20 Years On: The Avoidable, Anguishing, and Awful 2003 Iraq War

[gipper]

Obama exposed and ended the torture program. Yes, he continued with the bombing etc., but the War in Afghanistan it’s not the same as the war in Iraq. There is actual legal justification for the war in Afghanistan. Not for continuing it for 20 years but at least for starting it.

Obama & Counterterror: The Ignored Record

www.hrw.org

I was really disappointed in Obama’s renewal of the Patriot Act. And “disappointed” understates my level of disgust at this action.

Given the level of shit obama had to deal with, I thought he did a very very good job, especially on the economy, but no leader is ever perfect.

Same with Trudeau. His handling of the economy and the covid crisis is stellar. He should have won re-election in a landslide.

Instead, he ends up with a minority government, because he keeps tripping over simple, basic notions like “Don’t give untendered government contracts to the people who hired your mother!” and “Tell your brother not to take money from the Chinese”. Things like that.

Excuses. O was no different than W. Except the truth. He is a fraud and a war criminal.

 

[Dragonlady]

Excuses. O was no different than W. Except the truth. He is a fraud and a war criminal.

There is actually a huge difference, but you are unwilling to see it.

Intent is the difference. Intent is the difference between fuckups of the first proportion, and crimes.

Realistically, the outcome is just as bad for the victims regardless of intent. Just because you didn’t mean to screw someone over, makes no difference to the fact that you did. But if you did it on purpose, that’s evil.

Obama spent too much time listening to the generals, who talked him into staying in Afghanistan after bin Laden was dead. Their job is to follow orders, and never admit defeat, so they may not be the best advisors in these circumstances.

 

[surada]

But George W Bush gets embraced by Obama and Michelle and is welcome at all Presidential ceremonies.

Whereas the President of Peace, Donald Trump is scorned and not welcome.



Oh, and idiots in the United States Senate are trying to keep the AUMF alive.

...

As part of the October 2002 congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force against Iraq, the Congressional Budget Office provided a range for the estimated cost of the war. Taking the upper end of all categories (deploying the force, conducting active hostilities, redeploying the force, and conducting occupation duties), the cost for an eight-year war would have run just under $450 billion. As it turned out, as of the first full withdrawal in December 2011, the cost was estimated to have been (including the war in Afghanistan by 2011) a staggering $4 trillion.

The Cost of Iraq War​

The worst of the cost, however, was the human toll.


The United States military lost soldiers to a total of 4,431 deaths and 31,994 wounded. In a vastly underreported category, the members of the U.S. Armed Forces also suffered staggering numbers of unseen casualties: hundreds of thousands suffered post-traumatic stress disorder (one study suggested fully 20 percent of all those who deployed to Iraq suffered from PTSD), and an estimated 350,000 who suffered traumatic brain disorder injuries. And what did America “win” for this extraordinary expenditure of financial and human capital?

Virtually nothing. When Obama fully withdrew the force in December 2011, the eight years of effort up to that point was exposed as having created a hollow Iraqi Security Force that disintegrated in June 2014 at the first test against ISIS – after which Obama immediately returned U.S. troops to protect the regime in Baghdad. There are still 2,500 troops in Iraq today, and no end in sight.

I’m sure Baghdad still appreciates the U.S. providing a military force for its protection. The United States, on the other hand, has done nothing but pay for the 32 years of military excursion in Iraq, in both blood and treasure. Our security is not more secure because of our military presence in Iraq.

In fact, these three decades have arguably degraded our national security, as we have gotten ourselves into more debt, but more importantly, have wasted entire military careers of our service members on training for unnecessary small-scale counterinsurgency fights at the expense of preparing for potential peer-on-peer conflicts that are both more likely – and more consequential for our long term security.

As is now well established, our entry into this war was based on either incompetent leaders or outright fraud and lies. Each person can judge for themselves, but regardless of which is right, the consequences for our Armed Forces and our country have been an unqualified failure. If there is any lesson to have learned from these three decades of unnecessary conflict, it is that we the people must demand accountability from those who lied us into – and lied to keep us in – wars. What would make a great first step, however, is to end our unnecessary deployment into Iraq today.

Author Expertise and Biography​

A 19FortyFive Contributing Editor, Daniel L. Davis is a Senior Fellow for Defense Priorities and a former Lt. Col. in the U.S. Army who deployed into combat zones four times. He is the author of “The Eleventh Hour in 2020 America.” Follow him @DanielLDavis1.

20 Years On: The Avoidable, Anguishing, and Awful 2003 Iraq War

In an attempt to make sense of the past two decades of American military operations in Iraq, we must begin by recognizing our military engagement in Iraq isn’t at the two-decade mark.

www.19fortyfive.com

​

You should have known before the invasion of Iraq. I did. Stupid blunder and the fallout continues.

 

[surada]

No subsequent administration has had the appetite for more ground invasions that cost US lives and money, including Trump’s administration, which preferred to try regime change in countries like Venezuela using economic warfare and local proxies. But as Trump’s four years showed, whether in Venezuela or Cuba, regime change and military adventuri
sm are still at the top of the menu for US foreign policy.

Leaders continue to try their hand at Bush’s folly, even as Iraq should’ve beaten into the heads of everyone alive that the ability to militarily subdue a country isn’t the same as winning a war, and how quickly and easily things spiral out of one’s control when a leader is violently toppled. Obama blasted Bush while repeating his policy in Libya with similarly horrendous results and intensifying similar efforts in Syria. Commentators and officials today talk with breathtaking glibness about regime change as a solution to Russian aggression. And of course, it’s not just US leaders: Russian president Vladimir Putin’s disastrous invasion of Ukraine has followed Bush’s playbook almost to a T, from faulty intelligence and expectations of being greeted as a liberator to poor war planning and empowering local extremists.

The Arab spring came out of the Iraq war. Had nothing to do with the Obama administration. Afghanistan was about ENRON.

Punishing Venezuela is also stupid. Buying their oil doesn't give the US any right to meddle in internal politics.

 

[Dragonlady]

But George W Bush gets embraced by Obama and Michelle and is welcome at all Presidential ceremonies.

Whereas the President of Peace, Donald Trump is scorned and not welcome.



Oh, and idiots in the United States Senate are trying to keep the AUMF alive.

...

As part of the October 2002 congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force against Iraq, the Congressional Budget Office provided a range for the estimated cost of the war. Taking the upper end of all categories (deploying the force, conducting active hostilities, redeploying the force, and conducting occupation duties), the cost for an eight-year war would have run just under $450 billion. As it turned out, as of the first full withdrawal in December 2011, the cost was estimated to have been (including the war in Afghanistan by 2011) a staggering $4 trillion.

The Cost of Iraq War​

The worst of the cost, however, was the human toll.


The United States military lost soldiers to a total of 4,431 deaths and 31,994 wounded. In a vastly underreported category, the members of the U.S. Armed Forces also suffered staggering numbers of unseen casualties: hundreds of thousands suffered post-traumatic stress disorder (one study suggested fully 20 percent of all those who deployed to Iraq suffered from PTSD), and an estimated 350,000 who suffered traumatic brain disorder injuries. And what did America “win” for this extraordinary expenditure of financial and human capital?

Virtually nothing. When Obama fully withdrew the force in December 2011, the eight years of effort up to that point was exposed as having created a hollow Iraqi Security Force that disintegrated in June 2014 at the first test against ISIS – after which Obama immediately returned U.S. troops to protect the regime in Baghdad. There are still 2,500 troops in Iraq today, and no end in sight.

I’m sure Baghdad still appreciates the U.S. providing a military force for its protection. The United States, on the other hand, has done nothing but pay for the 32 years of military excursion in Iraq, in both blood and treasure. Our security is not more secure because of our military presence in Iraq.

In fact, these three decades have arguably degraded our national security, as we have gotten ourselves into more debt, but more importantly, have wasted entire military careers of our service members on training for unnecessary small-scale counterinsurgency fights at the expense of preparing for potential peer-on-peer conflicts that are both more likely – and more consequential for our long term security.

As is now well established, our entry into this war was based on either incompetent leaders or outright fraud and lies. Each person can judge for themselves, but regardless of which is right, the consequences for our Armed Forces and our country have been an unqualified failure. If there is any lesson to have learned from these three decades of unnecessary conflict, it is that we the people must demand accountability from those who lied us into – and lied to keep us in – wars. What would make a great first step, however, is to end our unnecessary deployment into Iraq today.

Author Expertise and Biography​

A 19FortyFive Contributing Editor, Daniel L. Davis is a Senior Fellow for Defense Priorities and a former Lt. Col. in the U.S. Army who deployed into combat zones four times. He is the author of “The Eleventh Hour in 2020 America.” Follow him @DanielLDavis1.

20 Years On: The Avoidable, Anguishing, and Awful 2003 Iraq War

In an attempt to make sense of the past two decades of American military operations in Iraq, we must begin by recognizing our military engagement in Iraq isn’t at the two-decade mark.

www.19fortyfive.com

​

Donald Trump killed over 1 million Americans with his failed Covid response. He lied to the Americannpeople at every turn, and he sold out your foreign policy to Putin and Xi. Billions have disappeared from the public coffers and are unaccounted for.

And when he lost the election, he tried to overthrow the government. W may have been one of the worst presidents in history, but when the American people voted him out of office, he put on his big boy pants and went home and said nothing.

 

[Anathema]

The War in Afghanistan was unstoppable after September 11th.

The War in Iraq was unavoidable because Hussein was planning an assassination attempt on President Bush’s father and American law forbids us from simply killing a foreign leader directly.

 

[Dragonlady]

You should have known before the invasion of Iraq. I did. Stupid blunder and the fallout continues.

I’ve often wondered if W hadn’t magically “won Florida” and Gore was declared President, where your nation and the rest of the world would be today. I don’t think there would ever have been a war with Iraq, which means no ISIS.

A continuation of balanced budgets and no destabilizing deficit spending and hidden war costs.

 

[gipper]

There is actually a huge difference, but you are unwilling to see it.

Intent is the difference. Intent is the difference between fuckups of the first proportion, and crimes.

Realistically, the outcome is just as bad for the victims regardless of intent. Just because you didn’t mean to screw someone over, makes no difference to the fact that you did. But if you did it on purpose, that’s evil.

Obama spent too much time listening to the generals, who talked him into staying in Afghanistan after bin Laden was dead. Their job is to follow orders, and never admit defeat, so they may not be the best advisors in these circumstances.

More excuses.

O mass murdered thousands. There are no excuses. He’s EXACTLY like W, just didn’t murder as many.

Your bias is showing.

 

[surada]

I’ve often wondered if W hadn’t magically “won Florida” and Gore was declared President, where your nation and the rest of the world would be today. I don’t think there would ever have been a war with Iraq, which means no ISIS.

A continuation of balanced budgets and no destabilizing deficit spending and hidden war costs.

I wonder too... But, the British were determined and Clean Break Strategy was the all the rage for political hysteria.

 

[Dragonlady]

More excuses.

O mass murdered thousands. There are no excuses. He’s EXACTLY like W, just didn’t murder as many.

Your bias is showing.

I have no biases here. Y0UR biases are definitely showing if cannot even acknowledge the differences between the parties.

Neither war should have started or been continued, but Republicans would never have allowed 0bama to pull out of Afghanistan, after the cluster fuck in Iraq when the Americans pulled out. TheY pilloried him for pulling out of Iraq, and blamed him for the rise of ISIS. They wouldn't even let him close Gitmo.

I like to look at mitigating circumstances in all situations. What I expect or want someone to do may not be possible. I was disappointed he didn't close Gitmo, but I understand why it didn't happen. I'm not prepared to cut him any slack on the Patriot Act, or going after reporters.

But like I said, I'm not expecting perfection. And all too often it's the lesser of two evils. But right at this moment in US politics, there is only one party that is corrupted from top to bottom and dedicated to the premise that the Republic is a failure and authoritarianism is the way to go.

 

[surada]

I have no biases here. Y0UR biases are definitely showing if cannot even acknowledge the differences between the parties.

Neither war should have started or been continued, but Republicans would never have allowed 0bama to pull out of Afghanistan, after the cluster fuck in Iraq when the Americans pulled out. TheY pilloried him for pulling out of Iraq, and blamed him for the rise of ISIS. They wouldn't even let him close Gitmo.

I like to look at mitigating circumstances in all situations. What I expect or want someone to do may not be possible. I was disappointed he didn't close Gitmo, but I understand why it didn't happen. I'm not prepared to cut him any slack on the Patriot Act, or going after reporters.

But like I said, I'm not expecting perfection. And all too often it's the lesser of two evils. But right at this moment in US politics, there is only one party that is corrupted from top to bottom and dedicated to the premise that the Republic is a failure and authoritarianism is the way to go.

ISIS came out of Camp Brucca prison, Iraq in 2004. Obama wasn't president.

 

[Dragonlady]

I wonder too... But, the British were determined and Clean Break Strategy was the all the rage for political hysteria.

The British weren't determined. Tony Blake was determined to stand by George Bush but he had considerable opposition at home and subsequently lost the election for dragging GB into it.

I agree there was a lot of debate around Clean Break Strategy, but there was no serious discussion of invasion. Not publically at least. Most of the chatter was around "What if we had continued on to Baghdad at the end of the Gulf War?

As for the 2008 crash, how much of what happened is tied to the banking deregulation in 1999? How much to W's tax cuts, and subsequent deficit spending post 9/11? How much was due to the housing bubble, and how much of the housing bubble was due to low interest rates and Bush’s “no down payment bill”? Or the cost of the war.

Maybe it was all of the above or maybe if some of it hadn’t happened, the economy wouldn’t have crashed so completely.

You can pretty much wash rinse and repeat the exercise around what would’ve happened with Covid if Hillary had been President, and not Trump.

ISIS came out of Camp Brucca prison, Iraq in 2004. Obama wasn't president.

I know. And Bush disbanded Saddam’s Palace Guard and let them keep their weapons, thereby arming these assholes.

But that hasn’t stopped Republicans from blaming Obama for ISIS because none of THEM ever heard about ISIS until after Obama pulled out of Iraq.

Just like they blame Joe Biden for the Afghanistan withdrawal.

 

[LAUGHatLEFTISTS]

Another right winger who can't understand the concept of manners.

Remember when well mannered BIke Crash Feeble *Joe wanted to take Trump behind the gym and kick his ass?

 

[LAUGHatLEFTISTS]

ISIS came out of Camp Brucca prison, Iraq in 2004. Obama wasn't president.

All the cool kids say ISIL cause they’re smart and stuff.

 

[LAUGHatLEFTISTS]

Would we shoot at an overflying aircraft from a hostile nation? Hell yes, we would.

Unless they’re ballon’s of course.

 

[Dragonlady]

All the cool kids say ISIL cause they’re smart and stuff.

How adorable. You think you're one of the cool kids.

There is a vast difference being smart, and being a smart ass. A smart person contributes to a conversation, and a smart ass tries to inject himself into a conversation while contributing nothing.

 

[gipper]

I have no biases here. Y0UR biases are definitely showing if cannot even acknowledge the differences between the parties.

Neither war should have started or been continued, but Republicans would never have allowed 0bama to pull out of Afghanistan, after the cluster fuck in Iraq when the Americans pulled out. TheY pilloried him for pulling out of Iraq, and blamed him for the rise of ISIS. They wouldn't even let him close Gitmo.

I like to look at mitigating circumstances in all situations. What I expect or want someone to do may not be possible. I was disappointed he didn't close Gitmo, but I understand why it didn't happen. I'm not prepared to cut him any slack on the Patriot Act, or going after reporters.

But like I said, I'm not expecting perfection. And all too often it's the lesser of two evils. But right at this moment in US politics, there is only one party that is corrupted from top to bottom and dedicated to the premise that the Republic is a failure and authoritarianism is the way to go.

No. Your wrong in nearly everything.

The Ds wouldn’t have allowed O to leave Afghanistan. See? Their the same as the Rs.

I have no bias. I despise both W and O, and believe both are war criminals who should be in solitary at Supermax.

Fuck the lesser of two evils bs. It doesn’t work. Evil is evil. Both parties are evil as is W and O.

You desperately want to believe O was a good potus, but the facts are against you.

 

[LAUGHatLEFTISTS]

How adorable. You think you're one of the cool kids.

There is a vast difference being smart, and being a smart ass. A smart person contributes to a conversation, and a smart ass tries to inject himself into a conversation while contributing nothing.

You believe your groomed leftist fantasy posts contribute something. Every single post you make is a talking point or opinion from your groomers and kook websites. Rational people laugh at then dismiss you. The entire world laughs at then dismisses your country. Canada is as irrelevant as your posts on this American forum.

 

[Rye Catcher]

Oh you mean like these?

View attachment 767042

Another Trumpanzee who has no clue on Marxism.

 

[surada]

Another Trumpanzee who has no clue on Marxism.

Neither Mikeoxenormous nor Trump know the meaning of Marxist.