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Arizona Compromise?

uptownlivin90

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I've been thinking about the current immigration law in Arizona. Personally I understand the argument on both sides and I also understand the dire situation in the state of Arizona and respect Arizona's right to respond to the current crisis the way they see fit. I'm not an expert on the bill, I'm just going off what I've heard.

From my understanding the bill allows police officers in Arizona to target those who they believe are illegal immigrants and demand that they produce some sort of documentation proving that they legally here (more or less this is what I understand to be one of the main points of the bill and the part that is the most highly contested).

I understand the argument against this on various levels.

First, it's all together concerning to ME personally to have police asking to see citizen's "papers", as if we have some sort of dog tag or national ID, and that puts this nation on a slippery slope the libertarian side of me really doesn't want to go down.

Second, yes this could give license to target Hispanics. Let's just be totally honest, blonde hair, blue eyed Becky Sue is not going to be targeted by police as an illegal. To be FAIR the bill has provisions that state that race and ethnicity alone are not criteria to suggest that someone is an illegal citizen.

My question though is, does the bill specify specifically what is?

The way I understand this bill I currently have a problem with it. What I've been hearing is that cop can look at you decide that you're an illegal, ask you for "you're papers" and if you don't have any (I certainly don't walk outside with my birth certificate and license all the time) they can arrest you. If I'm not correct please let me know.

I can however see the need for some sort of reform. I would support this if the bill would specify exact what constitutes as probable cause for demanding evidence of one's citizenship and what means by which that information should be acquired. If the bill DOESN'T here's a few suggestions I think most reasonable conservatives and liberals can agree on:

I'm not sure about Arizona but in most states you have to prove citizenship before you get a license.

If a suspect is apprehended for driving without a license this should be considered probable cause to look into his citizenship background.

If a suspect commits a crime or is accused of committing a crime and resists arrest... I think this automatically should warrant looking into his citizenship background.

If a suspect is arrested for drug laundering or dealing or drug related charges. I think this warrants looking into the individual's citizenship.

If a police officer suspects that an individual is involved in gang activity. This should warrant a look into the individual's citizenship.

Notice most of these examples apply to individuals who have already committed crimes. In other words if you commit a crime or are arrested for any reason in Arizona automatically for the most part the police should have the right to look into your citizenship and if you are not a citizen they should have the right to automatically send you to whatever agency for deportation.

Could liberals and conservatives agree on a plan like that? I personally would support it and think it's necessary.
 
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uptownlivin90

uptownlivin90

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Another possible idea: in order for someone to be released on bail for any crime, maybe we should make it necessary for someone to provide proof of citizenship for the accused.
 

Newby

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If we would guard the border the way it should be guarded, then we wouldn't have these issues to begin with. How about just solving the main problem, and the rest will take care of itself?
 
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uptownlivin90

uptownlivin90

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If we would guard the border the way it should be guarded, then we wouldn't have these issues to begin with. How about just solving the main problem, and the rest will take care of itself?

Agreed. But I can understand Arizona's frustration... what's the chances of our current president doing ANYTHING about the border situation?
 

rightwinger

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I've been thinking about the current immigration law in Arizona. Personally I understand the argument on both sides and I also understand the dire situation in the state of Arizona and respect Arizona's right to respond to the current crisis the way they see fit. I'm not an expert on the bill, I'm just going off what I've heard.

From my understanding the bill allows police officers in Arizona to target those who they believe are illegal immigrants and demand that they produce some sort of documentation proving that they legally here (more or less this is what I understand to be one of the main points of the bill and the part that is the most highly contested).

I understand the argument against this on various levels.

First, it's all together concerning to ME personally to have police asking to see citizen's "papers", as if we have some sort of dog tag or national ID, and that puts this nation on a slippery slope the libertarian side of me really doesn't want to go down.

Second, yes this could give license to target Hispanics. Let's just be totally honest, blonde hair, blue eyed Becky Sue is not going to be targeted by police as an illegal. To be FAIR the bill has provisions that state that race and ethnicity alone are not criteria to suggest that someone is an illegal citizen.

My question though is, does the bill specify specifically what is?

The way I understand this bill I currently have a problem with it. What I've been hearing is that cop can look at you decide that you're an illegal, ask you for "you're papers" and if you don't have any (I certainly don't walk outside with my birth certificate and license all the time) they can arrest you. If I'm not correct please let me know.

I can however see the need for some sort of reform. I would support this if the bill would specify exact what constitutes as probable cause for demanding evidence of one's citizenship and what means by which that information should be acquired. If the bill DOESN'T here's a few suggestions I think most reasonable conservatives and liberals can agree on:

I'm not sure about Arizona but in most states you have to prove citizenship before you get a license.

If a suspect is apprehended for driving without a license this should be considered probable cause to look into his citizenship background.

If a suspect commits a crime or is accused of committing a crime and resists arrest... I think this automatically should warrant looking into his citizenship background.

If a suspect is arrested for drug laundering or dealing or drug related charges. I think this warrants looking into the individual's citizenship.

If a police officer suspects that an individual is involved in gang activity. This should warrant a look into the individual's citizenship.

Notice most of these examples apply to individuals who have already committed crimes. In other words if you commit a crime or are arrested for any reason in Arizona automatically for the most part the police should have the right to look into your citizenship and if you are not a citizen they should have the right to automatically send you to whatever agency for deportation.

Could liberals and conservatives agree on a plan like that? I personally would support it and think it's necessary.

I think that is a workable plan.

Demanding that anyone who looks Mexican provide papers on demand will not pass muster with the courts. But tying it to some legally acceptable action by law enforcement should be allowed
 

slackjawed

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Why make assumptions, read the bill. Here it is;

Powered by Google Docs




State of Arizona
Senate
Forty-ninth Legislature
Second Regular Session
2010
SENATE BILL 1070
AN ACT
AMENDING TITLE 11, CHAPTER 7, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING ARTICLE 8;
AMENDING TITLE 13, CHAPTER 15, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION
13-1509; AMENDING SECTION 13-2319, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES; AMENDING TITLE
13, CHAPTER 29, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTIONS 13-2928 AND
13-2929; AMENDING SECTIONS 23-212, 23-212.01, 23-214 AND 28-3511, ARIZONA
REVISED STATUTES; AMENDING TITLE 41, CHAPTER 12, ARTICLE 2, ARIZONA REVISED
STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION 41-1724; RELATING TO UNLAWFULLY PRESENT ALIENS.
(TEXT OF BILL BEGINS ON NEXT PAGE)
- i -
S.B. 1070
1
Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona:
2
Section 1. Intent
3
The legislature finds that there is a compelling interest in the
4
cooperative enforcement of federal immigration laws throughout all of
5
Arizona. The legislature declares that the intent of this act is to make
6
attrition through enforcement the public policy of all state and local
7
government agencies in Arizona. The provisions of this act are intended to
8
work together to discourage and deter the unlawful entry and presence of
9
aliens and economic activity by persons unlawfully present in the United
10
States.
 

Newby

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If we would guard the border the way it should be guarded, then we wouldn't have these issues to begin with. How about just solving the main problem, and the rest will take care of itself?

Agreed. But I can understand Arizona's frustration... what's the chances of our current president doing ANYTHING about the border situation?

Unfortunately none of our presidents have addressed it, but that's the real problem. I'm kind of on the same page with you on this one, I just don't see an easy fix to it besides stopping the illegal immigration to begin with.

A different way they could deal with it is to start having audits of employers known to hire illegals. Show up at random times requesting the company's documentation papers on all of their employees (they're supposed to verify that they're hiring legal citizens). Once word gets out that this is going to happen on a weekly basis, they will quit hiring them. There's no reason to come here if you're not going to get a job.
 

blu

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If we would guard the border the way it should be guarded, then we wouldn't have these issues to begin with. How about just solving the main problem, and the rest will take care of itself?

again, you can't "guard the border", most people come in cars over the border and through underground tunnels that we currently don't have the technology to detect from the surface. if you want to stop them you need to starve them out. put excessive fines on any business that hires illegals and have cops monitor every home depot, lowes, etc for workers
 

rightwinger

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If we would guard the border the way it should be guarded, then we wouldn't have these issues to begin with. How about just solving the main problem, and the rest will take care of itself?

again, you can't "guard the border", most people come in cars over the border and through underground tunnels that we currently don't have the technology to detect from the surface. if you want to stop them you need to starve them out. put excessive fines on any business that hires illegals and have cops monitor every home depot, lowes, etc for workers

Agree

If the jobs dry up, there will be no need for a fence

If their are good paying jobs on this side of the border...no fence will keep them away
 

GHook93

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If we would guard the border the way it should be guarded, then we wouldn't have these issues to begin with. How about just solving the main problem, and the rest will take care of itself?

again, you can't "guard the border", most people come in cars over the border and through underground tunnels that we currently don't have the technology to detect from the surface. if you want to stop them you need to starve them out. put excessive fines on any business that hires illegals and have cops monitor every home depot, lowes, etc for workers

Bullshit Bluballs! We can't stop everyone, but if we took it seriously we could stop that vast majority of them!
 

blu

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If we would guard the border the way it should be guarded, then we wouldn't have these issues to begin with. How about just solving the main problem, and the rest will take care of itself?

again, you can't "guard the border", most people come in cars over the border and through underground tunnels that we currently don't have the technology to detect from the surface. if you want to stop them you need to starve them out. put excessive fines on any business that hires illegals and have cops monitor every home depot, lowes, etc for workers

Bullshit Bluballs! We can't stop everyone, but if we took it seriously we could stop that vast majority of them!

explain to me how you will detect people going under miles of tunnels? i would love to hear this
 

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