A question for Muslims

[Anguille]

specify the post

Post 85!!!!!!

Please take a break from your blathering to fix it. I don't want people to think I said the things you said.

Post 85 contains your quote, and my response.

Thanks for getting around to finally fixing it!!!

 

[PoliticalChic]

and "Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death."

I wish I had enough time to address the rest of your post and its many fallacies but I don't.

But concerning what you claim above. Why have none of my Muslim friends tried to convert me, subjugate me under Islamic Rule or kill me?

Why?

Because Muslims don't do stuff like that, only crazy people do.

If that kind of stuff was what average Muslims do then and seeing as the Muslim population of the world is enormous, please explain to me why the rest of us non Muslims are not dead?

It seems that you have neither the time nor the ability.

Quote is of the Koran, surely you've heard of it.

But if you'd like to try your luck, try moving to one of the many fundementalist Moslem nations, where you would be in the extreme minority.

How absurd to "Why have none of my Muslim friends tried to ..."!

Christian Evangelist Escapes His Kidnappers
Lay Pastor Beheaded, Widow Fears Reprisals From Murderers
Two Christian Health Workers Hacked to Death
Muslims Bent on Driving Christian Out, Gang-Rape 13-year-old Pastor’s Daughter
Muslims Fight to Keep Church out of Village, Pastor Threatened With Death
357 Hindu Temples Destroyed/Damaged in Bangladesh
Christian evangelist Stabbed to Death
Angry Mob Ransacks School, Churches in Bangladesh
Persecution on rise for Bangladesh Christians
Bangladesh: Bomb Kills Ten Christians
Christian Convert Doctor Killed By Jihadists
Bangladesh Baptist Pastor Killed by Extremists after Attempt to Share Faith
Tortured Hindus flee to India
300 Hindu families flee Bangladesh
Atrocities on Hindus 'documented'
Hindu Genocide in East Pakistan
Minority Hindus Being Persecuted In Bangladesh: US Report
Attacks on Hindu Minorities in Bangladesh
Hindus attacked in Bangladesh
Pastor's Wife Gang-Raped and Home Robbed
Muslim Pilgrims Beat Bible Student
Muslims Threaten Pastor (Previously beaten in a mosque) For Evangelizing
Muslim Terrorists Storm and Desecrate Hindu Temple
Catholic Chef Jailed For Possession of Alcohol
Belgium
Violent Rioters Enter Jewish Quarter of Antwerp During Anti Israel Demonstration Carrying Hamas Flags
Belgian Islamist group targeted six Jews
Group of Jewish Teens Attacked by Young Muslims in Northeast Belgium
More Anti-Jewish Rioting by Largely Muslim Crowd In Belgium
Jews Attacked by Steel Bar Weilding Muslim Screaming "Allahu Akbar" in 3 Seperate Incidents
Bosnia
Muslims Attack Gays at Bosnia's gay festival
Terrorism Expert Receives Death Threat From Alleged Extremists in Bosnia
Brunei
Four Christians Released, While Three remain in detention For Alleged "Cult" Activities
Christians Face Continued Government Intimidation
Canada
Man Sentenced For Firebombing Jewish Institutions
Man guilty in plot to behead Canada's leader
Chad
Northern Churches Face Persecution
Islam is Splitting Villages, Churches and Families
Church Threatened with Closure
A Country at The Crossroads
Chechnya
13-Year-Old Girl Kidnapped From Grozny Church Raped Repeatedly, Beaten, And Almost Starved To Death
Comoros Islands
Christians Beaten, Detained and Banished as Muslim Rule On Isles Effectively Criminalizes Faith In Christ
Two Prisoners Released On Parole After Serving Three And One-Half Months For Owning The Jesus Film
Denmark
Danish Muslim Convicted of Inciting Terrorism
Muslim Arrested for Shooting Two Jews
Four Muslims Arrested on Terror Charges
Violent Muslim Youth Riot in Danish Cities For The 6th Night; 43 Arrested
9 arrested in reported terror plot
Two Israelis shot by Arab terrorists in Denmark
Three Arrested for Plot to Kill Mohamed Cartoonist
Egypt
One Thousand Christian Men, Women & Children Tortured by Police in a Period of 30 Days
3 Christian churches in Egypt attacked on Easter Sunday
Christian Girls Kidnapped In Egypt And Forced To Convert To Islam
Christian Girl Escapes Muslim Kidnappers
Persecuting Egypt's Christians
Four Christians arrested in Egypt
Egyptian government openly discriminates the Christians of Egypt
Confessions of a Former Islamist who used to lure Christian girls into Islam through deceptive methods
Faith Under Fire in Egypt
Coptic Christian Killed in Knife Raids on Egypt Churches
22 Christians Arrested in Egyptian Crackdown on Converts
Extremists attack Coptic Christians
Two Copts die from injuries from attacks in Udaysat
Protestant Pastor Killed in Egypt after Threats
Christian Woman Tortured for Helping Converts Change their ID Cards
Egypt Christians Persecution Profile
Christian cobbler knifed for Offhand Comment
More Egyptian girls forced to convert to Islam
Christian convert from Islam jailed
Convert Arrested for Marrying Christian
Egyptian Christians Sent to Prison after Brutal Police Raid
Rumor Leads To Attack On Christians
Copt Leaving Sanctuary Knifed In Minya; Bomb Explodes Near Venerable Structure In Cairo
Egypt's Christians Protest Forced Conversion of Children
Muslim Attacks Church and Sexually Molests a Coptic Girl
Thousands of Muslims Attack Coptic Church, Barricading 800 Christians Inside
More Attacks by Muslims, Police Randomly Arrest Copts as Ploy to Portray Symmetry in ‘Sectarian Clash.’
Another Attempt by Egyptian Authorities to Remove Coptic Culture & History
Muslim Mob Attacks Church and Loots Christian Homes in Egypt
Nearly 1,000 Coptic Christians in Hiding From Stone-Throwing Muslims

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Persecution_of_non-Muslims_in_Muslim_countries

 

[PoliticalChic]

Post 85!!!!!!

Please take a break from your blathering to fix it. I don't want people to think I said the things you said.

Post 85 contains your quote, and my response.

Thanks for getting around to finally fixing it!!!

I didn't fix anything.

It is as it was originally.

You must be hallucinating.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

Of course, because women are unclean in the eyes of Muslims.

"Hey, Makmud, if we blow up some Jews we can be waited on by young boys as fresh as pearls, wink, wink."

You are mixing up Islam with orthodox Judaism. It's the Orthodox Jews who consider women unclean. An Orthodox Jew is forbidden from touching his wife during her menstrual period. He is not even allowed to touch her if she is ill and in need of medical help.

Does it not disturb you in any small way that you are on the same side of an argument with an Ann Coulter devotee? Look what you're becoming Ravi.

I smell fear.

Don't worry about being alone, it will make you stronger.

 

[Anguille]

I didn't fix anything.

It is as it was originally.

You must be hallucinating.

Either you fixed it or a mod stepped in and fixed it.

I think you are losing your mind, Polly. Get help.
The kind of hatred you carry around for Muslims is going to destroy you from the inside out.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I didn't fix anything.

It is as it was originally.

You must be hallucinating.

Either you fixed it or a mod stepped in and fixed it.

I think you are losing your mind, Polly. Get help.
The kind of hatred you carry around for Muslims is going to destroy you from the inside out.

I have no hatred, but it is painfully clear that you will neither admit to a woefull lack of knowledge in this area, nor will you see the admission of same in your ad hominem attack.

Now, calm down, have some wine, and you'll feel better in the morn.

But, you might want to pick up a book or two on the subject. Try "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji or "Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Be well.

 

[Sunni Man]

I didn't fix anything.

It is as it was originally.

You must be hallucinating.

Either you fixed it or a mod stepped in and fixed it.

I think you are losing your mind, Polly. Get help.
The kind of hatred you carry around for Muslims is going to destroy you from the inside out.

But, you might want to pick up a book or two on the subject. Try "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji or "Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

These two self admitted lesbian sluts don't have clue about Islam

I had No idea this is where you are getting your twisted information from

No wonder you post such ridiculous nonsense

 

[PoliticalChic]

Either you fixed it or a mod stepped in and fixed it.

I think you are losing your mind, Polly. Get help.
The kind of hatred you carry around for Muslims is going to destroy you from the inside out.

But, you might want to pick up a book or two on the subject. Try "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji or "Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

These two self admitted lesbian sluts don't have clue about Islam

I had No idea this is where you are getting your twisted information from

No wonder you post such ridiculous nonsense

And about now you're exhibiting the trifecta of tantrums: steam from your ears, blood from your eyes and spittle from your mouth.

Calm down, it's only a discussion.

You'll recover.

 

[Sunni Man]

But, you might want to pick up a book or two on the subject. Try "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji or "Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

These two self admitted lesbian sluts don't have clue about Islam

I had No idea this is where you are getting your twisted information from

No wonder you post such ridiculous nonsense

And about now you're exhibiting the trifecta of tantrums: steam from your ears, blood from your eyes and spittle from your mouth.

Calm down, it's only a discussion.

You'll recover.

Laughing out loud isn't a tantrum

 

[PoliticalChic]

These two self admitted lesbian sluts don't have clue about Islam

I had No idea this is where you are getting your twisted information from

No wonder you post such ridiculous nonsense

And about now you're exhibiting the trifecta of tantrums: steam from your ears, blood from your eyes and spittle from your mouth.

Calm down, it's only a discussion.

You'll recover.

Laughing out loud isn't a tantrum

Glad you took it that way.

 

[Kalam]

Your defense is, in general, diaphanous.

It was substantive enough to elicit a response.

But pleasant.

Now, the part about crushing individuality is of particular interest to me. And, like all totalist cults, including Communism and Nazism, both of which have contributed to radical Islam, your friend Qutb as a case in point, all forms of human attributes which also include desires, pleasures, love, and affection for a particular person are all anathema to Islam, as the only attachment must be to Allah (pbu).

Most of your points can easily be dismissed with a plainly-worded verse from the Qur'an. Regarding "love" and "affection" for particular people:

And of His signs is this, that He created mates for you from yourselves that you might find quiet of mind in them, and He put between you love and compassion. Surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect. - 30:21
​

Worship is reserved for Allah. Equating any human or anything physical with Allah is contrary to Islamic teachings. I don't think that true love entails actual worship of one's partner.

These forms of individuality are the hallmark of Western culture.

That's a matter of opinion.

Moslem culture practices various forms of gender apartheid, the most obvious is the full body covering in female dress. Enforced to a rediculous degree:
“Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers… hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday”
BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Men's dress is similarly restricted. Individuality?

The extent of the Qur'an's discussion of dress:

Say to the believing men that they lower their gaze and restrain their sexual passions. That is purer for them. Surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

And say to the believing women that they lower their gaze and restrain their sexual passions and do not display their adornment except what appears thereof. And let them wear their coverings over their bosoms. And they should not display their adornment except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or guileless male servants, or the children who know not women’s nakedness. And let them not strike their feet so that the adornment that they hide may be known. And turn to Allah all, O believers, so that you may be successful. - 24:30-31​

O Prophet, tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of believers to let down upon them their over-garments. This is more proper, so that they may be known, and not be given trouble. And Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. - 33:59​

Not unlike 1 Timothy 2:9.

And to prevent full bonding even in marriage? Why, polygamy of course.

Polygyny was apparently only permitted as a means of providing more care for orphans:

And if you fear that you cannot do justice to orphans, marry such women as seem good to you, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (to your wives,) then (marry) only one or that which your right hands possess. This is more proper that you may not do injustice. - 4:3​

Under the Qur'an, women have to agree to marriage in the first place and can divorce if the marriage is loveless.

And the total ease of divorce.

The annulment of unhappy marriages must not sit well with you.

Interesting, isn't it, that the freedom that women enjoy is directly proportional to how Islamic the country is- take Turkey, Morocco, and Indonesia as examples.

I don't believe that you're qualified to determine how Islamic a country or person is. Your sole criterion seems to be backwardness. Hopefully you'll be able to see the ridiculousness of this position of yours, PC.

Women are assumed to be inferior (Sura 2:28) In a hadith, Mohammad is quoted as saying women are deficient in mind, hence they need not be educated.

How can you deny Allah, and you were without life and He gave you life? Again, He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him. - 2:28​

You must have copied and pasted something incorrectly...

Ahadith are mostly unverifiable hearsay. If they don't reinforce points already made in the Qur'an, they're invalid as far as I'm concerned.

You're a Christian, correct? That you can accuse the Qur'an of sexism and also profess your faith in the Bible bewilders me. Is that not a classic example of doublethink? Is it not extremely hypocritical?

And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her. - Ecclesiastes 7:26 (KJV)​

While it unarguably can be of enormous literary and philosophical value, the profundity of your own book's sexism makes it somewhat difficult for me to respond to some of your criticisms with a straight face.

Women who express individuality must face the repercussions of Sura 4:34- beatings.

The repercussions of 4:34 only involve beatings if the verse is translated simplistically. Would you like for me to list all possible denotations of the D-R-B trilateral, which is presumably rendered as "beat" in the translation of the verse you're familiar with?

And the creativity of art and literature is stunted, outside of the magnificent geometric patterns found in mosques. No representational art is allowed.

How about the 1001 Nights? Layla and the Madman? Not to mention Rumi's poetry, which IMO is beautiful even in English.

I'm not a huge fan of most Islamic representational art, but it certainly does exist. The representational paintings are more Eastern than Western.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_art"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_art

And, I don't believe that I have overestimated the extent to which the Koran influences the society- in the more restrictive on the Moslem nations.

I don't think you're familiar enough with the Qur'an to make that judgment. Your arguments, as they pertain to the Qur'an, seem to be based largely on quote-mining and misinterpretations.

"unfortunately aren't enough hours in the day to read everything I'd like to."

A lovely sentiment. I wish more people felt that way.

I'm glad we agree on something.

 

[Kalam]

Muhammad, who oversaw such acts as the beheading of 900 captives of the Banu Qurayzah tribe as he watched the bodies thrown into a pit.(… in his 1895 biography of Muhammad ("Mahomet and Islam", London, 1895, p. 151), which relied entirely on the original Muslim sources, the scholar Sir William Muir observed:
"The massacre of the Banu Coreiza was a barbarous deed which cannot be justified by any reason of political necessity?the indiscriminate slaughter of the whole tribe cannot be recognized otherwise than as an act of monstrous cruelty?")
The Legacy of Jihad [Andrew G. Bostom] - Muhammad, the Qurayza Massacre, and PBS

Your source is William Muir? The orientalist hack? That's equivalent to me citing Qutb as an authority on Western civilization and culture.

Muir, of course, is wrong. All women and children in the tribe were spared regardless of their participation in the treachery. The collaborators, the men, were executed. Such was the price of treason. I'd expect any group who put our entire nation's existence at risk to be executed as well. If you're interested in persecution, read up on life as a Muslim under the heathen Quraysh.

Dhimmi is the status given to Jews and Christians under Islam. Throughout history, these religious minorities in Muslim lands have been oppressed and victimized.

The Jizya was mandated by the Quran, Surah 9, verse 29:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

As the emboldened portion suggests, the jizya was to be paid by those non-Muslims who preferred to remain autonomous instead of living as part of the Ummah. See the Madinah Compact for the alternative, which is unity and equality.

"Constitution" of Medina (Dustur al-Madinah)

It seems that you are quite familiar wity taqiyya:
Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart.

Islam Watch - "Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah" by Warner MacKenzie
"[H]e who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives ... All War is a ruse" and "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, they shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution ... [taqiyya] that ye may guard yourselves". [Koran 3:28 and 40.28, emphasis added]
'Taqiyya': how Islamic extremists deceive the West. (22-DEC-05) National Observer - Australia and World Affairs

There's absolutely no mention of lying in the Qur'an, including the passages cited by you. Honesty is praised as a virtue. Any hadith that contradicts the Qur'an is illegitimate.

Do you admit to having lied here?

About what? I don't lie in religious discussions. If you're going to be one of those smug pseudo-intellectuals who accuses me of "taqiyya," I'm out of here. You have no idea how obnoxious that is.

Item #5 has been documented in post#94.

So, notice, I don't lie.

Would you like to retract?

No. I'd like for you to provide specific (Qur'anic) evidence of the claims you made regarding my religion or admit that you were wrong.

Some of your sources are extremely biased. "Dhimmiwatch"? Come on.

 

[Ravi]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

Of course, because women are unclean in the eyes of Muslims.

"Hey, Makmud, if we blow up some Jews we can be waited on by young boys as fresh as pearls, wink, wink."

You are mixing up Islam with orthodox Judaism. It's the Orthodox Jews who consider women unclean. An Orthodox Jew is forbidden from touching his wife during her menstrual period. He is not even allowed to touch her if she is ill and in need of medical help.

Does it not disturb you in any small way that you are on the same side of an argument with an Ann Coulter devotee? Look what you're becoming Ravi.

Thanks for being Ang...lol! I knew you'd make this post. The Jews do this!

Difference is that any orthodox Jewish woman can walk away from her religion, can get on a plane and fly to another country without fear of death or stoning.

Now look what you are defending, Ang, rewarding warriors with young boys. What's your limit?

 

[Anguille]

Difference is that any orthodox Jewish woman can walk away from her religion, can get on a plane and fly to another country without fear of death or stoning.

Are you sure about that?

Are you insinuating Muslim women can't? What about my once Muslim now agnostic friend who stopped believing when she was about 17 and growing up in Iran? Nobody threatened her, nobody stoned her. Her family still loves her. All is well.

Your naive belief that women involved with fundamentalist cults, excepting those belonging to a fundamentalist Muslim cults, are all free as birds to leave whenever they get the whim to do so, indicates that RGS might be right about your brain cell count and methane gasses wafting through your brain cavity.

Did you forget about the FLDS? I think you don't know much about the psychology of how these cults work. Even Amish women keep their doubts about their faith to themselves. To be shunned means loss of family and community.

You'll probably next protest that you can't stone apostates in America but that because some extremist cult in Saudi Arabia has gained political power that means all Muslims are evil.

I'm trying to figure out what happened to you to make you such a bigot. Maybe you stepped in dog poop that a Muslim walking a pit bull left on the sidewalk?

Anyhow, I'm sure you and Poly Chic will have a grand old time together reading eachother excerpts from Ann Coulter. You're halfway there already.

 

[Anguille]

Now look what you are defending, Ang, rewarding warriors with young boys. What's your limit?

WOO HOO!!
a prime example of one of Ravi's bald faced lies!!!

Where's mani's thread ...?

 

[Anguille]

And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her. - Ecclesiastes 7:26 (KJV)​

 

[Ravi]

Difference is that any orthodox Jewish woman can walk away from her religion, can get on a plane and fly to another country without fear of death or stoning.

Are you sure about that?

Are you insinuating Muslim women can't? What about my once Muslim now agnostic friend who stopped believing when she was about 17 and growing up in Iran? Nobody threatened her, nobody stoned her. Her family still loves her. All is well.

Your naive belief that women involved with fundamentalist cults, excepting those belonging to a fundamentalist Muslim cults, are all free as birds to leave whenever they get the whim to do so, indicates that RGS might be right about your brain cell count and methane gasses wafting through your brain cavity.

Did you forget about the FLDS? I think you don't know much about the psychology of how these cults work. Even Amish women keep their doubts about their faith to themselves. To be shunned means loss of family and community.

You'll probably next protest that you can't stone apostates in America but that because some extremist cult in Saudi Arabia has gained political power that means all Muslims are evil.

I'm trying to figure out what happened to you to make you such a bigot. Maybe you stepped in dog poop that a Muslim walking a pit bull left on the sidewalk?

Anyhow, I'm sure you and Poly Chic will have a grand old time together reading eachother excerpts from Ann Coulter. You're halfway there already.

A few exceptions, like the FLDS, or your friend that left Iran, do not discount that in many Muslim countries women are NOT allowed to leave without the permission of their husbands/sons/fathers and are subject to physical harm if they attempt to do so. With the blessing of the state in many cases.

The rest of your post is just nonsense so I'll overlook it.

 

[Anguille]

A few exceptions, like the FLDS, or your friend that left Iran, do not discount that in many Muslim countries women are NOT allowed to leave without the permission of their husbands/sons/fathers and are subject to physical harm if they attempt to do so. With the blessing of the state in many cases.

Specifically which countries and in what why do the governments of these countries represent Muslims worldwide?

Until the early 1980's rape in Sicily was prosecuted as a crime against morals, not against the victim. If the woman who was raped agreed to marry the rapist, all charges were dropped. If she refused, she was usually harassed and called a slut by the community. Her family's property was often vandalized till she agreed to the marriage. Seeing how much influence the Catholic Church has had on the Italian government, would it be reasonable to say that all Christians hold all rape victims responsible for thier own rapes?

 

[mskafka]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.

I have been, and none of my waiters suggested to me that je ne sais quoi of being "fresh as a virgin pearl."

"virgin" kind of gives it away.

I KNOW, that you are not that shallow-minded. So, The Virgin Island residents are all celibate? I'm not certain that this Surah, was meant to be taken so literally.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Islam is an artless religion.

I am not a religious man or even a believer in God but i appreciate the masterpieces that were inspired by religion. in fact some of the most meaningful engineering advances were a result of religion.

Islam does not seem to inspire but rather to repress man's need for creativity.

Islamic cultures created interesting art some, original some contrived on conquered culture .
Islam lacks real science ,All of Islamic science was based on conquered cultures .Science in Islamically conquered countries died with in a generation of being conquered, muslims claimed achievements that occurred in that time frame as Islamic.