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I've watched the decline of respect and competence of govt. ESPECIALLY on the Fed level. It's a tragedy. We could ALL be more trusting of power if it was exercised correctly. But sidelining yourself when there's a huge new complex in Utah to spy on Americans --- just fails common sense. It's like waiting for the Mother Ship to arrive.
For me, that's a tremendous incentive to reject them all. That facility will remain no mater which warden is elected.
You blitz right the fuck over words like --- "performance based incentives" and "recourse for screwing up lives" --- didn't you? Typical. You're not a trustworthy convo partner. You probably don't reward or value trust if you're defending the "other choices"..
You do realize that there's a FULL SPECTRUM of opportunities to make govt WORK BETTER? Don't you
Like being to reward excellence, firing the incompetent and expanding the ability to LITIGATE against gross malfeasance and govt negligence.
Why is it that we PROTECT govt from accountability and EXPECT error-free excellent service? It's the Unions partly. I'm not a Union buster -- but they DO protect a lot of ambivalence and incompetence
Think you piece together a REAL reply?
Sure --- let the politicians be the "Sole Payer" for campaign cash. Brilliant move. MORE power to abuse.Almost ZERO chance for ANY competition to the 2 dysfunctional EXISTING parties. Are you CRAZY?
Government shouldn't fund campaigns, period. There's nothing stopping people from funding libertarians, the green party, communist or whatever. How much public money did Trump spend?Sure --- let the politicians be the "Sole Payer" for campaign cash. Brilliant move. MORE power to abuse.
I'm recommending a system that would fund all parties equally, and rather than address that, you're telling me what I really believe. Another strawman, what a surprise.
You oppose the one thing that would actually make the libertarians competitive. It's as if you want to remain irrelevant, because winning would mean you'd have to do actual work and demonstrate that your claims of having all the answers weren't just hot air. Preaching from the ivory tower is so much easier. Those of us working down in the mud are just so impure, no wonder you turn up your nose at us.
I'm recommending a system that would fund all parties equally, and rather than address that, you're telling me what I really believe. Another strawman, what a surprise.
You blitz right the fuck over words like --- "performance based incentives" and "recourse for screwing up lives" --- didn't you? Typical. You're not a trustworthy convo partner. You probably don't reward or value trust if you're defending the "other choices"..
Performance based incentives like ... getting a cut of the fines? It seems performance based incentives are what caused the problem.
Instead of the vague handwaving and happy buzzwords, how about some specific proposals? Tell us exactly what performance-based incentives you're talking about.
You do realize that there's a FULL SPECTRUM of opportunities to make govt WORK BETTER? Don't you
I do. You, however, don't seem to realize that, being how you seem to think only libertarians are capable of making government work better, for reasons which you can't explain.
Like being to reward excellence, firing the incompetent and expanding the ability to LITIGATE against gross malfeasance and govt negligence.
Ah, the "fewer laws, more lawsuits!" philosophy that works well, so long as you're rich enough to afford a lawyer.
Why is it that we PROTECT govt from accountability and EXPECT error-free excellent service? It's the Unions partly. I'm not a Union buster -- but they DO protect a lot of ambivalence and incompetence
You're blaming it on .... unions? Seriously?
Think you piece together a REAL reply?
Can you? Fewer evasions, less special pleading about how morally pure libertarians are, and more actual policy, please.
Government shouldn't fund campaigns, period. There's nothing stopping people from funding libertarians, the green party, communist or whatever. How much public money did Trump spend?Sure --- let the politicians be the "Sole Payer" for campaign cash. Brilliant move. MORE power to abuse.
I'm recommending a system that would fund all parties equally, and rather than address that, you're telling me what I really believe. Another strawman, what a surprise.
You oppose the one thing that would actually make the libertarians competitive. It's as if you want to remain irrelevant, because winning would mean you'd have to do actual work and demonstrate that your claims of having all the answers weren't just hot air. Preaching from the ivory tower is so much easier. Those of us working down in the mud are just so impure, no wonder you turn up your nose at us.
As far as the OP I don't see how law enforcement is supposed to operate on an economic sliding scale. Sure a $200 fine will hit a poor person harder that one that isn't but there is also community service if you can't pay, been there done that.
The problem with government is it becomes a haven for income and benefits, the work is secondary, if that. Yesterday, coming back from a job, five city guys were watching another city guy shovel some dirt. Three trucks, light bars going. How much did that cost? It's out of control and we have examples all over here and overseas what happens next.
You love to throw out the "fallacy" word without backing it up. A Majarity of minority votes going to democrats equates to minorities looking to government for solutions to problems."...there was also the fallacy that minorities were calling for more government. So there's that fallacy too."
Correct, a straw man fallacy; and the thread premise fails as a consequence.
A Majarity of minority votes going to democrats equates to minorities looking to government for solutions to problems.
First, I did not use the words "always" or "bad".A Majarity of minority votes going to democrats equates to minorities looking to government for solutions to problems.
No, your conclusion is in no way related to your premise.
Your failure there stems from your embrace of the fallacy that Democrats are always looking to expand bad government, when Democrats are instead seeking to remove bad government.
Government shouldn't fund campaigns, period. There's nothing stopping people from funding libertarians, the green party, communist or whatever. How much public money did Trump spend?Sure --- let the politicians be the "Sole Payer" for campaign cash. Brilliant move. MORE power to abuse.
I'm recommending a system that would fund all parties equally, and rather than address that, you're telling me what I really believe. Another strawman, what a surprise.
You oppose the one thing that would actually make the libertarians competitive. It's as if you want to remain irrelevant, because winning would mean you'd have to do actual work and demonstrate that your claims of having all the answers weren't just hot air. Preaching from the ivory tower is so much easier. Those of us working down in the mud are just so impure, no wonder you turn up your nose at us.
As far as the OP I don't see how law enforcement is supposed to operate on an economic sliding scale. Sure a $200 fine will hit a poor person harder that one that isn't but there is also community service if you can't pay, been there done that.
The problem with government is it becomes a haven for income and benefits, the work is secondary, if that. Yesterday, coming back from a job, five city guys were watching another city guy shovel some dirt. Three trucks, light bars going. How much did that cost? It's out of control and we have examples all over here and overseas what happens next.
One of significant results that came out of the Fed shakedown of Ferguson was the rampant constant ERRORS and excessive charging of the Muni govt.
Ferguson Averages 3 Warrants Per Household, New Report Shows
Michael Brown’s death is currently one of the main sources of tension between police and civilians in Ferguson, Missouri. But a new report may give the city’s residents even more cause to be angry; it suggests Ferguson’s municipal courts are targeting lower-income African-American residents to turn a profit.
The report from ArchCity Defenders — a legal group that “works to break the cycle of ‘revolving door justice’ in the St. Louis metropolitan area” — reveals that in 2013, “the Ferguson Municipal Court disposed 24,532 warrants and 12,018 cases, or about 3 warrants and 1.5 cases per household.”
In Ferguson, the “majority (67%) of [the city’s 21,203] residents are African-American” and “22% of residents live below the poverty level,” the report mentions before going on to say:
Despite Ferguson’s relative poverty, fines and court fees comprise the second largest source of revenue for the city, a total of $2,635,400 [...] According to a court employee, the docket for an average court session may include as many as 1,500 cases. Assuming an 80% conviction rate, the average fine in a case resulting in a guilty verdict would be $275.
In addition to such heavy legal prosecution, Ferguson and other municipal courts engage in a number of operational procedures that make it even more difficult for defendants to navigate the courts. For example, a Ferguson court employee reported that the bench routinely starts hearing cases 30 minutes before the appointed time and then locks the doors to the building as early as five minutes after the official hour, a practice that could easily lead a defendant arriving even slightly late to receive an additional charge for failure to appear.
In a blog for Marginal Revolution he writes, in part: “You don’t get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshit arrests for jaywalking and constant ‘low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay.’”
There is "the disparate cost of contact with legal system" in a city like Ferguson. You wonder WHY the residents were so biased and pissed? Since they LOVE bigger more powerful govt -- their intuition was to call it all racism. When in reality -- it's just the sloppy, inefficient customer service that govt provides.
When the LEGAL system becomes the 2nd largest source of income for the city -- the city IS NOT earning an honest living. It's a partner in the despair and the decay.
As far as "sliding scales" --- that's "symptomatic" relief. The REAL relief is in reducing the ridiculous and amazing THREE WARRANTS per household. EVERYONE in that town was sucked into the criminal justice system. Is it any wonder -- it boiled over?
When the car is impounded --- delay the fine until the court appearance. Give the people a chance a plead. MAYBE -- make the 1st one free or with a lien on any assets. After all -- like you said -- they are likely paying with Govt money anyways. In some form or other. Like if they have an EBT card.
REVERSE the fine when they are overcharged or falsely put under warrant and arrest. Have the govt write a check for the AMOUNT of the standard judgement -- when they fuck up. It's likely govt money in some form or another anyway. Fine the GOVT for making life ruining mistakes.
But we should not be on the edge of a race war because of the frustrations of these REAL ABUSES. And govt has to IMPROVE their game -- so that there aren't 3 warrants per household in ANY American community.
Government shouldn't fund campaigns, period. There's nothing stopping people from funding libertarians, the green party, communist or whatever. How much public money did Trump spend?Sure --- let the politicians be the "Sole Payer" for campaign cash. Brilliant move. MORE power to abuse.
I'm recommending a system that would fund all parties equally, and rather than address that, you're telling me what I really believe. Another strawman, what a surprise.
You oppose the one thing that would actually make the libertarians competitive. It's as if you want to remain irrelevant, because winning would mean you'd have to do actual work and demonstrate that your claims of having all the answers weren't just hot air. Preaching from the ivory tower is so much easier. Those of us working down in the mud are just so impure, no wonder you turn up your nose at us.
As far as the OP I don't see how law enforcement is supposed to operate on an economic sliding scale. Sure a $200 fine will hit a poor person harder that one that isn't but there is also community service if you can't pay, been there done that.
The problem with government is it becomes a haven for income and benefits, the work is secondary, if that. Yesterday, coming back from a job, five city guys were watching another city guy shovel some dirt. Three trucks, light bars going. How much did that cost? It's out of control and we have examples all over here and overseas what happens next.
One of significant results that came out of the Fed shakedown of Ferguson was the rampant constant ERRORS and excessive charging of the Muni govt.
Ferguson Averages 3 Warrants Per Household, New Report Shows
Michael Brown’s death is currently one of the main sources of tension between police and civilians in Ferguson, Missouri. But a new report may give the city’s residents even more cause to be angry; it suggests Ferguson’s municipal courts are targeting lower-income African-American residents to turn a profit.
The report from ArchCity Defenders — a legal group that “works to break the cycle of ‘revolving door justice’ in the St. Louis metropolitan area” — reveals that in 2013, “the Ferguson Municipal Court disposed 24,532 warrants and 12,018 cases, or about 3 warrants and 1.5 cases per household.”
In Ferguson, the “majority (67%) of [the city’s 21,203] residents are African-American” and “22% of residents live below the poverty level,” the report mentions before going on to say:
Despite Ferguson’s relative poverty, fines and court fees comprise the second largest source of revenue for the city, a total of $2,635,400 [...] According to a court employee, the docket for an average court session may include as many as 1,500 cases. Assuming an 80% conviction rate, the average fine in a case resulting in a guilty verdict would be $275.
In addition to such heavy legal prosecution, Ferguson and other municipal courts engage in a number of operational procedures that make it even more difficult for defendants to navigate the courts. For example, a Ferguson court employee reported that the bench routinely starts hearing cases 30 minutes before the appointed time and then locks the doors to the building as early as five minutes after the official hour, a practice that could easily lead a defendant arriving even slightly late to receive an additional charge for failure to appear.
In a blog for Marginal Revolution he writes, in part: “You don’t get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshit arrests for jaywalking and constant ‘low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay.’”
There is "the disparate cost of contact with legal system" in a city like Ferguson. You wonder WHY the residents were so biased and pissed? Since they LOVE bigger more powerful govt -- their intuition was to call it all racism. When in reality -- it's just the sloppy, inefficient customer service that govt provides.
When the LEGAL system becomes the 2nd largest source of income for the city -- the city IS NOT earning an honest living. It's a partner in the despair and the decay.
As far as "sliding scales" --- that's "symptomatic" relief. The REAL relief is in reducing the ridiculous and amazing THREE WARRANTS per household. EVERYONE in that town was sucked into the criminal justice system. Is it any wonder -- it boiled over?
When the car is impounded --- delay the fine until the court appearance. Give the people a chance a plead. MAYBE -- make the 1st one free or with a lien on any assets. After all -- like you said -- they are likely paying with Govt money anyways. In some form or other. Like if they have an EBT card.
REVERSE the fine when they are overcharged or falsely put under warrant and arrest. Have the govt write a check for the AMOUNT of the standard judgement -- when they fuck up. It's likely govt money in some form or another anyway. Fine the GOVT for making life ruining mistakes.
But we should not be on the edge of a race war because of the frustrations of these REAL ABUSES. And govt has to IMPROVE their game -- so that there aren't 3 warrants per household in ANY American community.
I was listening to series on just this sort of thing a while ago (but it wasn't Ferguson) - it was mind opening. There are several things that never be done for a profit - this,justice and for-profit prisons. The foment abuse, and profit off human misery. That is really an eye opener on Ferguson's situation but it sure didn't get focused on in the media!
