Backlash?

[Annie]

Links at sites:

http://www.slate.com/id/2138371/&#granmarcha

Saturday, March 25, 2006

Rally Report--Gran Marcha, Gran Backlash! Reader L.N. suggested I had exaggerated the number of Mexican flags at various immigrant protest rallies--maybe demo organizers had wised up to the lesson that flaunting allegiance to a neighboring country was not a good way to make most Americans want to let in more people who share your attachment!** So I went down to today's Gran Marcha against "anti-immigration legislation" in downtown L.A.:

Crowd size: Big! Bigger than a couple of football games--I'd say 200,000 plus. ***

Demeanor: Pleasant!

Makeup: 99 percent Latino (an oversimplification--I saw one T-shirt saying "I'm Mexican, not Latino")

Most telling placard slogan: "Somos illegales, no criminales!"

Flags: Evenly split between Mexican and U.S., with El Salvadoran running a very distant (1%) third. And there were lots of flags. If you said "Mexican flag" every time you saw a Mexican flag, you never stopped talking.

** Q: Why are Mexican flags troubling in a way Italian flags wouldn't be troubling at, say, a Columbus Day rally? Simplest A: Italy's not right next door! ... For more on this issue, see this discussion with Jim Pinkerton. Pinkerton says flatly, "There will be a wall." He's for it. ...

*** Of course the very size of these rallies, when coupled with the pro-illegal immigrant sentiments and the Mexican flags, might hurt the cause of the ralliers. It seems likely to make many non-PC voters think, "Jeez, next year's rally will be even bigger. We'd better build that wall quick!" ...

Update: The Los Angeles Times, in a break with its recent trend toward improvement, fronts an embarrassing 100% PC rally story that mentions the U.S. flags (which marchers were told to bring) in paragraph one and the equally numerous Mexican flags (which marchers apparently decided to bring on their own) in paragraph #10. I used to write this sort of press-releasey "news" account when my college paper assigned me to "cover" anti-war demonstrations that I'd helped organize! (Typical Kaus lede: "Thousands of marching feet filled Post Office Square to protest ..." etc.) The Times' effort is filled with representative quotes from participants, without a note of dissent. Bill Bradley, in New West Notes, jumps on this especially romantic LAT sentence, which was so prized it got its own graf:

The marchers included both longtime residents and the newly arrived, bound by a desire for a better life and a love for this county.

But even the LAT doesn't pretend these were legal immigrants:

Many of the marchers were immigrants themselves — both legal and illegal -- from Mexico and Central America. Some had just crossed the border ...

Bradley also digs out a good quote from current California Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez, a rally leader who remembers the last big anti-anti-illegal march, which provoked a memorable backlash:

""I know I come from an advocacy background," says Nuñez. "But I learned a lot about negotiation with Miguel (Contreras, the late Los Angeles labor chieftain) and the labor movement. It wasn't all protest. You know when we had the big march in L.A. against [the anti-illegal immigrant] Proposition 187 in '94, Miguel tried to talk me out of it. 'Are you guys crazy?' he said. But I wanted to march. [Emph. added.]

Bradley asks, pointedly, "Was this rally necessary to defeat a bill that George W. Bush does not support?" But yes, there's certainly a good chance that a bill George W. Bush does not support will pass--and this rally will help it pass. ... More: For a contrary view, see Marc Cooper's post. ... 4:37 P.M. link

I seldom agree with Dobbs political takes, but he's been real vocal on this:

http://newsbusters.org/node/4668

Fireworks as Lou Dobbs Debates Latino 'Civil Rights' Activist
Posted by Eric Arr on March 29, 2006 - 16:11.
Here is an incomplete exchange printed in the NYT between Dobbs and a representative of the racist and separatist organization known as La Raza, or “The Race” – the translation of which is omitted by the NYT, replaced instead by a nicer sounding “civil rights” organization:

This followed by just a day a confrontation between Mr. Dobbs and a guest on his own program, Janet Murguia, the president of the Hispanic civil rights group National Council of La Raza, during which he lectured her on immigration policy.

"I want you to look me right in the eye, and I want you to hear me loud and clear," Mr. Dobbs said to Ms. Murguia, who replied, "I'm right here."

And what happened next? Oh – I guess nobody said anything. Actually, the guest is exposed as a double-talker and is nailed to the wall by Dobbs when she tries to equate Hispanics and legal immigrants with illegal immigrants.

Here’s the rest of that exchange, in which Dobbs schools Murguia on the facts concerning illegals. It is lengthy, but gives the proper context that the NYT left out:

DOBBS: OK, are you ready to listen to me loud and clear?

MURGUIA: I'm here.

DOBBS: I don't think that we should have any flag flying in this country except the flag of the United States. And let me tell you something else, since we're talking about double standards and I think you're right about people who would believe that.

But let's be clear. I don't think there should be a St. Patrick's Day. I don't care who you are. I think we ought to be celebrating what is common about this country, what we enjoy as similarities as people. And as Peter Viles was reporting, talking about the culture and the heritage of their people and that's why they want to hold up the Mexican flag or Ecuadorian flag.

MURGUIA: No, this is about the American dream, this is about the aspirations of being Americans.

DOBBS: No, let me finish. No, the American dream is being ripped out of the hands of millions of U.S. citizens today. Their jobs are being outsourced. Their schools are falling apart. Half of the Hispanics in this country are dropping out of high school, half of them, and you know that. Half of our -- young blacks are dropping out of high school.

MURGUIA: But look at the contributions. Look at the contributions that immigrants are making. They're paying federal taxes.

DOBBS: Not immigrants, not immigrants, no they're not.

MURGUIA: But Hispanics immigrants, they are paying federal taxes.

DOBBS: No.

MURGUIA: Hispanics and immigrants contribute $519 billion into the Social Security trust fund, a trust fund that's going to pay your Social Security benefits.

DOBBS: Let me given you a real piece of bad news for you. Over half of those people coming to this country illegally don't have a high school education. They're going to be a net drag on the social services of this country. We're going to be supporting them, our social safety net.

MURGUIA: They're going to provide the work force that's up to 25 percent of that work force that is contributing and sustaining the Social Security trust fund that you and many others are going to be able to benefit, $519 billion.

DOBBS: $519 billion? Janet, can I tell you right now, and I want to say this in front of God and everybody, whoever told you that illegal immigrants are going to contribute $519 billion...

MURGUIA: ... Immigrants and Hispanics.

DOBBS: Hispanics now? Now you're saying...

MURGUIA: ... I'm saying that -- you can look it...

DOBBS: .... Excuse me. Do you think that most Hispanics in this country buy this nonsense, that illegal immigration is great?You don't think that there's a division in what Hispanics and Latinos in this country think about illegal immigration?

MURGUIA: No, I think that there are a lot of people who bring different points of view. But I think they all recognize that there's a common objective.

DOBBS: But why would you incorporate what Hispanics do?

MURGUIA: There's a common agenda here in the sense that we want to provide an opportunity to fix the broken system. It needs a comprehensive solution...

DOBBS: OK, here's a solution.

MURGUIA: ... that includes enforcement and it includes a guest worker program in dealing with those 12 million undocument.

DOBBS: Here's a solution. You tell me what's wrong it. First we secure our borders. Then we create a rational and humane immigration policy. We take control of the immigration and our borders in that order.
MURGUIA: We can do enforcement and we can make sure we're supporting some opportunities. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We really can, we're in the 21st century, we can figure this out. We're a nation of laws and a nation with immigrations.

DOBBS: Janet, I would love to say you're right, but you're watching people go on the set and say they're not talking about amnesty when they're talking about guest workers program. You're watching people sit there and say to you that they're -- please, they're equating Hispanics and illegal aliens.

MURGUIA: We've poured millions and billions of dollars into enforcement-only approaches.

DOBBS: Are you not doing that? Equating Hispanics and illegal aliens?

MURGUIA: No.

DOBBS: You said Hispanics and immigrants?

MURGUIA: No, I'm not doing that. I think other people are doing that.

DOBBS: Where did you get the $519 billion?

MURGUIA: We have a documented report that shows in the Social Security suspension files when they look at who isn't -- they can't identify names, they look at who is contributing. Those are often immigrants without documents who are paying into the Social Security system.

DOBBS: Seven billion dollars a year, do you know what they're costing in terms of social service and suppressed wages a year.

MURGUIA: I'm just saying, they're going to see a lot of...

DOBBS: It's a quarter of a billion dollars.

MURGUIA: ... the economic vitality that we see in this country is due in large part to the immigrant work force.

DOBBS: Why do you say immigrant? We're talking about illegal immigration.

MURGUIA: Well there's immigrants here who are contributing to that.

DOBBS: I would hope so, they have for 200 years.

MURGUIA: Yes, right.

DOBBS: But what about the illegals?

MURGUIA: Let's fix the system, Lou. Let's get a solution that works...

DOBBS: ... That's right, secure the border and then we can worry about the rest.

MURGUIA: But we can secure the border and find opportunities to deal with this. If we just do enforcement only, that's what we did in 1996.

DOBBS: It's four and a half years after September 11th...

MURGUIA: And it hasn't worked.

And for those partisan lefties who think Dobbs has become a right-winger, relax. Here’s his closing thought:

DOBBS: ... we've got a Homeland Security Department that still can't secure a port or a border. We have got a big problem. We can't walk and chew gum, not with this government and not with this administration.

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