CDZ Are O'Neill Colonies the Future of Mankind?

Would YOU live in an O'Neill Cylender?

  • Yes, happily

    Votes: 2 66.7%
  • If I had to

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No way, Earth is Home Sweet Home

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • I dunno, what on TV?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3

JimBowie1958

Old Fogey
Sep 25, 2011
63,590
16,753
2,220
I first saw this in Bezos speech the other day and I was impressed. I h ad never heard of them and yet they have been around for decades.

O'Neill cylinder - Wikipedia

They can be perfect controlled environments with everything placed for beauty, efficiency and safety.

Each would have a livable area of about the size of Guam and since the hydropnic farming would be in a lartge set of hydroponic spheres, it would be more living area than resource area. Most resources would come from mining the Moon, Mars and astroids that would be tugged in.

Thousands of these things could be built and the Earth turned into a giant park. There would be no pollution, no shortages, and if needed we could move them outside of the Suns expansion over the course of millions of years.

From the Wikipedia article:

The Island Three design, better known as the O'Neill cylinder, consists of two counter-rotating cylinders, each five miles (8.0 km) in diameter, and capable of scaling up to twenty miles (32 km) long.[5] Each cylinder has six equal-area stripes that run the length of the cylinder; three are transparent windows, three are habitable "land" surfaces. Furthermore, an outer agricultural ring, twenty miles (32 km) in diameter, rotates at a different speed to support farming. The habitat's industrial manufacturing block is located in the middle, to allow for minimized gravity for some manufacturing processes.

To save the immense cost of rocketing the materials from Earth, these habitats would be built with materials launched into space from the Moon with a magnetic mass driver.[1]

Design[edit]
Artificial gravity[edit]

A NASA lunar base concept with a mass driver (the long structure that extends toward the horizon that is a part of the plan to build O'Neill Cylinders)
The cylinders rotate to provide artificial gravity on their inner surface. At the radius described by O'Neill, the habitats would have to rotate about twenty-eight times an hour to simulate a standard Earth gravity; an angular velocity of 2.8 degrees per second. Research on human factors in rotating reference frames[6][7][8][9][10] indicate that, at such low rotation speeds, few people would experience motion sickness due to coriolis forces acting on the inner ear. People would, however, be able to detect spinward and antispinward directions by turning their heads, and any dropped items would appear to be deflected by a few centimetres.[9] The central axis of the habitat would be a zero-gravity region, and it was envisaged that recreational facilities could be located there.

Atmosphere and radiation[edit]
The habitat was planned to have oxygen at partial pressures roughly similar to terrestrial air, 20% of the Earth's sea-level air pressure. Nitrogen would also be included to add a further 30% of the Earth's pressure. This half-pressure atmosphere would save gas and reduce the needed strength and thickness of the habitat walls.[1][4]


Artist's depiction of the interior of an O'Neill cylinder, illuminated by reflected sunlight
At this scale, the air within the cylinder and the shell of the cylinder provide adequate shielding against cosmic rays.[1] The internal volume of an O'Neill cylinder is great enough to support its own small weather systems, which may be manipulated by altering the internal atmospheric composition or the amount of reflected sunlight.[5]

Sunlight[edit]
Large mirrors are hinged at the back of each stripe of window. The unhinged edge of the windows points toward the Sun. The purpose of the mirrors is to reflect sunlight into the cylinders through the windows. Night is simulated by opening the mirrors, letting the window view empty space; this also permits heat to radiate to space. During the day, the reflected Sun appears to move as the mirrors move, creating a natural progression of Sun angles. Although not visible to the naked eye, the Sun's image might be observed to rotate due to the cylinder's rotation. Light transmitted through glass at an angle is somewhat polarized, which might confuse pollinating bees.[1]

To permit light to enter the habitat, large windows run the length of the cylinder.[1] These would not be single panes, but would be made up of many small sections, to prevent catastrophic damage, and so the aluminum or steel window frames can take most of the stresses of the air pressure of the habitat.[1] Occasionally a meteorite might break one of these panes. This would cause some loss of the atmosphere, but calculations showed that this would not be an emergency, due to the very large volume of the habitat.[1]

Attitude control[edit]
The habitat and its mirrors must be perpetually aimed at the Sun to collect solar energy and light the habitat's interior. O'Neill and his students carefully worked out a method of continuously turning the colony 360 degrees per orbit without using rockets (which would shed reaction mass).[1] First, the pair of habitats can be rolled by operating the cylinders as momentum wheels. If one habitat's rotation is slightly off, the two cylinders will rotate about each other. Once the plane formed by the two axes of rotation is perpendicular in the roll axis to the orbit, then the pair of cylinders can be yawed to aim at the Sun by exerting a force between the two sunward bearings. Pushing the cylinders away from each other will cause both cylinders to gyroscopically precess, and the system will yaw in one direction, while pushing them towards each other will cause yaw in the other direction. The counter-rotating habitats have no net gyroscopic effect, and so this slight precession can continue throughout the habitat's orbit, keeping it aimed at the Sun.

upload_2019-5-21_23-50-26.png



upload_2019-5-21_23-51-59.png


Sound good?
 
Actually, I just put a down payment on a condo within a Planned O’Neil Cylinder.it cost $5 billion, but I got terms with zero interest, $1 per year for the next 5 billion years. I got the guys number if anybody is interested.
 
Interesting concept. I would expect to see something like this in a few centuries if we can keep from killing each other. Then again, I thought we would be much further along wrt space exploration than we are currently. I thought we would have a permanently manned moon base by now with manned expeditions to Mars at least being planned. Shit, all we have now is a crap international space station and we can't even put our own vehicles in space any more, instead relying on the Russians.
 
The NEO asteroid intercept space force(s) and tethered satellite infrastructure to reduce costs is a political nightmare.
But then again, the alternative of letting an asteroid hit our lovely planet is a bigger nightmare isn't it?
 
The NEO asteroid intercept space force(s) and tethered satellite infrastructure to reduce costs is a political nightmare.
But then again, the alternative of letting an asteroid hit our lovely planet is a bigger nightmare isn't it?

Oh yeah. But other nations have their equivalent of Nancy Pelosi and Comey. Stupid stunt politicians in many other countries like Macron and Merkel make even Pelosi seem semi-sane.
 
Oh yeah. But other nations have their equivalent of Nancy Pelosi and Comey. Stupid stunt politicians in many other countries like Macron and Merkel make even Pelosi seem semi-sane.
Why do you assume these are different people?

Seems to me that a theory that they are shape changing lizards and pose as each other has more veracity.

:D
 
Sound good?
Sounds wonderful but given the history of man, the reality may be ugly. The only groups willing to pay will be those that actually want to go. There may be some tourism involved but I'd guess it will be funded and populated by fringe groups, religious, nationalist, racist, etc. There won't be conquistadors but there may be religious groups like the old Puritans that want to practice what others won't tolerate. Imagine a Scientology or neo-Nazi colony.
 
Sound good?
Sounds wonderful but given the history of man, the reality may be ugly. The only groups willing to pay will be those that actually want to go. There may be some tourism involved but I'd guess it will be funded and populated by fringe groups, religious, nationalist, racist, etc. There won't be conquistadors but there may be religious groups like the old Puritans that want to practice what others won't tolerate. Imagine a Scientology or neo-Nazi colony.

Well, I think there will be multipole types of star colonies; 1) government installations, corporate owned installation exploiting the lack of gravity, retirement colonies and private colonies funded by all kinds of different groups.

I seriously doubt losers like neo-Nazis would ever have such a colony, as they cant even take over a local county here on Earth, but who knows?
 
I seriously doubt losers like neo-Nazis would ever have such a colony, as they cant even take over a local county here on Earth, but who knows?
Let us not forget that Hitler took his country to war. If he took them to space he'd be considered a modern-day Moses. If Jim Jones went to space instead of South America, a lot of people might still be alive.
 

Are O'Neill Colonies the Future of Mankind?​


O'Neill wrote his book "High Frontier" in 1971 ... it has been widely ridiculed in science circles for significantly under-estimating the costs involved in building such a O'Neill habitat... as well as significantly under-estimating the effects of micro-gravity and radiation on anyone who tried to live in one.
 
O'Neill wrote his book "High Frontier" in 1971 ... it has been widely ridiculed in science circles for significantly under-estimating the costs involved in building such a O'Neill habitat... as well as significantly under-estimating the effects of micro-gravity and radiation on anyone who tried to live in one.
The cost would depend on how much of the construction would be done by robots. The longer we wait, the cheaper it will be.

I'm not sure why gravity is an issue since the cylinders would spin, creating the amount of gravity we desired. Same with radiation, since we'd live inside a very thick cylinder we'd be protected from most of the radiation. I doubt it would be much worse than living on earth.
 
The cost would depend on how much of the construction would be done by robots. The longer we wait, the cheaper it will be.

I'm not sure why gravity is an issue since the cylinders would spin, creating the amount of gravity we desired. Same with radiation, since we'd live inside a very thick cylinder we'd be protected from most of the radiation. I doubt it would be much worse than living on earth.

The cost isn't dependent on length of construction... it's dependent on lift cost.

As long as we use chemical rockets to bring material from Earth to the closest Lagrange Point, where the habitat is constructed, it will still cost several thousand dollars a kilograms for every screw, nut, and bolt in the gigantic station.

The most simple O'Neil habitat would be a Bernal Sphere, which would only provide Earth normal gravity at the equator. Gravity would decrease the further you move to the equator, becoming zero at the poles of the habitat.

Being outside the Van Allen Belt, the station would be highly susceptible to solar radiation. You could surround the sphere in a hundred feet of lunar regolith to stop even the worst of it but.... that would block all light from entering the habitat and O'Neil envisioned growing crops using solar light to feed the habitat population.
 
I first saw this in Bezos speech the other day and I was impressed. I h ad never heard of them and yet they have been around for decades.

O'Neill cylinder - Wikipedia

They can be perfect controlled environments with everything placed for beauty, efficiency and safety.

Each would have a livable area of about the size of Guam and since the hydropnic farming would be in a lartge set of hydroponic spheres, it would be more living area than resource area. Most resources would come from mining the Moon, Mars and astroids that would be tugged in.

Thousands of these things could be built and the Earth turned into a giant park. There would be no pollution, no shortages, and if needed we could move them outside of the Suns expansion over the course of millions of years.

From the Wikipedia article:

The Island Three design, better known as the O'Neill cylinder, consists of two counter-rotating cylinders, each five miles (8.0 km) in diameter, and capable of scaling up to twenty miles (32 km) long.[5] Each cylinder has six equal-area stripes that run the length of the cylinder; three are transparent windows, three are habitable "land" surfaces. Furthermore, an outer agricultural ring, twenty miles (32 km) in diameter, rotates at a different speed to support farming. The habitat's industrial manufacturing block is located in the middle, to allow for minimized gravity for some manufacturing processes.

To save the immense cost of rocketing the materials from Earth, these habitats would be built with materials launched into space from the Moon with a magnetic mass driver.[1]

Design[edit]
Artificial gravity[edit]

A NASA lunar base concept with a mass driver (the long structure that extends toward the horizon that is a part of the plan to build O'Neill Cylinders)
The cylinders rotate to provide artificial gravity on their inner surface. At the radius described by O'Neill, the habitats would have to rotate about twenty-eight times an hour to simulate a standard Earth gravity; an angular velocity of 2.8 degrees per second. Research on human factors in rotating reference frames[6][7][8][9][10] indicate that, at such low rotation speeds, few people would experience motion sickness due to coriolis forces acting on the inner ear. People would, however, be able to detect spinward and antispinward directions by turning their heads, and any dropped items would appear to be deflected by a few centimetres.[9] The central axis of the habitat would be a zero-gravity region, and it was envisaged that recreational facilities could be located there.

Atmosphere and radiation[edit]
The habitat was planned to have oxygen at partial pressures roughly similar to terrestrial air, 20% of the Earth's sea-level air pressure. Nitrogen would also be included to add a further 30% of the Earth's pressure. This half-pressure atmosphere would save gas and reduce the needed strength and thickness of the habitat walls.[1][4]


Artist's depiction of the interior of an O'Neill cylinder, illuminated by reflected sunlight
At this scale, the air within the cylinder and the shell of the cylinder provide adequate shielding against cosmic rays.[1] The internal volume of an O'Neill cylinder is great enough to support its own small weather systems, which may be manipulated by altering the internal atmospheric composition or the amount of reflected sunlight.[5]

Sunlight[edit]
Large mirrors are hinged at the back of each stripe of window. The unhinged edge of the windows points toward the Sun. The purpose of the mirrors is to reflect sunlight into the cylinders through the windows. Night is simulated by opening the mirrors, letting the window view empty space; this also permits heat to radiate to space. During the day, the reflected Sun appears to move as the mirrors move, creating a natural progression of Sun angles. Although not visible to the naked eye, the Sun's image might be observed to rotate due to the cylinder's rotation. Light transmitted through glass at an angle is somewhat polarized, which might confuse pollinating bees.[1]

To permit light to enter the habitat, large windows run the length of the cylinder.[1] These would not be single panes, but would be made up of many small sections, to prevent catastrophic damage, and so the aluminum or steel window frames can take most of the stresses of the air pressure of the habitat.[1] Occasionally a meteorite might break one of these panes. This would cause some loss of the atmosphere, but calculations showed that this would not be an emergency, due to the very large volume of the habitat.[1]

Attitude control[edit]
The habitat and its mirrors must be perpetually aimed at the Sun to collect solar energy and light the habitat's interior. O'Neill and his students carefully worked out a method of continuously turning the colony 360 degrees per orbit without using rockets (which would shed reaction mass).[1] First, the pair of habitats can be rolled by operating the cylinders as momentum wheels. If one habitat's rotation is slightly off, the two cylinders will rotate about each other. Once the plane formed by the two axes of rotation is perpendicular in the roll axis to the orbit, then the pair of cylinders can be yawed to aim at the Sun by exerting a force between the two sunward bearings. Pushing the cylinders away from each other will cause both cylinders to gyroscopically precess, and the system will yaw in one direction, while pushing them towards each other will cause yaw in the other direction. The counter-rotating habitats have no net gyroscopic effect, and so this slight precession can continue throughout the habitat's orbit, keeping it aimed at the Sun.

View attachment 261937


View attachment 261939

Sound good?

Not when a cow fart worth of methane or too many people exhaling CO2 will fry all of the inhabitants due to global climate warming change
 
The rich are always going to waste public money and their own seeking immortality and schemes to eliminate the masses and have a giant park world for their personal playground. They even have clubs like Davos to get together and discuss such schemes. A lot of these Space Geeks will be very angry if they ever achieve this Paradise and find themselves to be the first of the masses to be jettisoned out as the most expendable waste of air while the plutocrats keep the sushi chefs and the hookers.
 
The cost isn't dependent on length of construction... it's dependent on lift cost.

As long as we use chemical rockets to bring material from Earth to the closest Lagrange Point, where the habitat is constructed, it will still cost several thousand dollars a kilograms for every screw, nut, and bolt in the gigantic station.
I have to disagree. We'll have to lift our robots from earth but a 3d printer on the site could make those screws, nuts, and bolts from the metals in asteroids. In fact, hollowing out a revolving asteroid would get us a big head start on construction.

The most simple O'Neil habitat would be a Bernal Sphere, which would only provide Earth normal gravity at the equator. Gravity would decrease the further you move to the equator, becoming zero at the poles of the habitat.
A rotating asteroid would be even simpler and, if cylindrically shaped, gravity would be a constant.

Being outside the Van Allen Belt, the station would be highly susceptible to solar radiation. You could surround the sphere in a hundred feet of lunar regolith to stop even the worst of it but.... that would block all light from entering the habitat and O'Neil envisioned growing crops using solar light to feed the habitat population.
Using solar powered lights in the interior or even mirrors on the ends would solve the radiation issue.
 

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