Eastern front, India would be squeezed. And in the south there is Myanmar which is no friend of ours anyways. You might ask "Why Myanmar" ?? Well , China has a listening station and a naval base there. The Communists like eavesdropping on our nation.
And what guarantee is that China wouldn't help Pakistan to go nuclear??? I mean Pakistan gets all its fuel , reactors and stuff from Beijing. And its CERTAINLY not because of India that countries like Iran and N.K went nuclear.
Its beacuse of A.Q Khan (Who is a Pakistani nuke scientist ) and China!!

As for India being neutral during the Gulf War.. Its because when the world's largest democracy asked America for help in 1962 you didn't help us. When we needed wheat for our people after independance and asked America the U.S Senate took months and months to approve of the bill to send a cargo of wheat into India!!!


And during the Cold War when India tried to get friendly with U.S you gave us a cold shoulder.
The Soviets hepled us. They gave us wheat. We owe some part of our economy to them. Our space program also wasen't encouraged by U.S. Russia helped us. Only in the late 1980's did America help to launch our satellites.
AND WE WERE NEVER WITH THE SOVIETS DURING COLD WAR. WE WERE NON ALIGNED THAT IS WE NEITHER SUPPORTED YOU OR THE COMMUNISTS!!!!

When we went nuclear there was a huge cry from the States. But when Pakistan did the tests you just rebuked them. And after that you started selling them F-16 fighter jets.
Why does U.S see India as a " threat " and not as a friend??? The country which most Indians prefer to immigrate is America. The best place for outsourcing your companies outside N.America is India.

America should realise that India is the ONLY and I say the ONLY country that can keep a tab on China in Asia and maintain the status quo. If India haden't risen militarily the continent of Asia would be full of Communists with nukes.




AksHay
 

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akiboy said:
Well , I do not agree to most of your views.

Thank god India went nuclear or else we would be suffering from the militancy in Kashmir and repeated attacks by the Pakistani I.S.I. Plus , with China and Maosist rebels on our Eastern front, India would be squeezed. And in the south there is Myanmar which is no friend of ours anyways. You might ask "Why Myanmar" ?? Well , China has a listening station and a naval base there. The Communists like eavesdropping on our nation. India did not need nukes for any of that. Each one of the threats you described was non-nuclear.

And what guarantee is that China wouldn't help Pakistan to go nuclear??? I mean Pakistan gets all its fuel , reactors and stuff from Beijing. India is the country that first broke the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, not Pakistan.

And its CERTAINLY not because of India that countries like Iran and N.K went nuclear. No, but it is because of the perceived nuclear threat from India that Pakistan rationalized its development of nukes. Again, it is India that first went nuclear in South Asia, not Pakistan. As I stated above, it was Pakistan that proliferated nuke technology to Iran and NK.Its beacuse of A.Q Khan (Who is a Pakistani nuke scientist ) and China!!

As for India being neutral during the Gulf War.. Its because when the world's largest democracy asked America for help in 1962 you didn't help us. When we needed wheat for our people after independance and asked America the U.S Senate took months and months to approve of the bill to send a cargo of wheat into India!!! India did not help depose the criminal dictator because America did not give it food fast enough 36 years earlier? Any student of history knows that despite the "non-aligned" claim, India's foreign policy for most of the period from independence through the 1980s was firmly in the Soviet camp. It's a matter of historical record..


And during the Cold War when India tried to get friendly with U.S you gave us a cold shoulder. Examples, please. The Soviets hepled us. They gave us wheat. We owe some part of our economy to them. Our space program also wasen't encouraged by U.S. Russia helped us. Only in the late 1980's did America help to launch our satellites. AND WE WERE NEVER WITH THE SOVIETS DURING COLD WAR. WE WERE NON ALIGNED THAT IS WE NEITHER SUPPORTED YOU OR THE COMMUNISTS!!!! That must be why India obtained almost all of its fighter planes and other weapons from the Soviets. India was used as a Soviet tool to help pressure China in the Soviet-Chinese confrontation that occurred during the 60s and 70s. Are you really unaware of this?

When we went nuclear there was a huge cry from the States. But when Pakistan did the tests you just rebuked them. And after that you started selling them F-16 fighter jets. The Pakistani development of nukes was a direct consequence of India's completely unnecessary and unprovoked nuclear weapons program. There is absolutely no foreign policy challenge that has ever faced India that needed to be handled with nukes, or the threat of nukes. Again, it was India, and no one else, that single-handedly rendered the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty meaningless. F-16s? Are you unaware that India is about to buy F-18s of superior capability? Should we take back the offer?

Why does U.S see India as a " threat " and not as a friend??? Could that be because India, with its support of Soviet foreign policy for at least 40 years, did not act like a friend? Could it be because India unnecessarily armed itself with nuclear weapons causing a nuke weapons race in South Asia? Could it be that India’s behavior ignored one of the most important international treaties created since WW2: the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty? But contrary to your assertion above, America does not view India as a direct threat.

The country which most Indians prefer to immigrate is America. The best place for outsourcing your companies outside N.America is India. Do you think that outsourcing is popular in the US? Outsourcing has cost American workers thousands of high value jobs. These jobs have fled the US primarily for India. Aki, outsourcing really upsets most Americans.

America should realise that India is the ONLY and I say the ONLY country that can keep a tab on China in Asia and maintain the status quo. If India haden't risen militarily the continent of Asia would be full of Communists with nukes. No, it is because of India's destruction of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty that South Asia is full of nukes. And India is not the only country that confronts China. What do you think America has been doing for the last 60 years in places like Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam? Places were it received no help from India. If India was so interested in fighting off Chinese communist influence in Asia, why did it do nothing to help America in Vietnam? There were South Korean, Thai, and Australian troops fighting with Americans forces in Korea and Vietnam. Where were the Indians? Of course the reason that India did not help fight the communists in Northeast and Southeast Asia is that their main ally and arms supplier, the Soviets, would not have liked that.

But Aki, most of what we have been discussing occurred in the past, and America is ready to move on. India and the US will develop much better relations then they have had in the past. You asked the question about why the US has not enthusiastically supported India’s UNSC bid. I have given you my opinion. The opinion of others may differ. You can be sure that America will not block India’s UNSC bid at some reasonable time in the future. But no one will support India’s ascendancy to the UNSC when it is still, after decades, essentially at war with its neighbor Pakistan. Do not misunderstand, I realize that there is plenty of blame to go around, and that the India-Pakistan conflict is not all (or even mostly) the fault of India. But the situation remains unresolved, and it needs to conclude in a viable peace treaty before other members of the UNSC will enthusiastically agree to India’s goal to sit permanently on the council.

AksHay
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akiboy

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Thank you for your frank and clear answers to my post.

Firstly , LET me remind you that India DID NOT start the nuclear race in Asia.
It was China. China was the FIRST Asian country to have nukes. They invaded us in 1962. They forced the Dalai Lama to flee Lhasa and seek refuge in India. China crossed the McMahon Line and wanted to occupy the whole Eastern Front of India!!! We tried to fight back , but were weak after 200 years of fighting the Brits. We didn't help you in Vietnam as we ourselves were in dire need of help. There were internal problems to take care of. Pakistan FIRST attacked India right after Independance over Kashmir. If you read Indian history you WILL know that Kashmir BELONGS TO INDIA , HAS BEEN PART OF INDIA SINCE AGES!!! Pakistan has ALWAYS attacked India and not the other way round!!! Pakistani militants crossed the Loc(Line Of Control). As for India going nuclear...India had intelligence that China was helping Pakistan in building nuke reactors and obtaining fuel from them. Also , WHEN China went nuclear India saw the respect that China gained in the eyes of the other nations. I admit we were a bit rash but we were afraid too.
There were problems on ALL our fronts and borders.

As for "Non Alignment " we NEVER , NEVER supported Russia during Korea and Vietnam. We turned to you for help against China and U.S indirectly refused.
India started the Non Alignment movement!!!

As for outsourcing i don't know much about the American oint of view.. But you have to agree ..Indians are contributing to the U.S economy. Where do U.S companies get their raw materials from??? The trade between U.S and India is benficial for both. Even for students no country can beat the educational exchange programs between the U.S and India.

Please do answer this question. Why does the U.S feel that India is responsible for all the shit happening in Asia ?? Why don't they realise that Pak keeps invading India territory repeatedly. Why doesn't the U.S realise that the Paksitani I.S.I is spreading militancy in Kashmir which kills thousnands of innocent Indians and Indian soldiers ???? What about A.Q Khan ..The pakistani rogue scintist who leaked nuke secrets to Libya , N.K and Iran??? India has never attacked any nation!!! Please do refer to any info on this matter. Every war with Pakistan is because of Pakistani invasion. We have never attacked them first over Kashmir (which righfully belongs to us. Again , I say please refer to Ancient Indian history/Geography and you will come to know Kashmir BELONGS to India.)
Even in 1947 when India was partitioned the ruler of Kashmir and its people wanted to be part of India and not Pakistan.


aKSHAY
 
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akiboy

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PS:- I forgot to add. India was NEVER a threat to U.S , IS NOT a threat now and WILL NEVER BE a threat in the future.

India HAS FORGOTTEN THE PAST. India IS ready to move on. India also doesn't like the mess up with Pak. But , after the bomb blasts this year which WERE sponsored by the I.S.I , India got pissed big time. And as long as India remains on this planet IT considers America as an ALLY.


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onedomino

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Thank you for your frank and clear answers to my post.

Firstly , LET me remind you that India DID NOT start the nuclear race in Asia.
That's right. It was the country that started the nuke weapons race with Pakistan. What did India think Pakistan's response would be to the development of Indian nukes? Certainly it realized that Pakistan would respond in kind and attempt to obtain its own nukes. From the vantage point of America it seemed that India did not care that nuke weapons technology proliferated in South Asia. That is why America was so upset when India detonated a nuke thereby revealing it secret program. It was China. China was the FIRST Asian country to have nukes. They invaded us in 1962. Yes, but that did not require an Indian nuclear response. Did you see Japan develop nukes when China did? Do you really think that America, or Russia for that matter, would have let China nuke India without massive retaliation? China would have been completely insane to nuke India. The Chinese are many things, but insane is not one of them. Acquiring nukes did not enhance India's security, but it did start a nuke weapons race with the appallingly unstable Pakistan. And Pakistan was totally irresponsible with its nuke program delivering weapons technology to both NK and Iran, two of the most barbaric regimes in human history. It was India that was indirectly responsible because it gave Pakistan the rational to develop its own nuclear weapons program. Would Pakistan have developed nukes if India had not done so first? We'll never know, will we? They forced the Dalai Lama to flee Lhasa and seek refuge in India. What China did to Tibet is unforgivable. You will not see me defending China's foreign policies. China crossed the McMahon Line and wanted to occupy the whole Eastern Front of India!!! We tried to fight back , but were weak after 200 years of fighting the Brits. We didn't help you in Vietnam as we ourselves were in dire need of help. There were internal problems to take care of. Pakistan FIRST attacked India right after Independence over Kashmir. If you read Indian history you WILL know that Kashmir BELONGS TO INDIA , HAS BEEN PART OF INDIA SINCE AGES!!! Pakistan has ALWAYS attacked India and not the other way round!!! Yes, Pakistan is India's curse. And that is also how they feel about India. The fact remains that neither India or Pakistan has figured out how to deal with the situation, and the low-grade war has been burning for decades. Pakistani militants crossed the Loc(Line Of Control). As for India going nuclear...India had intelligence that China was helping Pakistan in building nuke reactors and obtaining fuel from them. Also, WHEN China went nuclear India saw the respect that China gained in the eyes of the other nations. I admit we were a bit rash but we were afraid too. There were problems on ALL our fronts and borders. Those problems still exist and nukes have offered India no solutions. The Indian-Chinese border is still disputed to this very day. If every country that felt threatened went nuclear, there would be dozens of countries that now possess nukes. "A bit rash," hardly describes it.

As for "Non Alignment " we NEVER , NEVER supported Russia during Korea and Vietnam. We turned to you for help against China and U.S indirectly refused.
India started the Non Alignment movement!!! The fact is that India turned its back on the one significant democracy that was fighting the communists in Asia: America. We did not expect ten divisions of military help from the Indians in either Korea or Vietnam. But we also did not expect zero help either. Even a few hundred token troops would have expressed to the world that India wanted to protect democracy and fight communism. But, as you know, not even a small token force from India ever stood up to the Soviets and Chinese in NK and Vietnam.

As for outsourcing i don't know much about the American oint of view. But you have to agree ..Indians are contributing to the U.S economy. How does undercutting US labor costs, thereby throwing thousands out of work, contribute to the US economy? Clearly outsourcing is not entirely India's fault. US corporations with no concept of employee loyalty are the primary problem. Where do U.S companies get their raw materials from??? The trade between U.S and India is benficial for both. Even for students no country can beat the educational exchange programs between the U.S and India.

Please do answer this question. Why does the U.S feel that India is responsible for all the shit happening in Asia?? The US does not feel that way at all. India's foreign policy over the past few years has significantly improved. Why don't they realise that Pak keeps invading India territory repeatedly. Why doesn't the U.S realise that the Paksitani I.S.I is spreading militancy in Kashmir which kills thousnands of innocent Indians and Indian soldiers ???? What about A.Q Khan ..The pakistani rogue scintist who leaked nuke secrets to Libya , N.K and Iran??? India has never attacked any nation!!! America does not blame India for any of that. Please do refer to any info on this matter. Every war with Pakistan is because of Pakistani invasion. We have never attacked them first over Kashmir (which righfully belongs to us. Again , I say please refer to Ancient Indian history/Geography and you will come to know Kashmir BELONGS to India.) Even in 1947 when India was partitioned the ruler of Kashmir and its people wanted to be part of India and not Pakistan.


aKSHAY
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onedomino

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PS:- I forgot to add. India was NEVER a threat to U.S , IS NOT a threat now and WILL NEVER BE a threat in the future.

India HAS FORGOTTEN THE PAST. India IS ready to move on. India also doesn't like the mess up with Pak. But , after the bomb blasts this year which WERE sponsored by the I.S.I , India got pissed big time. And as long as India remains on this planet IT considers America as an ALLY. That is good because America can be the best friend and ally that India ever had. The bomb blasts were horrible. There is no question that there are fanatical Muslims in Pakistan that are completely out of control. But America is not convinced that these acts were perpetrated by the Pakistan government. Could the Pakistan government do more to control these radical elements? Yes, but the Pakistan government is afraid of losing control of the country if it presses the radicals too hard. They have already tried to kill the President 3 or 4 times. That is no excuse, but it is the reason. And as bad as it is now with Pakistan it would be infinitely worse if the Muslim fanatics had their hands on the nuclear trigger.

Akshay
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akiboy

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Hey One Domino thanks for your reply. Don't think i am trying to piss you off.. I just wanted to express some of my views on your reply.

I think that you didn't get me correctly about India's nuclear decision.
We went nuclear because China was trying to make Pakistan a nuclear state. So , WE HAD to make the BIG decision. The Indian intell. got to know about the CHinese objective and so we conducted our underground tests. Atleast , WE are a responsible nuclear power. Okay , I know WE provoked Pak to go nuclear early. But , I guarantee that Pak WOULD HAVE gone nuclear atleast by the millenium.

As for Japan not going nuclear. Don't worry.. After Kim's missile test It won't be long before Tokyo conducts a test!!! You must know that Japan invaded Manchuria in 1935. Japanese miliatry was at its peak at that time. So, THAT'S why they didn't go nuclear. China WAS NO threat to Japan. But now, China is strong so we may see a nuclear Japan in the coming years.

As for Pakistan.. I won't be surprised IF there is a coup in the future toppling Musharraf from power. I guess both U.S and India wouldn't want a goddamn jihadist running that country. As for the bomb blasts Pakistan WAS behind it. Didn't you hear PM manmohan singh telling Pres. Bush that India was ready to share its evidence with Washington ???


Akshay
 
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akiboy

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PS:- I forgot again. I told you we couldn't help you in Vietnam even if we wanted to. We were busy sorting out the bloody communal mess up in our country. Our Army was almost non-existent. India was in shambles during the 50's and 60's. There was poverty in almost every house in India. What should we have done. Send troops and pour money into Vietnam against the dirty Vietcong when people were dying in our nation??? But , WE never went against you on Vietnam or Korea!!!! Hell , we didn't even support Soviet Union on that issues. We just kind of ..avoided it altogether. And then the Communists attacked us!!!:mad:


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