America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Gdjjr]

What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism

 

[Gdjjr]

Calvinism (also called the Reformed tradition, Reformed Christianity, Reformed Protestantism, or the Reformed faith) is a major branch of Protestantism that follows the theological tradition and forms of Christian practice set down by John Calvin and other Reformation-era theologians.

BTW, John Calvin was merely a man with an esoteric bent. The point being: Knowledge evolves. Truth is constant- Truth is; all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- rights are inherent- call them what you will; endowed by their Creator was the agreed on phrase- arguing disrespectfully is disrespectful regardless of the excuse (justification)-

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23942509

He found one Founder that had an odd belief, and he is presuming to judge him NOT a Christian, and that somehow, proves something?

.

I do not judge Jefferson not a Christian. I take him at his word. He has written that he considered himself among many things to be a REAL CHRISTIAN which I have posted the full evidence of that.

However I know that Jefferson also defines EXACTLY what he meant being a REAL Christian should be.

It is rejecting Christendom while living a life according to the direct moral teachings of a very human Jesus of Nazareth.

• “We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe: for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition.11. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=288

Jefferson also claimed to be a Unitarian. My wife of twenty absolutely happy and fulfilling years were married in a Unitarian Church

We are making plans right now with our daughter to get married in the Same Unitarian Church this year.

Jefferson is important to the topic of this thread not because of what he believes, but because of what Porter Rockwell believes about him.

i believe Rockwell argues that Jefferson was a Christian. My philosophy of life is quite similar to Jefferson’s except I am not as harsh on the Church as he was. I think the moral teachings of a human named Jesus are an excellent choice to follow:

And since we have read Rockwell’s hope for all Christians.

"Christians" would not run around saying that a Mormon cannot be a Christian or the Jehovah's Witness cannot be a Christian, or Christian Identity people can't be Christians, that Unitarians are not Christians... they would respect each other's differences.”

(I would take the Christian Identity people out of my own rendition of this.)

I am hoping to wait to see if Porter Rockwell is willing to follow his own guide and begin to respect our differences as we continue this discussion.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The liberals like to have this debate until we actually have one. I did find it amusing that every time I've gotten into this discussion the critics wanted to guess my denomination and how right they thought they were.

The reality is, if you go to church and read the Bible while studying both the sermons you hear preached as well as the Bible, you will begin to have differences with every denomination out there. Most believers just decide to find a denomination that they can agree with most of the time and stick to it. With me, there was a man who had one theme consistent with what the colonists, founders and framers believed. His name isn't important, but according to Wikipedia:

"The (television) program would eventually expand to 382 U.S. television stations, and 36 television outlets internationally, dwarfing televangelists Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, and Jim Bakker." In that same Wikipedia article, the pastor was reputed to have " warned the Church that "vultures" were waiting for him to die. He was deeply concerned that dangerous liberal elements would enter in after his death and that the Church (thought to then be of 'Philadelphia' characteristics, Book of Rev. 2:7-14)"

And so his major theme fell by the wayside after his departure from this earth with political extremists seizing on his major theme. That church only exists nominally now. Today, if you accept his primary premise, mainstream will claim you are not a Christian. So, in my lifetime I've witnessed the same thing Jefferson went through as recently as the mid 1980s. That was a pointless argument on this thread, but a situation I can relate to.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23942509

He found one Founder that had an odd belief, and he is presuming to judge him NOT a Christian, and that somehow, proves something?

.

I do not judge Jefferson not a Christian. I take him at his word. He has written that he considered himself among many things to be a REAL CHRISTIAN which I have posted the full evidence of that.

However I know that Jefferson also defines EXACTLY what he meant being a REAL Christian should be.

It is rejecting Christendom while living a life according to the direct moral teachings of a very human Jesus of Nazareth.

“We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe: for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition.11. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=288
Jefferson also claimed to be a Unitarian. My wife of twenty absolutely happy and fulfilling years were married in a Unitarian Church

We are making plans right now with our daughter to get married in the Same Unitarian Church this year.

Jefferson is important to the topic of this thread not because of what he believes, but because of what Porter Rockwell believes about him.

i believe Rockwell argues that Jefferson was a Christian. My philosophy of life is quite similar to Jefferson’s except I am not as harsh on the Church as he was. I think the moral teachings of a human named Jesus are an excellent choice to follow:

And since we have read Rockwell’s hope for all Christians.

"Christians" would not run around saying that a Mormon cannot be a Christian or the Jehovah's Witness cannot be a Christian, or Christian Identity people can't be Christians, that Unitarians are not Christians... they would respect each other's differences.”

(I would take the Christian Identity people out of my own rendition of this.)

I am hoping to wait to see if Porter Rockwell is willing to follow his own guide and begin to redirect our differences as we continue this discussion.

For me, there is no discussion. You presume to decide who is and is not a Christian. I had a face to face dispute with a guy named Jeromy Visser a couple of months ago. He is an Identity Christian. He and I have some serious issues and he has issues with other Identity Christians. Identity (sic) is a movement, not a denomination with millions of people accepting some major themes within "Identity" (most without realizing it.) Even they have a Right to call themselves Christian.

You cannot accept the primary premise that all Christians are on an equal footing, so your wars are against certain denominations. I see the people from other denominations and see both good and bad in them. There are things that I like about the Mormons and Catholics; things that are good within "Identity." I even have some spirited talks with Jehovah Witness adherents when they knock on the door. I don't believe what they believe, except for acknowledging a Christian God.

My Bible teaches to “Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:” Proverbs 25: 9

There is a world of difference between Christian principles and religion. That is why we can agree on primary principles without creating a theocracy. But, if you love secularism so much, maybe in a couple of election cycles the Muslims can convince unbelievers to do things like cutting the fingers then hands of thieves and cut the tongues out of liars. Be careful of what you wish for.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You presume to decide who is and is not a Christian

That is not true.

i don’t Limit myself to such labels label but based your statements so far, Jefferson qualifies in your mind to accept that he a was a Christian.

My beliefs are similar to Jefferson’s. Are you deciding that I am not a Christian but Jefferson was?

 

[Correll]

23942509

He found one Founder that had an odd belief, and he is presuming to judge him NOT a Christian, and that somehow, proves something?

.

I do not judge Jefferson not a Christian. I take him at his word. He has written that he considered himself among many things to be a REAL CHRISTIAN which I have posted the full evidence of that.

However I know that Jefferson also defines EXACTLY what he meant being a REAL Christian should be.

It is rejecting Christendom while living a life according to the direct moral teachings of a very human Jesus of Nazareth.

• “We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe: for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition.11. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=288

Jefferson also claimed to be a Unitarian. My wife of twenty absolutely happy and fulfilling years were married in a Unitarian Church

We are making plans right now with our daughter to get married in the Same Unitarian Church this year.

Jefferson is important to the topic of this thread not because of what he believes, but because of what Porter Rockwell believes about him.

i believe Rockwell argues that Jefferson was a Christian. My philosophy of life is quite similar to Jefferson’s except I am not as harsh on the Church as he was. I think the moral teachings of a human named Jesus are an excellent choice to follow:

And since we have read Rockwell’s hope for all Christians.

"Christians" would not run around saying that a Mormon cannot be a Christian or the Jehovah's Witness cannot be a Christian, or Christian Identity people can't be Christians, that Unitarians are not Christians... they would respect each other's differences.”

(I would take the Christian Identity people out of my own rendition of this.)

I am hoping to wait to see if Porter Rockwell is willing to follow his own guide and begin to respect our differences as we continue this discussion.

That is all irrelevant crap. Your personal opinion that Jefferson was not a "Christian" is utterly irrelevant to anything.


YOu are so far from proving any relevant point with that, that it is not worth going into.

 

[Correll]

You presume to decide who is and is not a Christian

That is not true.

i don’t Limit myself to such labels label but based your statements so far, Jefferson qualifies in your mind to accept that he a was a Christian.

My beliefs are similar to Jefferson’s. Are you deciding that I am not a Christian but Jefferson was?

Dude. ALL you have, is your little game with labels.


This is you losing. THat all the other libs have fled the thread, is you libs losing.


This nation was founded as a Christian Nation.


THAT POINT HAS BEEN SETTLED.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You presume to decide who is and is not a Christian

That is not true.

i don’t Limit myself to such labels label but based your statements so far, Jefferson qualifies in your mind to accept that he a was a Christian.

My beliefs are similar to Jefferson’s. Are you deciding that I am not a Christian but Jefferson was?

I do not get to decide who is and who is not a Christian. If a man tells me he is a Christian, that is his word. I am not his judge. His religion might be 180 degrees opposite of what I believe and he can still be a Christian.

Based on what I've read and experienced just in this thread, Jefferson ran across people like you and decided that people could call him whatever they liked, but he would continue being a Christian.

Atheists like that quote where Jefferson says it don't pick his pocket if a man says there is no God or twenty gods. I feel the same way. I accept Jesus as my personal savior and couldn't care less what people think. You have proclaimed Jefferson was not a Christian... at any time, under any circumstances. You've built half your argument on that and the other denigrating me. You cannot lie about me and then try to put me on the defensive. It's not going to work for you.

America is still not a theocracy and it was still founded as a Christian nation. Christians proclaimed Liberty and thanked God for every inch of progress they made in founding our principles.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Correll, post: 23944049

Your personal opinion that Jefferson was not a "Christian" is utterly irrelevant to anything.

I said he was a Real Christian since those are his own words. it’s not a personal opinion at all.

I also agree that my acceptance that Jefferson was a Real Christian is not the issue:

Jefferson is important to the topic of this thread not because of what he believes, but because of what Porter Rockwell believes about him.

Porter Rockwell cited the same posts as me to prove that Jefferson was a REAL CHRISTIAN.

And Porter Rockwell says Christians should not question whether Christians are Christians.

It’s also important to know that Porter Rockwell does not expect Jefferson and all of similar philosophy and values to belong to a Christian sect or denomination.

So it should be fair to say that Jefferson is a Christian unto himself.

At the time of the founding the dominate denomination in Colonial America was Protestant in some form or the other.

But in the rest of the world the dominate church in all of Christendom was Catholicism.

Protestants in Early America feared and loathed Catholicism. There was no respect for each other’s differences.

Jefferson was non-denominational. definitely outnumbered by Protestants but not Catholics.

Therefore if there is a need to label America’s founding on its religious majority it would have been at that time only proper to say that America was a Protestant Christian Nation.

It would not be accurate on many grounds but mainly because calling it a Christian Nation that was 98% Protestant when the majority of Christians in the world were not Protestant.

And it would not be accurate now just because Jefferson’s Separation of Church and State has enabled Catholics and Protestants to live together in harmony.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Correll, post: 23944049

Your personal opinion that Jefferson was not a "Christian" is utterly irrelevant to anything.

I said he was a Real Christian since those are his own words. it’s not a personal opinion at all.

I also agree that my acceptance that Jefferson was a Real Christian is not the issue:

Jefferson is important to the topic of this thread not because of what he believes, but because of what Porter Rockwell believes about him.

Porter Rockwell cited the same posts as me to prove that Jefferson was a REAL CHRISTIAN.

And Porter Rockwell says Christians should not question whether Christians are Christians.

It’s also important to know that Porter Rockwell does not expect Jefferson and all of similar philosophy and values to belong to a Christian sect or denomination.

So it should be fair to say that Jefferson is a Christian unto himself.

At the time of the founding the dominate denomination in Colonial America was Protestant in some form or the other.

But in the rest of the world the dominate church in all of Christendom was Catholicism.

Protestants in Early America feared and loathed Catholicism. There was no respect for each other’s differences.

Jefferson was non-denominational. definitely outnumbered by Protestants but not Catholics.

Therefore if there is a need to label America’s founding on its religious majority it would have been at that time only proper to say that America was a Protestant Christian Nation.

It would not be accurate on many grounds but mainly because calling it a Christian Nation that was 98% Protestant when the majority of Christians in the world were not Protestant.

And it would not be accurate now just because Jefferson’s Separation of Church and State has enabled Catholics and Protestants to live together in harmony.

I have not used the terminology of "REAL CHRISTIANS." NO POST that I have attempts to prove the faith of Thomas Jefferson. I posted what he said about himself.

You can question the faith of others all you like. The FEDERAL Constitution of the United States mandates that no religious test can be administered for office holders; however, politicians were given an oath and most STATE constitutions required candidates to take an oath stating that they believe.

The separation of church and state was a statement made in a private letter to the Danbury Baptists. It meant exactly 180 degrees opposite of what you claim for two reasons:

1) The federal government was NOT involved in the education of children and

2) Jefferson referred to a civil obligation (education) and was saying that the government would never tread into that civil duty.

The balance of what you say is utter nonsense. Thomas Jefferson is associated with the Christian faith as a politician as he supported (if not wrote) laws promoting the principles of Christianity within legislation (a point I've already proven with his work on the state constitution in Virginia.)

You need to do us all a favor and back away from your efforts to denigrate me. When accusing me, at least have the common courtesy to FULLY quote me. "Contextomy" is the term you used, was it not?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You can question the faith of others all you like.

I will say it a again. I do not and did not question the faith/philosophy belief of others. specifically those who wrote as much about as Jefferson did.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I have not used the terminology of "REAL CHRISTIANS." NO POST that I have attempts to prove the faith of Thomas Jefferson. I posted what he said about himself.

You and I both posted exactly the REAL
CHRISTIAN quote.

this troll is LYING, LYING, LYING. I will only respond to what I saw:


FACT: Thomas Jefferson self identified as a Christian. Yes, at points in his life he questioned religion, rejected a lot of it; however at points in his life he himself self identified as a Christian. So, what he a Christian? YES. Was he Christian at every point in his life? Maybe not. His childish outbursts and mood swings leaves one to wonder.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

I have no idea what your point is.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I have not used the terminology of "REAL CHRISTIANS." NO POST that I have attempts to prove the faith of Thomas Jefferson. I posted what he said about himself.

You and I both posted exactly the REAL
CHRISTIAN quote.

this troll is LYING, LYING, LYING. I will only respond to what I saw:


FACT: Thomas Jefferson self identified as a Christian. Yes, at points in his life he questioned religion, rejected a lot of it; however at points in his life he himself self identified as a Christian. So, what he a Christian? YES. Was he Christian at every point in his life? Maybe not. His childish outbursts and mood swings leaves one to wonder.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

I have no idea what your point is.

My only point is that America was founded as a Christian nation, not a theocracy, but a nation predicated on Christian principles, values, and system of jurisprudence.

Your point was to infer that I was arguing for a theocracy. When that didn't work, you wanted us to believe that our nation was founded on the false religion of secularism. That failed and you began a personal attack, even calling me a liar. You then accused me of dishonesty based on textonomy while yourself quoting only the amount of passages of Jefferson's words as would prove your position. I gave reference to the entire source from whence my quotes came from.

When professional historians cannot tell you with absolute certainty precisely what Jefferson thought (as his positions were always evolving) I made note of it AND told you that a man is known by the company he keeps. Since Jefferson supported legislation that specifically put the word Christianity in it, IF I'm judging the man, it is based on the laws he supported and the people he kept as friends.

I found that Jefferson was but one person and 55 other signers of the Declaration of Independence were left out as were all the people involved in the creation of the document we call the Constitution of the United States. I still did not call Jefferson anything except what he called himself AND proved by the other laws that he was associated with. At every point you have failed to acknowledge that. At every point you refused to answer my questions, though I was courteous enough to answer your questions. Your intent was to be my judge, jury and executioner. Your intent on this thread was to pretend to be a professional interrogator, but others here prevented it.

In the years I've been on the Internet, this is the first time that the non-believers were not allowed to bulldoze the Christians and the facts be put on the table. ding and Correll and probably a few others (I participate in too many threads to know who said what in each one) have held your feet to the fire and if you were smart, you would realize that I've tried to be fair, balanced and honest with you.

That was my point. By now, other posters have explained this to you far better than I could have. So, it's time to just accept the intent of the original premise. Your theories were refuted by a lot of different people on this thread.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23945354

Your point was to infer that I was arguing for a theocracy.

i never ever dreamed of accusing you of arguing for a theocracy. There is no argument there. Anyone who thinks you are is absurd

My argument is in large part related to crediting the actual Founders along with an emphasis on their education and intellects and rational minds for doing the actual work that was done to establish a nation that was designed by their collective, - genius - Being here at the right place and time,

I in no way intended to exclude the role of personal religion in each one of those brilliant minds. But I think someone needs to challenge the mindset that by virtue of the religious majority of Protestant Christians being ‘present’
at a unique juncture in time means that one that particular religion gets all the credit in a ‘thread title’ insisting that America was Founded as a Christian Nation.

 

[Gdjjr]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I see nothing about a nation or a religion. I do see a coming together to form a more perfect union- we all, it seems, over use and over play "founding"- this coming together to form a more perfect union is what they did- and agreed to the words above- more perfect is ambiguous and subjective all in the same breath- "a nation" denotes one- there were separate states, thought to be sovereign- separate is not one- a union is a common word used to describe a coming together- this country was/is referred to as the United States of America- states is plural.
As Porter has pointed out about the 14th amendment it could be argued we became The State of America- the pledge of allegiance pretty well sealed the deal- one nation, under God- that is a state sanctioned/approved religious belief some would say a Christian belief- which the "founders" chose not to do, illustrated by the Declaration of Independence, to which they agreed- word smiths all.

 

[ding]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I see nothing about a nation or a religion. I do see a coming together to form a more perfect union- we all, it seems, over use and over play "founding"- this coming together to form a more perfect union is what they did- and agreed to the words above- more perfect is ambiguous and subjective all in the same breath- "a nation" denotes one- there were separate states, thought to be sovereign- separate is not one- a union is a common word used to describe a coming together- this country was/is referred to as the United States of America- states is plural.
As Porter has pointed out about the 14th amendment it could be argued we became The State of America- the pledge of allegiance pretty well sealed the deal- one nation, under God- that is a state sanctioned/approved religious belief some would say a Christian belief- which the "founders" chose not to do, illustrated by the Declaration of Independence, to which they agreed- word smiths all.

Probably because we weren’t founded as a theocracy or establish a national religion.

I don’t see how that changes the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation based upon Christian values and principles. Not religious dogma per se but the successful behaviors which Western Civilization was built upon.

 

[ding]

23945354

Your point was to infer that I was arguing for a theocracy.

i never ever dreamed of accusing you of arguing for a theocracy. There is no argument there. Anyone who thinks you are is absurd

My argument is in large part related to crediting the actual Founders along with an emphasis on their education and intellects and rational minds for doing the actual work that was done to establish a nation that was designed by their collective, - genius - Being here at the right place and time,

I in no way intended to exclude the role of personal religion in each one of those brilliant minds. But I think someone needs to challenge the mindset that by virtue of the religious majority of Protestant Christians being ‘present’
at a unique juncture in time means that one that particular religion gets all the credit in a ‘thread title’ insisting that America was Founded as a Christian Nation.

But not credit their belief in a higher power as a powerful motivation to do the right thing, the right way for the right reason?

Have you read Locke per chance?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I don’t see how that changes the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation based upon Christian values and principles.

Which is idiotic nonsense, as Christianity holds no providence over any bit of morality, anywhere. What made us better than other countries, of course, was the deference to secular and scientific enlightenment, instead of deference to iron age hoo-ha.

"Hey look, a Christian built a bicycle. That bicycle must have been founded on Christianity!"

 

[ding]

I don’t see how that changes the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation based upon Christian values and principles.

Which is idiotic nonsense, as Christianity holds no providence over any bit of morality, anywhere. What made us better than other countries, of course, was the deference to secular and scientific enlightenment, instead of deference to iron age hoo-ha.

"Hey look, a Christian built a bicycle. That bicycle must have been founded on Christianity!"

All products of a Christian people.

The fact that you don’t understand the importance of good manners and virtuous behaviors isn’t a surprise to me given the way you behave.

The irony is that your righteous indignation proves you believe in absolute truth and right and wrong.