Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?

[Ringo]

Do you remember some time ago when there were clashes in Europe between disgruntled locals and refugees? Then, the capitalists needed to distract the attention of the population and tell them that nationalism is bad. Ukraine was chosen as the best example for this, where there was more nationalism and nazism. than necessary. Then the Times, the same one that now portrays ukrainian nazis as heroes, released the following video material:

 

[xyz]

Russian soldiers don't discriminate on ethnic background, they'll kill whoever lives in Ukraine, including ethnic Russians.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Dissident]

Russian soldiers don't discriminate on ethnic background, they'll kill whoever lives in Ukraine, including ethnic Russians.

This thread isn’t about fairy tales of Western mass media.
This thread is about really existing Ukrainian laws – please read the first post of this thread.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

One of the main declared tasks of the Russian military operation in Ukraine is denazification of Ukraine.
Therefore, it is important to answer the question – Is the present Ukraine a Nazi state?
The main feature of Nazism is division of citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories which have different rights.

A classic example of a Nazi state was the Hitler's Germany where Germans had all rights, Slavic minorities – Lusatians etc. – had less rights than Germans, and Jews had less rights than Slavs.
Therefore, at that time the German society had the form of a pyramid where some ethnic groups were placed higher and some other lower.

View attachment 631638​

Many aspects of life were regulated according to this pyramid, inter alia, Jews had no right to marry Germans; many professions could be practices only by Germans, etc.

The present Ukraine

According to the Constitution of Ukraine, all Ukrainian citizens irrespective of their ethnic origin have equal rights.

But is it really so?

Spoiler

Let’s analyze, for example, the Ukrainian Law on Indigenous Peoples and Law on Secondary Education.
These laws provide that only Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and two other small Crimean Turkic peoples have the right to be taught in Ukraine with use of their native languages in all grades of secondary school.

Ethnic Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians have the right to be taught in Ukraine with use of their native languages in elementary school, but after the fourth grade they must be taught with use of the Ukrainian language during at least 20% of annual school hours in middle school. The percentage of use of the Ukrainian language gradually increases for such children in the following grades and reaches 60% of annual school hours in high school.

As for ethnic Russians, the education for their children in Ukraine can be provided in elementary school with use of the Russian language together with learning of the Ukrainian language, but after the fourth grade they must be taught with use of the Ukrainian language during at least 80% of annual school hours.

Therefore, we see in the domain of education in Ukraine the same pyramid when citizens are divided into categories which we saw in the Nazi Germany.

View attachment 631639​

And such curtailment of rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine has taken place gradually - with apologies, regrets etc. – but systematically.
For example, after the “Victory of Euromaidan” in 2014 – although Euromaidan had originally been declared as people's insurrection against the “corrupt regime of Yanukovych” – the Ukrainian Parliament at the same day repealed the Law on Regional Languages.

Three months later, the first “post-revolutionary” Ukrainian President Poroshenko in his interview for Le Figaro called this decision of the Parliament a mistake (see here), but later this law was finally repealed.

Over the last 8 years the Ukrainian rulers failed to prove that the “corrupt regime of Yanukovych” had stolen one single dollar (see here) but they did very much for curtailment of rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
Therefore, I am sure that they planned to do much more for such curtailment.

And please answer the question – Aren't the above-mentioned Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?

Source

So sorry that I missed this thread! Good information

 

[para bellum]

I give such a definition - Nazi laws are the laws which divide citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories having different rights. And the Ukrainian laws, which are described in the first post of this thread, match this definition.

Tell you what. Why don't you post the Nazi law that you are comparing it to, so we can all judge for ourselves?

You are totally misrepresenting the Ukraine law. I think maybe you are the 3rd grader here, that seems to be your comprehension level.

The law guarantees everyone in Ukraine a right to a free education. The law requires schools to graduate students who are fluent in Ukrainian, which is the official language. You may or may not agree with official State languages, that is not the question. Many countries have official languages and they don't get accused of being Nazis.

The law recognizes there are indigenous people who have their own language, it also recognizes there are students from other countries who speak other languages.

The law does not ban teaching courses in other languages. It sets a minimum level of publicly funded support for people who do not speak Ukrainian. Indigenous people get the most support, people from EU States get a little less, and people from non-EU States get less again.

A student from the US or Israel or Samoa has the same level of support as someone from Russia. The law does not target Russians.

Elementary students get the most minority language support. As they get older, the level of support declines as they are expected to be getting more fluent in Ukrainian.

It is up to local administrators to decide how much minority language support is appropriate for their local populations. They are not prohibited from offering more than the law specifies, it just can't come at the expense of the classes taught in Ukrainian.

The law does not apply to private schools, only publicly funded ones. Anyone can setup a school in any language they want- they only have the requirement that the graduating class be fluent in Ukrainian.

So public school districts cannot be required to maintain staffing and curriculum for courses taught in every freaking language on earth. If you are from Samoa, there may be a shortage of teachers who speak Samoan, yes? If you want to live and work in Ukraine, it might help to learn Ukrainian...

You think this law is directed at the students because that is the silly narrative that has been pushed by Russia. It is not- it is directed at local PUBLIC education systems, and the people who administer them.

Set aside your personal bias, and read it again. But this time, try to imagine you are an administrator in a Ukrainian public school, rather than someone who is convinced Ukrainians are a bunch of Nazis. You have a budget, you know your student population. You know you have to accommodate some students in their own language. This law sets a minimum level of support, so that those students are not just cast aside because they are inconvenient. At the same time, it assures that the graduates will be able to get along in Ukraine after their schooling is complete.

 

[Ringo]

You are totally misrepresenting the Ukraine law.

Laws? What laws? They don't need no stinking laws (c)
In the fascist state, which is Ukraine, the laws do not prevent the persecution of the objectionable. For example, when one of the fascist stormtroopers committed a crime, a gang of his nationalist friends came to his court and simply intimidated the judge. This happened repeatedly and was recorded on numerous videos that were posted on YouTube at one time. And yet, the discontented were simply killed on the streets or they disappeared without a trace. The most successful managed to get out of fascist prisons, after years of imprisonment and bullying.

 

[Dissident]

You are totally misrepresenting the Ukraine law.

It is absolutely impossible to misrepresent the law which is published on the official website of the Ukrainian parliament.

Everybody can open this law, find the Article 5 “Мова освіти в закладах загальної середньої освіти” (Language of education in institutions of general secondary education), copy paragraphs 4 and 6 into Google Translator and check whether I misrepresent this law or not.

There are really different levels of restrictions for different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.

Ethnic minorities which are recognized as indigenous peoples - in Ukraine they are only Crimean Tatars, Crimean Karaites and Krymchaks - have no restrictions to use their native languages during education in public secondary schools.

Ethnic minorities, whose languages are official languages of the European Union - e.g. ethnic Hungarians or Romanians – have some restrictions for use of their native languages during such education.

And other ethnic minorities – e.g. Russians, Belarusans etc.- have more such restrictions than Hungarians or Romanians.

Isn’t it a discrimination, for example, when the right of ethnic Russians to use their native language during education in the fifth grade of public schools is restricted to only 20% of education time, whereas, for example, ethnic Hungarians have the right to use their native language during 80% of education time in that grade?

 

[para bellum]

There are really different levels of restrictions for different ethnic minorities to use their native languages during education in Ukraine.

No, that is not what it says. There are no restrictions of any sort.

This is about the umpteenth thread on the Ukrainian Law on Education, always the same stupid mischaracterization.

Ukraine has a state language. Everyone is guaranteed a full education in the state language if they go to a public school. Everyone.

One of the goals of the education system is that the graduates are fluent in the state language.

The state recognizes it has a burden to indigenous people and other national minorities when it comes to public education. Especially at a young age- these kids speak a different language at home, and you can't throw them in a classroom with a different language and expect them to learn anything.

The law addresses that burden and sets the levels of accommodation.

All national minorities have a right to a full primary education in their own language along with the state language. Part of this primary education is learning the state language.

Indigenous people also have the right to a full secondary education in their own language. The state believes it has a higher burden to it's own indigenous minorities than it does to other minorities, and indigenous languages are ingrained in the culture- and actually deserve to be preserved, btw.

National minorities who are not indigenous people but who are from EU language countries are still supported, but to a lesser degree at the secondary level. National minorities from all other countries are supported the least.

Those other languages are not in danger of being lost. Indigenous languages are, and they need to be protected.

The law does not prevent any school system from offering any course in any language (provided it meets the 5 student minimum). It does not restrict the amount of classes any student can take in his native language.

It says "if you aren't an indigenous person, a certain amount of your education must be in the state language if you go to a public school."

Now post the Nazi law that you keep comparing this to.

 

[Dissident]

There are no restrictions of any sort.

I have already asked everybody to translate some paragraphs of this law in Google Translator instead of listening to your and my explanations.

If somebody translates these paragraphs, he/she will of course see the difference, e.g. difference between 20% of education time for one category of ethnic minorities and 80% for another category of ethnic minorities.

And he/she will see the repeated word “minimum” in this Law.

And the words “minimum” and “maximum” on themselves mean restrictions.

They mean that a certain amount must be restricted, i.e. this amount is not allowed to be less than minimum – or more than maximum.

And it has no sense to discuss anything with you while you allege that “20% of education time” is the same as “80%” or you allege that the word “minimum” doesn’t mean restrictions.

 

[para bellum]

I have already asked everybody to translate some paragraphs of this law in Google Translator instead of listening to your and my explanations.

We've already done that here, I have posted the entirety of that part in English before. You fools are like broken records, you keep posting thread after thread on the same fucking thing. No one is buying your bullshit.

Where is the Nazi law? Come on, that's your big deal. Trot it out.

Or STFU FFS.

 

[frigidweirdo]

One of the main declared tasks of the Russian military operation in Ukraine is denazification of Ukraine.
Therefore, it is important to answer the question – Is the present Ukraine a Nazi state?
The main feature of Nazism is division of citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories which have different rights.

A classic example of a Nazi state was the Hitler's Germany where Germans had all rights, Slavic minorities – Lusatians etc. – had less rights than Germans, and Jews had less rights than Slavs.
Therefore, at that time the German society had the form of a pyramid where some ethnic groups were placed higher and some other lower.

View attachment 631638​

Many aspects of life were regulated according to this pyramid, inter alia, Jews had no right to marry Germans; many professions could be practices only by Germans, etc.

The present Ukraine

According to the Constitution of Ukraine, all Ukrainian citizens irrespective of their ethnic origin have equal rights.

But is it really so?

Spoiler

Let’s analyze, for example, the Ukrainian Law on Indigenous Peoples and Law on Secondary Education.
These laws provide that only Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and two other small Crimean Turkic peoples have the right to be taught in Ukraine with use of their native languages in all grades of secondary school.

Ethnic Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians have the right to be taught in Ukraine with use of their native languages in elementary school, but after the fourth grade they must be taught with use of the Ukrainian language during at least 20% of annual school hours in middle school. The percentage of use of the Ukrainian language gradually increases for such children in the following grades and reaches 60% of annual school hours in high school.

As for ethnic Russians, the education for their children in Ukraine can be provided in elementary school with use of the Russian language together with learning of the Ukrainian language, but after the fourth grade they must be taught with use of the Ukrainian language during at least 80% of annual school hours.

Therefore, we see in the domain of education in Ukraine the same pyramid when citizens are divided into categories which we saw in the Nazi Germany.

View attachment 631639​

And such curtailment of rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine has taken place gradually - with apologies, regrets etc. – but systematically.
For example, after the “Victory of Euromaidan” in 2014 – although Euromaidan had originally been declared as people's insurrection against the “corrupt regime of Yanukovych” – the Ukrainian Parliament at the same day repealed the Law on Regional Languages.

Three months later, the first “post-revolutionary” Ukrainian President Poroshenko in his interview for Le Figaro called this decision of the Parliament a mistake (see here), but later this law was finally repealed.

Over the last 8 years the Ukrainian rulers failed to prove that the “corrupt regime of Yanukovych” had stolen one single dollar (see here) but they did very much for curtailment of rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
Therefore, I am sure that they planned to do much more for such curtailment.

And please answer the question – Aren't the above-mentioned Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?

Source

No, Ukraine is far, far, FAR from being a Nazi state.
They've used this as a justification because the Ukraine was desperate to have enough people fighting and when Nazis said "we'll help against Russia", the Ukraine didn't turn them down.
They've claimed a law that benefits minorities is also something aki to Nazism. But the US has laws like this too, for example Native Americans on their reservations can have casinos when non-native Americans can't.

 

[Dissident]

But the US has laws like this too, for example Native Americans on their reservations can have casinos when non-native Americans can't.

It is untrue; every city or town in the U.S. can have casinos if local authorities allow it.

Atlantic City has only 0.48% Native Americans (see here), but it has casinos.

Town Black Hawk has only 0.85% Native Americans (see here), but it has casinos.

And so on.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It is untrue; every city or town in the U.S. can have casinos if local authorities allow it.

Atlantic City has only 0.48% Native Americans (see here), but it has casinos.

Town Black Hawk has only 0.85% Native Americans (see here), but it has casinos.

And so on.

But they don't. So.... it's true.
Many states ban gambling for most people.
In Alaska gambling can be done for charity and by Tribal groups only.

The point being that there are LAWS which DISCRIMINATE. That is so. You literally said it yourself "if local authorities allow it".

 

[Dissident]

You literally said it yourself "if local authorities allow it".

And I repeat the same – if local authorities allow a city, a town, a Native Americans’ reservation etc. to have a casino, this city, town, Native Americans’ reservation etc. can have it.

Otherwise, no of them can have casinos.

There is no discrimination at all.

Please read below about a procedure for granting a permission to a Native Americans’ tribe.

Before a Tribe may lawfully conduct class III gaming (e.g. in casinos), the following conditions must be met:

• The Particular form of class III gaming that the Tribe wants to conduct must be permitted in the state in which the tribe is located.
• The Tribe and the state must have negotiated a compact that has been approved by the Secretary of the Interior, or the Secretary must have approved regulatory procedures.
• The Tribe must have adopted a Tribal gaming ordinance that has been approved by the Chairman of the Commission.

Wikipedia

 

[frigidweirdo]

And I repeat the same – if local authorities allow a city, a town, a Native Americans’ reservation etc. to have a casino, this city, town, Native Americans’ reservation etc. can have it.

Otherwise, no of them can have casinos.

There is no discrimination at all.

Please read below about a procedure for granting a permission to a Native Americans’ tribe.


Wikipedia

I'm sorry you just aren't able to follow this topic.

Oh well, have a nice day.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

One of the main declared tasks of the Russian military operation in Ukraine is denazification of Ukraine.
Therefore, it is important to answer the question – Is the present Ukraine a Nazi state?
The main feature of Nazism is division of citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories which have different rights.

A classic example of a Nazi state was the Hitler's Germany where Germans had all rights, Slavic minorities – Lusatians etc. – had less rights than Germans, and Jews had less rights than Slavs.
Therefore, at that time the German society had the form of a pyramid where some ethnic groups were placed higher and some other lower.

View attachment 631638​

Many aspects of life were regulated according to this pyramid, inter alia, Jews had no right to marry Germans; many professions could be practices only by Germans, etc.

The present Ukraine

According to the Constitution of Ukraine, all Ukrainian citizens irrespective of their ethnic origin have equal rights.

But is it really so?

Spoiler

Let’s analyze, for example, the Ukrainian Law on Indigenous Peoples and Law on Secondary Education.
These laws provide that only Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and two other small Crimean Turkic peoples have the right to be taught in Ukraine with use of their native languages in all grades of secondary school.

Ethnic Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians have the right to be taught in Ukraine with use of their native languages in elementary school, but after the fourth grade they must be taught with use of the Ukrainian language during at least 20% of annual school hours in middle school. The percentage of use of the Ukrainian language gradually increases for such children in the following grades and reaches 60% of annual school hours in high school.

As for ethnic Russians, the education for their children in Ukraine can be provided in elementary school with use of the Russian language together with learning of the Ukrainian language, but after the fourth grade they must be taught with use of the Ukrainian language during at least 80% of annual school hours.

Therefore, we see in the domain of education in Ukraine the same pyramid when citizens are divided into categories which we saw in the Nazi Germany.

View attachment 631639​

And such curtailment of rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine has taken place gradually - with apologies, regrets etc. – but systematically.
For example, after the “Victory of Euromaidan” in 2014 – although Euromaidan had originally been declared as people's insurrection against the “corrupt regime of Yanukovych” – the Ukrainian Parliament at the same day repealed the Law on Regional Languages.

Three months later, the first “post-revolutionary” Ukrainian President Poroshenko in his interview for Le Figaro called this decision of the Parliament a mistake (see here), but later this law was finally repealed.

Over the last 8 years the Ukrainian rulers failed to prove that the “corrupt regime of Yanukovych” had stolen one single dollar (see here) but they did very much for curtailment of rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
Therefore, I am sure that they planned to do much more for such curtailment.

And please answer the question – Aren't the above-mentioned Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?

Source

The US media never mentions any of that

 

[Ringo]

 

[xyz]

The US media never mentions any of that

What percentage of school can be taught in a language other than English in the US?

What about Russia? What percentage can be taught in languages other than Russian?

 

[Ringo]