2012, the issues, the politics, the cliches.

[boedicca]

SkyNut's head is so far up his ass he can lick his sternum.

 

[MaggieMae]

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

Great, a moron...

thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation

Hear hear. Just once I'd like to stay in a thread where the basic conversation is civil and intelligent (even if we strongly disagree) and not have some spoiler jump in. Your comment can hardly be considered "moronic."

 

[Skynet]

SkyNut's head is so far up his ass he can lick his sternum.

and you can eat a bag of dicks.

 

[Skynet]

Great, a moron...

thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation

Hear hear. Just once I'd like to stay in a thread where the basic conversation is civil and intelligent (even if we strongly disagree) and not have some spoiler jump in. Your comment can hardly be considered "moronic."

its impossible on here. no one on the right have a real debate without name calling or personal attacks. just see boedicka

it would nice if you could just report people for swearing and personal attacks that add nothing to the conversation, but the USMB will never do that.

 

[MaggieMae]

Yes we are trying to Conserve. We're trying to Conserve and Restore a proper society. That would be one much more like the 12th thru 18th Centuries than the 20th - 21st Centuries.

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

a proper society has squat to do with "stuff".

Yes, I can just see American life as we know it now happily returning to the Puritan age.

 

[MaggieMae]

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

a proper society has squat to do with "stuff".

cars and planes fuel trade, electricity runs everything that we do in society, the internet is used to control vast systems across the world as well as disseminate information, computer control every intricate part of our society today, do i need to go on....

Our troops would still be using muskets and orders from headquarters would have to be by fast horses.

 

[Richard-H]

It's not the politicians, folks. They are a symptom of the greater problem... the decline of the American Citizenry. The Founders limited those who were allowed to take part in government for a reason. We are now seeing exactly why that was. The unwashed masses do not have the intelligence, the reasoning, the common sense, logic, or morals and virtues required to be allowed to govern or to have a say in governance. Until we change that, this nation is as doomed as Rome was.

While, begrudgingly agreeing with you, I'm curious:

If the right to vote were limited to just the well educated and well informed. Do you think that the liberal or conservative ideology would win out?

 

[MaggieMae]

a proper society has squat to do with "stuff".

cars and planes fuel trade, electricity runs everything that we do in society, the internet is used to control vast systems across the world as well as disseminate information, computer control every intricate part of our society today, do i need to go on....

Damn you're dim.

Society is how we treat each other. Not just how we use our stuff.

I'm glad you clarified that. Now if only certain right-wing members of this board would remember that too. (Thinking of another thread, here, where the common theme was they shouldn't be concerned with anyone else but themselves.)

 

[Skynet]

It's not the politicians, folks. They are a symptom of the greater problem... the decline of the American Citizenry. The Founders limited those who were allowed to take part in government for a reason. We are now seeing exactly why that was. The unwashed masses do not have the intelligence, the reasoning, the common sense, logic, or morals and virtues required to be allowed to govern or to have a say in governance. Until we change that, this nation is as doomed as Rome was.

While, begrudgingly agreeing with you, I'm curious:

If the right to vote were limited to just the well educated and well informed. Do you think that the liberal or conservative ideology would win out?

i honestly dont think there would be much of a difference. there are well educated and well informed on both sides of that argument.

 

[MaggieMae]

Bullshit...

Ever hear of trade schools? Working your way up after gaining entry level jobs? You think construction workers don't make money? You think a person opening a cleaning service needs a college education?

Signed...
H.S. diploma Army trained Vet making well above the average income as an engineer and manager in the tech world

working your way up from an $8 an hour job to the average starting salary of a college grade typically doesnt happen in 4 years. ive also worked in construction, and union guys yes they make decent wages, non union guys start at around $12 an hour for a general laborer, and skilled operators usually top out around $45 - $50 an hour, but that does take quite a long time to make it from laborer to operator, unless........ you get a higher education!

trade schools I still consider to be higher education beyond high school as you actually need a diploma to get into to one.

the army i will give you, but i also consider the technical jobs of the army to be its own higher education in itself. nuclear engineer, aircraft mechanic, intelligence officer... and so on are very highly skilled jobs and earn good living.

You have the freedom to do as much or as little as it takes to 'move up', stay stagnant, or falter.... you see... it's about the freedom to live by your choices, efforts, etc... and it does NOT take a college education

I started doubling my salary EVERY 2-3 years after I ETS'd from the Army... with NO college degree... and I have passed over college grads every step of the way... and as a matter of fact, I toss out resumes from college kids practically every day

I have known dropouts to start cleaning businesses and do fabulous... know one that worked as a limo driver, after being a HS fuckup, who saved like crazy to buy his own limo with 3 years, and build a fleet from there, and now at 42 owns a company with a fleet of 30 limos... know ones who started off as electrical apprentices, who now make damn good money... and the list goes on

the fact is that a college education does not really do anything for you except maybe a closer look by HR... and in many cases, ones who go to college are worse off paying off ungodly amounts of loans and gaining a superiority complex that does them no good in the real world... the only thing preventing ANYONE from getting a 'decent' job is the self... not education

I actually can agree with you for a change. Steve Jobs never graduated from college, and his is the ultimate success story.

 

[Richard-H]

DiamondDave and Skynet, let me interject something here before you gentlemen get too out of hand.... because to some degree you're both right and you're both wrong.

I actually have a little bit of experience with this issue. The company that I work for until relatively recently had a series of job titles with the word "Engineer" in them. An Engineering degree was generally required to get the job; though the type of Engineering degree varied greatly and included individuals with Engineering Technology degrees.

Of the +/- 75 "engineers" we had in the department when we Unionized in 2007, only about a half dozen actually had a PE stamp. Now, a PE stamp is not necessary for the type of work these individuals did. During negotiations the job title for these people was changed to "Designer", for several reasons (mostly having to do with payrates). There is another department in the company which does still call its employees "Engineers". These are all Electrical Engineers, and out of the less than a dozen individuals, at least half have a PE to their name.

The problem with the word "Engineer" goes back a ways. There are only THREE career paths in the United States which have an advanced degree and a licensing/testing requirement to them.... Doctors, Lawyers, and Professional Engineers. Two of those three groups zealously guard their titles. You wouldn't see someone walking around calling themselves Doctor Smith if they didn't have an MD (or a PhD) after their name; nor would you see someone calling themselves a Lawyer if they didn't have a Law Degree and have passed the Bar Exam. If anyone tried to do either of these things they'd quickly be raked over the coals by those professions and lose all credibility.

However, the word "Engineer" has gotten away from the PE's. We have "domestic engineers" (housewives); "sanitation enginners" (garbage men); and a slew of other occupations that have drawn credibility off the use of the word "Engineer" in their title without any educational or testing/licensing requirements. The PE community is STARTING to try to reclaim the word from the general lexicon, but it's going to take a very long time.

I say this as the grand-nephew of the last man in the State of Minnesota to be granted an Architect's License WITHOUT having an Architecture Degree. My grandfather's brother started out as a draftsman for an architect two weeks after he graduated from high school. He worked his way up through the firm and as I said, was the last man in the State of Minnesoty to be allowed to take the Architect's Licensing Exam without having met the degree requirement (this would have been back in the 1950-1960 range).

I also say this as a degree holding CAD Operator who has had to spend large amounts of time over my 16 years in the workforce finding and correcting the errors of more highly educated Engineers (Structural, Architecture, and Electical) and training them on how things work in the real world. Many of these children come out of school with a head full of book learning and no idea of how the REAL world works. I've had to train these people how to layout simple schematics and do basic design work.

Basically what I'm saying is that the book learning of these college grads does leave a lot to be desired, and that the experience and knowledge of someone who has "been there and done that" should not be discounted simply because it doesn't have a sheepskin to back it up. I'd bank on the guy who's done the work for a decade and says it won't work over the guy who can show me 5 tables and a foot long formula about how I SHOULD be able to pull that cable through that 3" conduit he put on the drawing.

i totally agree. what dave is unwilling to understand and accept is that the word "engineer" is commonly misused to describe many things that actually have nothing to do with engineering. Sound Engineer is one for example. I keep referring to professional engineers and design engineers. these are the individuals who must obtain degrees in their field to qualify . i.e. Civil Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, Aerospace Engineer, Structural Engineer, Electrical Engineer. These being the main engineering disciplines (i may have left out some, if i did i apologize). it is these individuals who design and maintain the world in which we live in and truly can call themselves Engineers. someone who simply works in the field of Engineering does not share the same designation as these people. Dave either does not understand this or is unwilling to accept this. whatever the case, he is not by definition an Engineer, although he probably does work in the Engineering field.

TO DO IS TO BE!

'Engineer' is a verb first and foremost. A person who engineers is an engineer.

Being an engineer is more of a talent than a product of education. Many of the finest engineers the world has ever known did not have degrees.

Many, many people who have engineering degrees are by no means engineers. That is not to say that there are not many people with engineering degrees that are escellent engineers. The education helps, certainly, but it does not by any means determine whether a person is or is not a capable engineer.

Denying would be like saying Bill Gates is not a businessman because he does not have a degree in business.

 

[MaggieMae]

Not really... age is not easy to determine... resumes are shortened... some older experience left off...

I generally choose not to hire college trained... I prefer military experience, even if fresh out of service over college and X number of years in the work force... I have found that the majority of college educated ask for more for no reason, do not have the work ethic (never taught) and tend to overthink theoretical or book solutions rather than take action and using work wisdom...

And your assumption on mechanical etc is also ill advised... know many in the field, even in the government, with no college...

Most every job in the tech field, you can get a degree that is related... and in most every case, the information/education obtained is absolutely worthless

if you had read my previous posts, a military education through the services is just about equal an college education in terms of knowledge. getting any type of education whether college, military or trade school far trump those with only a high school education.

and try getting a job at any engineering company with an engineering degree, thats the minimum requirement, you cant walk in with a hs diploma and even get considered these days. (the only exception is if you had been working for many many many years in the field) anyone in their 20's or early 30's gets no consideration.

My first job was engineer without a college degree.. my baby brother is an engineer and has been for 3 years, he is now age 26... NO COLLEGE degree....

You, sir... are full of shit assumptions

I think snagging an engineering job probably depends on the location. Even in the mid-70's, my brother, fresh out of college with an engineering degree and a masters in business had a tough time in the Houston area finding a job that wasn't entry level gofer for the drafting department in an engineering firm. He did do drafting work for several years but at the same time went for a third certification in engineering, which was just as intensive as his classwork in engineering. After that, basically three degrees, he was finally well on his way to six and seven figure salaries.

 

[Skynet]

'Engineer' is a verb first and foremost. A person who engineers is an engineer.

Being an engineer is more of a talent than a product of education. Many of the finest engineers the world has ever known did not have degrees.

Many, many people who have engineering degrees are by no means engineers. That is not to say that there are not many people with engineering degrees that are escellent engineers. The education helps, certainly, but it does not by any means determine whether a person is or is not a capable engineer.

Denying would be like saying Bill Gates is not a businessman because he does not have a degree in business.

its a verb only to those who dont understand it. anyone can call themselves an engineer, that doesnt make it do. i can call myself a doctor or a lawyer, but without the proper "paperwork" to back it up it doesnt make it true.

that so called paper, speaks volumes over a person who doesnt have it. im not suggesting that experience isnt important as well, but would you trust a guy who calls himself an engineer to design a bridge that you will one day drive on? or would you trust they guy who got educated by a set of standards, proved his proficiency and obtained a professional license?

if you look at the requirement of every state (as each state regulated its own engineers) you will find that in order to be a licensed or professional engineer you need a degree.

 

[Lars]

It's not the politicians, folks. They are a symptom of the greater problem... the decline of the American Citizenry. The Founders limited those who were allowed to take part in government for a reason. We are now seeing exactly why that was. The unwashed masses do not have the intelligence, the reasoning, the common sense, logic, or morals and virtues required to be allowed to govern or to have a say in governance. Until we change that, this nation is as doomed as Rome was.

While, begrudgingly agreeing with you, I'm curious:

If the right to vote were limited to just the well educated and well informed. Do you think that the liberal or conservative ideology would win out?

Probably Libertarianism and Socialism would. The smartest people I know are either Libertarian or Socialist.

 

[MaggieMae]

DiamondDave and Skynet, let me interject something here before you gentlemen get too out of hand.... because to some degree you're both right and you're both wrong.

I actually have a little bit of experience with this issue. The company that I work for until relatively recently had a series of job titles with the word "Engineer" in them. An Engineering degree was generally required to get the job; though the type of Engineering degree varied greatly and included individuals with Engineering Technology degrees.

Of the +/- 75 "engineers" we had in the department when we Unionized in 2007, only about a half dozen actually had a PE stamp. Now, a PE stamp is not necessary for the type of work these individuals did. During negotiations the job title for these people was changed to "Designer", for several reasons (mostly having to do with payrates). There is another department in the company which does still call its employees "Engineers". These are all Electrical Engineers, and out of the less than a dozen individuals, at least half have a PE to their name.

The problem with the word "Engineer" goes back a ways. There are only THREE career paths in the United States which have an advanced degree and a licensing/testing requirement to them.... Doctors, Lawyers, and Professional Engineers. Two of those three groups zealously guard their titles. You wouldn't see someone walking around calling themselves Doctor Smith if they didn't have an MD (or a PhD) after their name; nor would you see someone calling themselves a Lawyer if they didn't have a Law Degree and have passed the Bar Exam. If anyone tried to do either of these things they'd quickly be raked over the coals by those professions and lose all credibility.

However, the word "Engineer" has gotten away from the PE's. We have "domestic engineers" (housewives); "sanitation enginners" (garbage men); and a slew of other occupations that have drawn credibility off the use of the word "Engineer" in their title without any educational or testing/licensing requirements. The PE community is STARTING to try to reclaim the word from the general lexicon, but it's going to take a very long time.

I say this as the grand-nephew of the last man in the State of Minnesota to be granted an Architect's License WITHOUT having an Architecture Degree. My grandfather's brother started out as a draftsman for an architect two weeks after he graduated from high school. He worked his way up through the firm and as I said, was the last man in the State of Minnesoty to be allowed to take the Architect's Licensing Exam without having met the degree requirement (this would have been back in the 1950-1960 range).

I also say this as a degree holding CAD Operator who has had to spend large amounts of time over my 16 years in the workforce finding and correcting the errors of more highly educated Engineers (Structural, Architecture, and Electical) and training them on how things work in the real world. Many of these children come out of school with a head full of book learning and no idea of how the REAL world works. I've had to train these people how to layout simple schematics and do basic design work.

Basically what I'm saying is that the book learning of these college grads does leave a lot to be desired, and that the experience and knowledge of someone who has "been there and done that" should not be discounted simply because it doesn't have a sheepskin to back it up. I'd bank on the guy who's done the work for a decade and says it won't work over the guy who can show me 5 tables and a foot long formula about how I SHOULD be able to pull that cable through that 3" conduit he put on the drawing.

Frankly, I think the whole emphasis on college degrees comes from the private sector which generally thinks of that as being more important than experience. In some states (California is one, I believe), if a person can pass the bar, s/he doesn't have to have the related law degree, but it's harder for those people to compete nevertheless. Degrees in literary arts are worthless unless a student majors in a specific discipline with a career goal in mind, such as teaching. But hey, it sure looks good on a résumé!!

 

[Vel]

We live in interesting times. The upcoming election will decide the quality of life for the next generation of Americans as the people will pick a new House of Representatives, one-third of the Senate and a President who will guide us until January 2017.

Since the election of Ronald Reagan our politics have been sorely divided along ideological lines, as the two major parties seek to fundamentally change America. The issues we face today have changed very little over the course of our history as a nation; today, unfortunately, the animosity amonst us maybe as severe as at anytime in our history, save for Civil War era.

Every week or so a new event clouds the landscape as the talking heads, blogosphere and 24/7 'news' issues BREAKING NEWS alerts, many times on salacious matters which have nothing to do with our real problems.

Is it possilbe for there to be general agreement on the real problems facing us today? And from there to begin to dabate potenital solutions critically, looking outside the box of ideological purity?

The real problem facing us today is that far left whackaloon lives in the wh and has gone on a massive spending spree and we need to get his ass out of there.. how'd I do?

if you remove the bailout and stimulus, Bush actually has spent more because of the wars in iraq and afghanistan that obama. where was your outrage on spending from 2000 - 2008?

And IF a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when he hops.
Good grief..

 

[MaggieMae]

thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation

Hear hear. Just once I'd like to stay in a thread where the basic conversation is civil and intelligent (even if we strongly disagree) and not have some spoiler jump in. Your comment can hardly be considered "moronic."

its impossible on here. no one on the right have a real debate without name calling or personal attacks. just see boedicka

it would nice if you could just report people for swearing and personal attacks that add nothing to the conversation, but the USMB will never do that.

Being the faux adult she is, she's usually on the attack against me! Trust me, a tit for tat with her ain't worth allowing her to bring you down to her low level.