A "The Deep State" Discussion

[georgephillip]

The term Deep State has become popular in recent times

Some consider it a shadow governance , some monetary influence , and of course the partisans blame that 'other party'

Myself, i consider it a symptom of an American identity crisis

~S~

Some consider it a shadow governance , some monetary influence , and of course the partisans blame that 'other party'

Myself, i consider it a symptom of an American identity crisis

Chris Hedges offers the Afghanistan Papers and Trump's impeachment as examples of Deep State hypocrisy spanning multiple generations and both major political parties:

The Impeachment's Moral Hypocrisy

"Trump and his supporters are not wrong in condemning the deep state—the generals, bankers, corporatists, lobbyists, intelligence chiefs, government bureaucrats and technocrats who oversee domestic and international policy no matter who is in power.

"The Afghanistan Papers, while detailing the quagmire in Afghanistan—where more than 775,000 Americans were deployed over the 18 years, more than 2,300 soldiers and Marines killed and more than 20,000 wounded—also illustrate how seamlessly the two ruling parties and the deep state work together."

I could not possibly have stated it better George....

~S~

I could not possibly have stated it better George..

I've noticed Chris Hedges often writes what I wish I could write, Sparky

The Impeachment's Moral Hypocrisy

"The impeachment process was a nauseating display of moral hypocrisy. The sound bites by Republicans and Democrats swiftly became predictable.

"The Democrats, despite applauding the announcement of the voting results before being quickly silenced by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, sought to cloak themselves in gravitas and solemnity.

"Pelosi’s calculated decision to open the impeachment proceedings with the 1954 'under God' version of the Pledge of Allegiance was an appropriate signal given the party’s New McCarthyism."

 

[georgephillip]

There is no Deep State

Discussion closed

What explains eternal war and endless debt from one generation to the next if not a ruling elite indifferent to election outcomes?

The Impeachment's Moral Hypocrisy

"The Republican and Democratic politicians, like the generals, government bureaucrats and intelligence chiefs, once they leave their government posts will be generously rewarded by being given jobs as lobbyists and consultants or being appointed to corporate boards.

"These politicians are the mutant products of our system of legalized bribery, shameless kleptocrats.

"The only interests they serve are their own.

"This truth binds half the country to Trump, who although a con artist and himself flagrantly corrupt, at least belittles and mocks the ruling elites who have betrayed us."

 

[georgephillip]

An alternate explanation that doesn't require a deep, dark conspiracy ....

Government people really suck at their jobs. Admittedly, most people suck at their jobs, but government people don't get sacked for it.

That argument made more sense before Trump became part of government, but I see the logic.

Deep state - Wikipedia

"A deep state (from Turkish: derin devlet), also known as a state within a state, is a form of clandestine government made up of hidden or covert networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership, in pursuit of their own agenda and goals.

"Examples include organs of state, such as the armed forces or public authorities (intelligence agencies, police, secret police, administrative agencies, and government bureaucracy).

"A deep state can also take the form of entrenched, career civil servants acting in a non-conspiratorial manner, to further their own interests."

 

[rightwinger]

Where was the Deep State when Obama was President?

 

[candycorn]

John Brennan's CIA Trump Task Force
Could it become Obamagate?

There is considerable evidence that the American system of government may have been victimized by an illegal covert operation organized and executed by the U.S. intelligence and national security community. Former Director of National Intelligence Jim Clapper, former CIA Director John Brennan and former FBI Director Jim Comey appear to have played critical leadership roles in carrying out this conspiracy and they may not have operated on their own. Almost certainly what they may have done would have been explicitly authorized by the former President of the United States, Barack Obama, and his national security team.
.............

Personally, I think the whole of DC is corrupt. Less or more is immaterial and akin to "he did it first (or worse) mommy.

none of that happened

 

[Zorro!]

John Brennan's CIA Trump Task Force
Could it become Obamagate?

There is considerable evidence that the American system of government may have been victimized by an illegal covert operation organized and executed by the U.S. intelligence and national security community. Former Director of National Intelligence Jim Clapper, former CIA Director John Brennan and former FBI Director Jim Comey appear to have played critical leadership roles in carrying out this conspiracy and they may not have operated on their own. Almost certainly what they may have done would have been explicitly authorized by the former President of the United States, Barack Obama, and his national security team.
.............

Personally, I think the whole of DC is corrupt. Less or more is immaterial and akin to "he did it first (or worse) mommy.

none of that happened

The hell it didn't. What the FBI did to Carter Page in order to illegally spy on the Trump Campaign, Transition and Administration is a travesty and a dire threat to our system of self-government.

Counter Intelligence has a singular purpose, to inform the President of foreign threats. Clearly this operation was under the color of counter-intelligence, are you arguing that FBI went completely rogue and undertook a counter-intelligence effort against Trump without the knowledge of President Obama?

 

[RealDave]

Deep State hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[georgephillip]

Where was the Deep State when Obama was President?

Protecting him from impeachment after ordering the assassinations of a US citizen (Anwar al-Awlaki) and his 16 year-old son or signing into law Section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act?

The Impeachment's Moral Hypocrisy

If "deep state" refers to corporate collusion and cronyism functioning as a king of hybrid association of government, finance, and industry capable of effectively ruling the US without any input from the formal political process, that might explain why Bush and Obama were able to avoid impeachment for their ostensible Constitutional transgressions?

Deep state in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[rightwinger]

Where was the Deep State when Obama was President?

Protecting him from impeachment after ordering the assassinations of a US citizen (Anwar al-Awlaki) and his 16 year-old son or signing into law Section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act?

The Impeachment's Moral Hypocrisy

If "deep state" refers to corporate collusion and cronyism functioning as a king of hybrid association of government, finance, and industry capable of effectively ruling the US without any input from the formal political process, that might explain why Bush and Obama were able to avoid impeachment for their ostensible Constitutional transgressions?

Deep state in the United States - Wikipedia

Nobody knows what the Deep State is, or who is in charge, or how they communicate or who is in it

But they know we have one

 

[candycorn]

John Brennan's CIA Trump Task Force
Could it become Obamagate?

There is considerable evidence that the American system of government may have been victimized by an illegal covert operation organized and executed by the U.S. intelligence and national security community. Former Director of National Intelligence Jim Clapper, former CIA Director John Brennan and former FBI Director Jim Comey appear to have played critical leadership roles in carrying out this conspiracy and they may not have operated on their own. Almost certainly what they may have done would have been explicitly authorized by the former President of the United States, Barack Obama, and his national security team.
.............

Personally, I think the whole of DC is corrupt. Less or more is immaterial and akin to "he did it first (or worse) mommy.

none of that happened

The hell it didn't. What the FBI did to Carter Page in order to illegally spy on the Trump Campaign, Transition and Administration is a travesty and a dire threat to our system of self-government.

Counter Intelligence has a singular purpose, to inform the President of foreign threats. Clearly this operation was under the color of counter-intelligence, are you arguing that FBI went completely rogue and undertook a counter-intelligence effort against Trump without the knowledge of President Obama?

lol...

spy?


No, they were conducting surveillance on criminals.

you guys throwing that term around is hilarious

 

[georgephillip]

Where was the Deep State when Obama was President?

Protecting him from impeachment after ordering the assassinations of a US citizen (Anwar al-Awlaki) and his 16 year-old son or signing into law Section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act?

The Impeachment's Moral Hypocrisy

If "deep state" refers to corporate collusion and cronyism functioning as a king of hybrid association of government, finance, and industry capable of effectively ruling the US without any input from the formal political process, that might explain why Bush and Obama were able to avoid impeachment for their ostensible Constitutional transgressions?

Deep state in the United States - Wikipedia

Nobody knows what the Deep State is, or who is in charge, or how they communicate or who is in it

But they know we have one

Nobody knows what the Deep State is, or who is in charge, or how they communicate or who is in it

But they know we have one

We have a moneyed, propertied, aristocracy today that is not very different from those serving the Divine Right of Kings.

Imho, corporate aristocrats (shareholders) buy and sell political hacks like Bush and Clinton and Obama in order to influence public policy and use national security and intelligence aspects to ensure their own economic interests are served regardless of which hack sits in the White House.

https://www.corporation2020.org/corporation2020/documents/Resources/Kelly.pdf

"To judge by the current arrangement in corporate America, one might suppose capital creates wealth—which is strange, because a pile of capital sitting there creates nothing.

"Yet capital providers—stockholders—lay claim to most wealth that public corporations generate.

"Corporations are believed to exist to maximize returns to shareholders.

"This is the law of the land, much as the divine right of kings was once the law of the land.

"In the dominant paradigm of business, it is not in the least controversial. Though it should be."

The term "deep state" is probably a translation from the Turkish "derin devlet" where the military collaborated with organized crime to fight Kurdish insurgents.

Don't tell Trump.

Deep state in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[Gdjjr]

none of that happened

The author has, at least, some credibility- you, on the other have have what?

The author's website

Council for the National Interest | Information on the US connection to Israel-Palestine

Don't be afraid to educate yourself-

 

[candycorn]

none of that happened

The author has, at least, some credibility- you, on the other have have what?

The author's website

Council for the National Interest | Information on the US connection to Israel-Palestine

Don't be afraid to educate yourself-

None of what you allege happened; just like your colorful take on 9/11

 

[Gdjjr]

We have a moneyed, propertied, aristocracy today that is not very different from those serving the Divine Right of Kings.

I find it ironic that the founders waged wars and lost personal fortunes to rid itself of the crown ruling them- now our economic system is quasi- Keryesian, a British economist who designed a system for the British- implemented by, da-da- a Republican-

 

[georgephillip]

We have a moneyed, propertied, aristocracy today that is not very different from those serving the Divine Right of Kings.

I find it ironic that the founders waged wars and lost personal fortunes to rid itself of the crown ruling them- now our economic system is quasi- Keryesian, a British economist who designed a system for the British- implemented by, da-da- a Republican-

I find it ironic that the founders waged wars and lost personal fortunes to rid itself of the crown ruling them- now our economic system is quasi- Keryesian, a British economist who designed a system for the British- implemented by, da-da- a Republican-

I don't think the founders anticipated the rise of corporations:

https://www.corporation2020.org/corporation2020/documents/Resources/Kelly.pdf (P. 6)

"Major public corporations have evolved into something new in civilization—more massive, more powerful than our democratic forefathers dreamed possible.

"The major companies of their era, like the East India Company, were arms of the Crown. America was founded by similar, though smaller, Crown companies.

"The founding generation in America seemingly felt that in bringing the Crown to heel, they had immunized themselves from corporate predation.

"This may be the reason that they left us few tools, at the federal level, for governing corporations: the word corporation itself appears nowhere in the Constitution."

 

[Gdjjr]

None of what you allege happened; just like your colorful take on 9/11

There is credible evidence for both, you on the other hand have an uninformed opinion - that equals no credible evidence to support your uninformed beliefs- remaining an ignorant acolyte makes you a tool for reproduction of more ignorance in perpetuity- uninformed ignorance, in this day and time, is really sad- your descendants will pay the price- but, alas, you don't care about anything other than your self-adorned ignorance calling itself winning- a sad commentary on your life.

 

[Questioner]

Power has always had a tendency to corrupt, corrupt people in power is as old as human nature, such as Roman Emperors like Caligula and Nero (much as their are corrupt people with no political power in the civilized world such as murderer and rapist prison inmates).

So no, I don't fear any hypothetical "deep state", I think that knowledge is power.

 

[Gdjjr]

I don't think the founders anticipated the rise of corporations:

Oh, I don't know- they were men of vision, though not fortune tellers- they did set up a system of governance to help prevent tyranny by anyone thing, person or gov't.- they also believed that only virtuous men could ensure the help was used accordingly- virtue is a forgotten characteristic exemplified in empty suits DC- Ben Franklin believed that to win a heart the mind had to be intrigued- our minds have, collectively, been filled with vitriol, not intrigue- collectively being key- the collective, by definition, is disrespectful of the rights of the Individual- never mind Liberty which is an Individual attribute (right) -

That the constitution being usurped from the get-go seems to have made their efforts a lofty dream- as in, virtuous men were out numbered-

 

[August West]

Power has always had a tendency to corrupt, corrupt people in power is as old as human nature, such as Roman Emperors like Caligula and Nero (much as their are corrupt people with no political power in the civilized world such as murderer and rapist prison inmates).

So no, I don't fear any hypothetical "deep state", I think that knowledge is power.

You`ve got a polite way of saying these deep staters are kooks. I agree. Deep state sounds a lot better than saying that we`re ruled by a bogeyman.

 

[Gdjjr]

I think that knowledge is power.

Knowledge is great and can be powerful- depending on how it manifests itself- power is an ambiguous word- one man's trash is another man's treasure- there is but one thing we can do at this point in time to help the situation(s) the gov't puts us in.
The title assigned, e.g., Deep State, is immaterial- it is a collective of like minded totalitarian efforts who profit from from force-
Force is the root of ALL conflict- it is the epitome of immoral- sadly many approve, as long as it's their desires being forced- that is an Individual choice taken advantage of by a collective of profiteers-

That one thing which can be done about today's situation(s) presents a multi faceted endeavor: *Leave your space a little better than you found it*- you define a little better as ANY and ALL greater good is accomplished by and through Individual effort- effort is multi faceted generated by knowledge gained and founded on Truth- our founding philosophy- ALL men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights-