Are Catholics Christian Part Deux.

[Kagom]

I'm curious for everyone's input on this issue. It's one that I used to come across a lot back when I was a Catholic Apologist. Of course, I always defended Catholocism as a Christian denomination and I believe it still is. But how many of you feel differently or the same, etc.?

Now, I want to be very straight-forward: this is about the validity of Catholocism as a denomination in Christianity, nothing more. No talk about molestations, no bashing others here, and above all, stay on topic. We've seen the disaster that was the original thread. Let's try again, shall we?

 

[Said1]

I'm not very religious, anymore, although would still say yes. Now I know there are many who will argue and I know why. It matters not, cause I won't change my mind. Most sensible Catholics don't idolize saints anymore anyway, just the Italians and the tipsy Irish.

 

[Kagom]

I'm not very religious, anymore, although would still say yes. Now I know there are many who will argue and I know why. It matters not, cause I won't change my mind. Most sensible Catholics don't idolize saints anymore anyway, just the Italians and the tipsy Irish.

Idolization of the Saints was something that the ignorant masses did back then. They weren't taught well and thought it was apart of their faith. They've learned now to venerate, not idolize.

 

[Annie]

Idolization of the Saints was something that the ignorant masses did back then. They weren't taught well and thought it was apart of their faith. They've learned now to venerate, not idolize.

I never knew idolization. As far as I was taught, they were models for living 'Christ like.' Same as George Washington used Cincinnatus.

 

[Said1]

Idolization of the Saints was something that the ignorant masses did back then. They weren't taught well and thought it was apart of their faith. They've learned now to venerate, not idolize.

When is back then?

In any case, that's debatable in these parts. There's still some old school preists around and some do take saint worship a little to far, today.

 

[Kagom]

I never knew idolization. As far as I was taught, they were models for living 'Christ like.' Same as George Washington used Cincinnatus.

It was something that caused a few problems in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. I could be misinformed myself on the whole idolization part, but I do know it's an argument used. I know, based on my studies of the faith, that the Church has never changed its position on the saints and that it's always been about veneration and not idolization. BUt yes, you are right. They are models for living like Christ.

 

[Kagom]

When is back then?

In any case, that's debatable in these parts. There's still some old school preists around and some do take saint worship a little to far, today.

Medieval/Renaissance is the time period I was addressing.

Are you're referring to the Sedeavacantists, or those who follow the old Latin mass and don't wish to follow the Novus Ordo? They may seem to take it "too far", but they're going on what they were taught in the Seminary.

 

[Annie]

It was something that caused a few problems in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. I could be misinformed myself on the whole idolization part, but I do know it's an argument used. I know, based on my studies of the faith, that the Church has never changed its position on the saints and that it's always been about veneration and not idolization. BUt yes, you are right. They are models for living like Christ.

Anyone that encourages worship, rather than praise for their example, is a heretic. I was taught that, way back in the 60's. Same with Mary, she is a model, not a god, always was.

 

[1549]

I am a confirmed catholic. It seems as though American catholics are more laid back than protestants. Catholics put in their hour a week, maybe say the rosary now and then, wear a cross, and other than that mind their business. Meanwhile, Protestants love to bring up religion whenever they have a chance. All in all, I would generalize that protestants take religion far too seriously.

Obviously, there are plenty of exceptions to my experiences.

 

[Kagom]

Anyone that encourages worship, rather than praise for their example, is a heretic. I was taught that, way back in the 60's. Same with Mary, she is a model, not a god, always was.

Exactly. If I recall correctly, worshipping of saints is excommunicatable, right?

 

[Annie]

Exactly. If I recall correctly, worshipping of saints is excommunicatable, right?

#1:

Catholic
Ten Commandments

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

 

[Kagom]

#1:

Catholic
Ten Commandments

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

I'm aware of that, but it is something that you can be excommunicated for, right?

 

[Said1]

Medieval/Renaissance is the time period I was addressing.

Are you're referring to the Sedeavacantists, or those who follow the old Latin mass and don't wish to follow the Novus Ordo? They may seem to take it "too far", but they're going on what they were taught in the Seminary.

No, I'm talking about the people who live accross the street and the nutty "brother" who leads their prayer group every Thursday for three. I'm talking about a babysitter I had who was constantly praying to Mary, cause she's a women and knows more than God or Jesus (her exact words). Knows what, I was never exactly sure. She had pictures of Mary EVERYWHERE.

I've gone to many different Catholic churches and schools from here to Alberta. Many different thoughts and ideas, some good, some not so good, although I agree with what was posted with resepct to saints, they are examples of how to live life, draw inpiration etc, not Gods.

 

[Kagom]

No, I'm talking about the people who live accross the street and the nutty "brother" who leads their prayer group every Thursday for three. I'm talking about a babysitter I had who was constantly praying to Mary, cause she's a women and knows more than God or Jesus (her exact words). Knows what, I was never exactly sure. She had pictures of Mary EVERYWHERE.

I've gone to many different Catholic churches and schools from here to Alberta. Many different thoughts and ideas, some good, some not so good, although I agree with what was posted with resepct to saints, they are examples of how to live life, draw inpiration etc, not Gods.

Then those people are grossly misinformed about their faith, man. I may no longer be Catholic, but I still don't like to see people who are ignorant of anything on the level of religion.

Understandable. Some teach different things than others.

 

[Annie]

No, I'm talking about the people who live accross the street and the nutty "brother" who leads their prayer group every Thursday for three. I'm talking about a babysitter I had who was constantly praying to Mary, cause she's a women and knows more than God or Jesus (her exact words). Knows what, I was never exactly sure. She had pictures of Mary EVERYWHERE.

I've gone to many different Catholic churches and schools from here to Alberta. Many different thoughts and ideas, some good, some not so good, although I agree with what was posted with resepct to saints, they are examples of how to live life, draw inpiration etc, not Gods.

I've known Italians and Mexicans that paid extreme, (in my opinion) adoration to Mary. In no way did they put her on the level of God, their 'homage' was to acknowledge her saying, 'Yes' to God. They wished to emulate, not elevate her to god status.

 

[Said1]

I've known Italians and Mexicans that paid extreme, (in my opinion) adoration to Mary. In no way did they put her on the level of God, their 'homage' was to acknowledge her saying, 'Yes' to God. They wished to emulate, not elevate her to god status.

As do most people. Some don't, that's their problem. Life goes on.

 

[Annie]

As do most people. Some don't, that's their problem. Life goes on.

Seriously? You've met people that think Mary is a God?

 

[Gunny]

Seriously? You've met people that think Mary is a God?

It is a common fallacy that Catholics "worship Mary" and consider her a diety among the more fire-breathing fundamentalists. I doubt many REALLY believe it ... it's more like a "Bush lied" sort of thing.

I have to wonder where the original question comes from? I realize the Catholic Church is considered separate from Protestants, but I believe the fundamental belief held by both flavors that Christ is the Savior kind of speaks for itself.

 

[Said1]

Seriously? You've met people that think Mary is a God?

I didn't say they think she's God, although they pray to her and not God. I know lots of Catholics who pray to saints the same way people pray to God, some with more vigor than others. Meaning that some are looking for guidence, which is more or less acceptable and some are simply looking to get out of a jam......if you know what I mean. The lady who used to babysit me was clearly crazy. The others accross the street, including Brother John (or is it Jim?) are a part of group that is not exactly part of the church, but they still go the the english Catholic church on Sundays. I don't know where whatshisname fits it, but he has a collar, so I'll assume he's with the same churchas the rest of the group. You should see them do their '100 Hail Mary's'. Even my grandmother calls them fanatics, they are ex-members of her church.

 

[Annie]

It is a common fallacy that Catholics "worship Mary" and consider her a diety among the more fire-breathing fundamentalists. I doubt many REALLY believe it ... it's more like a "Bush lied" sort of thing.

I have to wonder where the original question comes from? I realize the Catholic Church is considered separate from Protestants, but I believe the fundamental belief held by both flavors that Christ is the Savior kind of speaks for itself.

Leftover from Reformation, not that that stops many from hurling the accusation.