Another free market fail as Britain nationalises the railways

[Silver Cat]

Well damn! Seems like there are some people that don't know what a Free Market is.

Here is a definition I found from the net:

An economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

You see, this term "unrestricted competition" means, that sides can buy services of "limiters of those freedoms".

 

[JoeMoma]

Well damn! Seems like there are some people that don't know what a Free Market is.

Here is a definition I found from the net:

An economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

You see, this term "unrestricted competition" means, that sides can buy services of "limiters of those freedoms".

No I don't see. Not sure what you are "talking" about.

 

[Silver Cat]

Well damn! Seems like there are some people that don't know what a Free Market is.

Here is a definition I found from the net:

An economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

You see, this term "unrestricted competition" means, that sides can buy services of "limiters of those freedoms".

No I don't see. Not sure what you are "talking" about.

It's simple. If our competition is absolutely unrestricted, we can send guys with guns to our competitors.

 

[Gdjjr]

Your theory doesn't fit the reality.You are looking at the situation through an American prism.

Top down is top down even through a prism.

 

[Gdjjr]

Free markets don't exist without government....and never has existed without government.....

Can you provide evidence of that? Free is unencumbered. Gov't controls, which encumbers so in that regard you're correct.

 

[Gdjjr]

It's simple. If our competition is absolutely unrestricted, we can send guys with guns to our competitors.

And when they see you coming they can shoot you on sight.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

Free markets don't exist without government....and never has existed without government.....

Can you provide evidence of that? Free is unencumbered. Gov't controls, which encumbers so in that regard you're correct.

If I am correct, why would I need to provide anymore evidence than that?

I assume you call yourself a libertarian -- I won't even bother to ask what type of libertarian -- because there are 932879 different types of libertarian....basically a new brand of libertarian is created every 5 seconds or as I like to say -- every time they realize their delusions won't work in reality......

 

[Gdjjr]

I assume you call yourself a libertarian -- I won't even bother to ask what type of libertarian -- because there are 932879 different types of libertarian....basically a new brand of libertarian is created every 5 seconds or as I like to say -- every time they realize their delusions won't work in reality......

Yes, I am libertarian- of the NAP variety. That's Non Aggression Principle, which equates to, in this conversation, not using force to make a trade. Your using straw man arguments and pejorative comments out of, it seems, ignorance because you feel you're right.
Free is unencumbered. Gov't creates encumbersome regulations. That trade couldn't occur without being encumbered (restricted) by one with no skin in the game (bureaucrats) is a foolish "assumption".
If you would read of our founding, with an open mind, vs an ingrained totalitarian belief, you would recognize why our gov't was created granting certain power/authority, a part of which was to help trade not be given a legal advantage by a gov't representative from one district to another.

BTW, Rome didn't cover the entire globe, just a sliver of it. Debasing it's currency, and it's authoritarian religious proclamations is what led to its demise.

Indians here traded without a central interventionist. Money: The History of the Man-Made Invention of Money

Trade can occur unencumbered. Period. Gov't encumbers. Period. To extrapolate that it can't happen w/o gov't is ignorance and fear or intentional obtuseness.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

I assume you call yourself a libertarian -- I won't even bother to ask what type of libertarian -- because there are 932879 different types of libertarian....basically a new brand of libertarian is created every 5 seconds or as I like to say -- every time they realize their delusions won't work in reality......

Yes, I am libertarian- of the NAP variety. That's Non Aggression Principle, which equates to, in this conversation, not using force to make a trade. Your using straw man arguments and pejorative comments out of, it seems, ignorance because you feel you're right.
Free is unencumbered. Gov't creates encumbersome regulations. That trade couldn't occur without being encumbered (restricted) by one with no skin in the game (bureaucrats) is a foolish "assumption".
If you would read of our founding, with an open mind, vs an ingrained totalitarian belief, you would recognize why our gov't was created granting certain power/authority, a part of which was to help trade not be given a legal advantage by a gov't representative from one district to another.

BTW, Rome didn't cover the entire globe, just a sliver of it. Debasing it's currency, and it's authoritarian religious proclamations is what led to its demise.

Indians here traded without a central interventionist. Money: The History of the Man-Made Invention of Money

Trade can occur unencumbered. Period. Gov't encumbers. Period. To extrapolate that it can't happen w/o gov't is ignorance and fear or intentional obtuseness.

without the monopolization of force, who enforces contracts??

Do you just have your own court and if the other party don't like that court's decision, they have their own court...then it becomes a matter of who has the most "power"??

All roads to your liberatarian utopia leads thru anarchy and feudalism first -- which is why libertarianism is about as meaningful as claiming you are a Jedi.....

 

[CWayne]

Another free market fail as Britain nationalises the railways…

Not a free market fail.

A British fail.

Absolutely right. When the government doesn't allow the free market to be the free market, don't go blaming failure on the free market.

Free markets don't exist without government....and never has existed without government.....

free markets have been around longer than any government,,,

Please tell me a time where a free market existed without government...


How did this free market enforce contracts? How did this free market establish property rights??

I'll wait

the first time two humans traded for goods there were no such thing as governments,,,

and back then a handshake was enough,,,

First of all...this barter system you are talking about is not a free market and not a single person on Earth aside from a few delusional pseudo-libertarians would want a barter system....so that's a fail...

And even this barter economy is itself mostly fantasy...

"various anthropologists have pointed out that this barter economy has never been witnessed as researchers have traveled to undeveloped parts of the globe. “No example of a barter economy, pure and simple, has ever been described, let alone the emergence from it of money,” wrote the Cambridge anthropology professor Caroline Humphrey in a 1985 paper. “All available ethnography suggests that there never has been such a thing.”

The Myth of the Barter Economy

Adam Smith said that quid-pro-quo exchange systems preceded economies based on currency, but there’s no evidence that he was right.

www.theatlantic.com

So we should do away with patents, copyrights, etc -- and just rely on a handshake?

the barter system is what we do today,,,
we trade money that represents our labor in exchange for things we want or need,,,

Why does that money have value?? Is it because you can pay your taxes with it?? Basically you are trying to defend this imaginary barter system by using government tender for payment...adorable...

that money has value because I earned it,, it wasnt given to me for nothing

so you think money just exists in nature and gets its value because it just has natural value?? No...it has its value because you can pay taxes with it......

There is a reason why most developed countries in the world for the past 2000 years centered their societies around the monopolization of force -- because it works better than feudalism and anarchy -- and definitely works better than this barter economy that you still can't show me any evidence of

It does NOT have value because you can pay taxes on it.

What an absolutely ludicrous claim.

The fiat money we have has value because we determine that it is valued by society (Not government) and has steadily loss value over time. I'd say educate yourself on the difference between money and currency, but that will never happen on your part.

BTW....the government just added in one fell swoop, 2+ trillion dollars of more debt. How's that money looking to you now?

 

[Gdjjr]

without the monopolization of force, who enforces contracts??

Do you just have your own court and if the other party don't like that court's decision, they have their own court...then it becomes a matter of who has the most "power"??

All roads to your liberatarian utopia leads thru anarchy and feudalism first -- which is why libertarianism is about as meaningful as claiming you are a Jedi.....

None of that has anything to do with how I replied to you.

 

[Yarddog]

You pseudo-libertarians are funny......because there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING stopping you from proving how everyone else is wrong -- and how this barter libertarian economy is more superior.....just go start your own country or maybe just a little island, call it a seastead or whatever....then you can prove all of the rest of the world wrong....oh wait!

"In 2008, Thiel, a billionaire investor and Trump transition team member, launched a mission to develop a floating city, called a seastead, that would operate independently from existing nations. Thiel invested $1.7 million in The Seasteading Institute, but resigned from its board in 2011. He later said in an interview that engineering seasteads is "not quite feasible."

A Silicon Valley billionaire's dream of a floating libertarian utopia may have finally been killed

The Seasteading Institute wants to build a floating libertarian utopia in the middle of the ocean. But a key partner has pulled out of the plans.

www.businessinsider.com

"Not quite feasible" is always something libertarians are forced to concede when their delusions have to face reality....

No one is asking for some fantasy free market economy. We all realize the necessity for a sane government. People are simply responding to this statement by YOU

Free markets don't exist without government....and never has existed without government.....

and you still haven't shown me this free market....

I back up everything I say....all you have to do is post a link that backs up your assertion...

Here is an example of me posting a link that backs up my assertion...

"Trade did occur in non-monetary societies, but not among fellow villagers. Instead, it was used almost exclusively with strangers, or even enemies, where it was often accompanied by complex rituals involving trade, dance, feasting, mock fighting, or sex—and sometimes all of them intertwined."

You can either refute it with sourced information or you can't -- either way -- there is no free market...........that is a fantasy...

Yes there was a free market system throughout Africa. There was No government telling them,for instance the price of a roll of Kente cloth... it was completely up to the makers of the cloth to haggle a price with the Dutch trader or whoever else. And yes, they were often given beads for textiles, animals, slaves, and anything else European traders wanted.
The fact that this market may have been more in the macro sense, makes it no less of a market system. Those beads were then circulated all over Africa through further trading among tribes. Again, there was no government agency telling them the cost or price of things, who to hire, who to fire, etc..

We have a free market system here in the US but it is with restrictions, the fact that it is not a pure free market system does not make it a state run system. The comparison would be to a place like Cuba, where things are more state run and controlled than they are free.
You really cant tell the difference? Who tells McDonalds how much to charge for a hamburger? is it the Federal government? or is the price set by trying to stay competative with every other fast food restaurant.

Who is it thats asking to go back to a barter system? I missed that.

Trade beads - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The success of this form of currency can largely be attributed to the high intrinsic value African people put upon decorative items. Glassmaking was not common in Africa.[1] Africans often used beads for currency (often referred to as african money).[4] and wealth storage, and social status could be easily determined by the quality, quantity and style of jewellery worn. This created a high demand for trade beads in Africa.