137 children removed from polygamist ranch

[Gunny]

And the evidence keeps piling up that the State in fact went on a hunting expedition with what is becoming clear was a trumped up charge, probably faked, at the compound.

There is no real evidence any of the children were abused or we would have already heard it. Once again even assuming the charge that young girls are forced to marry, there is absolutely no evidence that the younger children were sexually or physically abused as the State claims. No reason to remove them from the compound except over zealous State officials on a "mission".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080416/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

The chance that they will have a fair hearing is small to remote. Child protective services is all about lying and creating false impressions by any means possible. When they claim the mothers had to be removed because they 'coach" the children that means the kids are NOT telling them what they want to hear.

Was it not you trying to point out that people can be arrested and held PRIOR TO conviction on suspicion of committing a crime? Seems on this issue you have done a 180 and are now concerned with the rights of the individuals.

I see no evidence "piling up" that supports your assumptions that the state is guilty of anything but doing its job to protect its citizens. They are conducting an investigtion based on an allegation. It is customary in such cases to remove the children and/or females alleged to be the victims in such cases, in almost every state I have ever lived in.

You also assume these people will not get a fair hearing. Obviously they ARE getting one, or people wouldn't be getting released to go back to the place.

An investigation is being conducted, but I surely don't see the one-sidedness on the issue you are presenting.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Was it not you trying to point out that people can be arrested and held PRIOR TO conviction on suspicion of committing a crime? Seems on this issue you have done a 180 and are now concerned with the rights of the individuals.

I see no evidence "piling up" that supports your assumptions that the state is guilty of anything but doing its job to protect its citizens. They are conducting an investigtion based on an allegation. It is customary in such cases to remove the children and/or females alleged to be the victims in such cases, in almost every state I have ever lived in.

You also assume these people will not get a fair hearing. Obviously they ARE getting one, or people wouldn't be getting released to go back to the place.

An investigation is being conducted, but I surely don't see the one-sidedness on the issue you are presenting.

Ever been involved with Social Services GunnyL? They do NOT have the right with out evidence ( which they have none of) to interview children without parents present. The supposed crime is that 14 to 16 year old girls have been abused, yet they have removed every child of every age and then separated them from the mothers, whom are NOT accused of child abuse at all.

The only reason to do that is because the children are not telling them what they want to hear. And they think they can brow beat them into telling them something different. Believe me if a parent is coaching a child in an interview it is obvious and that parent can then be removed, BUT this does not meet that criteria.

Once again, just because you do not like this group, your biased. Remember this one some group you do like gets treated similarly and remember you thought it was fine for the State to violate parents rights and religious rights cause you happen to disagree with the religion in question.

AGAIN FOR THE SLOW. The raid was about a supposed rape of a 16 year old Girl and the Government claims that 14 to 16 year old GIRLS are abused. That does NOT give them the right to remove OTHER children with absolutely NO evidence of abuse and to separate the mothers that are NOT accused of abusing them

YOU are aiding and abetting the destruction of our legal system. The destruction of the Constitution. Get it through your head the Constitution means nothing if it can be ignored cause you do not like a group of people and deny them its protections.

Again, the MOTHERS are not accused of any crime. In fact the State originally claimed they were victims as well. The State bent over backwards to get every child a lawyer but only as an after thought considered the mothers, and then only after the mothers obviously did not play ball like the State wanted.

Rights do NOT exist if everyone is not afforded the same rights and protections.

Even the most hated organizations MUST have the same rights and protections afforded in the Constitution and our laws. In fact Especially those groups must have those rights. They must be given the same protections, they MUST be treated the same.

 

[Ravi]

the mothers, whom are NOT accused of child abuse at all.

Yet.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yet.

I suggest you learn how the Constitution and our legal system are supposed to work.

 

[Ravi]

I suggest you learn how the Constitution and our legal system are supposed to work.

An investigation is being conducted. People are being held for questioning. How is that un-constitutional?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

An investigation is being conducted. People are being held for questioning. How is that un-constitutional?

Are you really this stupid? The mothers have not even been accused of child abuse, in fact they were listed as victims. That is STILL true. The Government can not question children without the consent of the parent, unless they have evidence ALREADY of that parent abusing the child.

The Child protective services are completely Unconstitutional. Do some research on all the ways they VIOLATE the Constitution, the legal system and Parents rights. But eve they still have to acknowledge the right of a parent to be present if that parent is not the accused abuser.

Further the State has the same responsibility to get attorneys for those mothers as they do the children. BEFORE the Children are taken to court in an effort to remove them from the home. Not after, nor as an after thought.

 

[Ravi]

I guess I am that stupid because I can imagine that the children might give information to the authorities about the abuse if they aren't in the presence of their brainwashed mothers.

How exactly do you know there isn't any evidence?

 

[AllieBaba]

And yet it's criminal to hold terrorist suspects without affording them full due process.

Welfare workers are the ones who have separated everyone. The cops just helped them out. So it's a welfare investigation at this point, more than a criminal one. That's how they get away from the requirements of law.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D902KCU00&show_article=1

 

[Ravi]

There is some leeway in holding people for questioning without charging them. It would be illegal to hold them indefinitely without cause.

 

[Angel Heart]

An investigation is being conducted. People are being held for questioning. How is that un-constitutional?

Heck they can't even tell what kids belong to what parents. When asked kids will say a different person each time. Some of them they can't even figure out their age. There's so many tangles in this group, it will take time to work it out. Then there's the number of them... Even if each kid gets 10 minutes time being covered by a judge... They have 400+ kids... That's over 66 hours. This isn't an easy case in more ways that one.

 

[Angel Heart]

And yet it's criminal to hold terrorist suspects without affording them full due process.

Welfare workers are the ones who have separated everyone. The cops just helped them out. So it's a welfare investigation at this point, more than a criminal one. That's how they get away from the requirements of law.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D902KCU00&show_article=1

Welfare is the group that investigates child abuse... Not the cops... Department of Human Services (DHS) does it in Oregon. They are also the ones that issue food stamps, cash aid and Oregon Health Plan (OHP). This is still a criminal case.

 

[Ravi]

Heck they can't even tell what kids belong to what parents. When asked kids will say a different person each time. Some of them they can't even figure out their age. There's so many tangles in this group, it will take time to work it out. Then there's the number of them... Even if each kid gets 10 minutes time being covered by a judge... They have 400+ kids... That's over 66 hours. This isn't an easy case in more ways that one.

True. I still wish they had gotten the LDS church involved somehow.

It will be extremely difficult to figure out what is going on in a group that makes it's followers believe slavery is good for their souls.

 

[Angel Heart]

True. I still wish they had gotten the LDS church involved somehow.

It will be extremely difficult to figure out what is going on in a group that makes it's followers believe slavery is good for their souls.

I agree. LDS needs to be involved in this. They will be the best source of deprogramming.

 

[jff.law]

We are too fast to accuse the government of wrong doing when it is the criminals who need to be prosecuted. It has nothing to do with values, its about the laws. If you think its ok to smoke pot in your own home, it still doesn't make it legal to do that. You would not want a 40 year old man to marry your 14 year old daughter, and that is why we have laws that need to be enforced. There have been quite a few cases about school teachers who have sex with their students recently, is that OK too?

 

[jillian]

We are too fast to accuse the government of wrong doing when it is the criminals who need to be prosecuted.

I'd think an attorney would actually value the law and expect that government would adhere to the laws, too.

 

[dewclaw]

Heck they can't even tell what kids belong to what parents.

somebody wrote that info down didn't they? is that big of a fuck up?

 

[Gunny]

Ever been involved with Social Services GunnyL? They do NOT have the right with out evidence ( which they have none of) to interview children without parents present. The supposed crime is that 14 to 16 year old girls have been abused, yet they have removed every child of every age and then separated them from the mothers, whom are NOT accused of child abuse at all.

The only reason to do that is because the children are not telling them what they want to hear. And they think they can brow beat them into telling them something different. Believe me if a parent is coaching a child in an interview it is obvious and that parent can then be removed, BUT this does not meet that criteria.

Once again, just because you do not like this group, your biased. Remember this one some group you do like gets treated similarly and remember you thought it was fine for the State to violate parents rights and religious rights cause you happen to disagree with the religion in question.

AGAIN FOR THE SLOW. The raid was about a supposed rape of a 16 year old Girl and the Government claims that 14 to 16 year old GIRLS are abused. That does NOT give them the right to remove OTHER children with absolutely NO evidence of abuse and to separate the mothers that are NOT accused of abusing them

YOU are aiding and abetting the destruction of our legal system. The destruction of the Constitution. Get it through your head the Constitution means nothing if it can be ignored cause you do not like a group of people and deny them its protections.

Again, the MOTHERS are not accused of any crime. In fact the State originally claimed they were victims as well. The State bent over backwards to get every child a lawyer but only as an after thought considered the mothers, and then only after the mothers obviously did not play ball like the State wanted.

Rights do NOT exist if everyone is not afforded the same rights and protections.

Even the most hated organizations MUST have the same rights and protections afforded in the Constitution and our laws. In fact Especially those groups must have those rights. They must be given the same protections, they MUST be treated the same.

Being biased against the lifestyle and beliefs of this group is irrelevant to whether or not I think they are getting a raw deal legally.

And as a matter of fact, I had a friend whose kid got confiscated by social services in 29 Palms. They had to prove they weren't doing anything. Agree with it or not, that's the way the system works, and that's the way it works here as well.

The welfare of the children has been made paramount, and with good cause. It sucks for the people who haven't done anything, but look what doing nothing did for that kid that got away from Jeffrey Dahmer and went to the police. They handed him back over to Dahmer.

There was a discussion on NPR this AM about an 8 year old child who required extensive surgery to repair the damage to her vagina, but the stepdaddy is going to walk because there is no forensic evidence.

What's it take?

Legal or not, if some jackasses were trying that shit on my daughters when they were 16, the police wouldn't need anything but a broom and a dustpan.

 

[Angel Heart]

somebody wrote that info down didn't they? is that big of a fuck up?

Yeah it is... The children where born at home. They are using family bibles to track as much of it as they can. The births where not recorded with the hall of records.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Being biased against the lifestyle and beliefs of this group is irrelevant to whether or not I think they are getting a raw deal legally.

And as a matter of fact, I had a friend whose kid got confiscated by social services in 29 Palms. They had to prove they weren't doing anything. Agree with it or not, that's the way the system works, and that's the way it works here as well.

The welfare of the children has been made paramount, and with good cause. It sucks for the people who haven't done anything, but look what doing nothing did for that kid that got away from Jeffrey Dahmer and went to the police. They handed him back over to Dahmer.

There was a discussion on NPR this AM about an 8 year old child who required extensive surgery to repair the damage to her vagina, but the stepdaddy is going to walk because there is no forensic evidence.

What's it take?

Legal or not, if some jackasses were trying that shit on my daughters when they were 16, the police wouldn't need anything but a broom and a dustpan.

And that is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. The Constitution is CLEAR on our rights when charged with a crime. The State MUST prove GUILT. We are ASSUMED INNOCENT until the State does so.

But not in Family Court and not with Social Services. They get to ASSUME your Guilty and then require YOU to prove your not. Sometimes with out ever being told what it is you supposedly did. As in this case. There are NO charges at all against the mothers and there are NO charges at all that anyone molested or abused any child under the age of 14 and the only supposed charge for the boys is " they were taught to be abusers".

Our legal system is in shambles because you and others do not mind that this crap goes on. This group is being persecuted not for crimes but for their religion. They are being persecuted because they live differently then the "norm".

Grace is a perfect example of what the social services and the courts think. Those kids have loving parents that keep them fed, housed and clean and clothed, yet she likens a compound that is immaculate to a third world shit hole.

I have no doubt that the courts will take these children away from their parents and it won't be because they are in any danger, it will be because they practice a religion the Courts do not like.

 

[Angel Heart]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695271144,00.html

Vague child laws make FLDS case murky
By James Thalman
Deseret News
Published: April 17, 2008
Attorneys arguing over the removal of 416 children from the FLDS ranch will be debating laws that are often vague, vary significantly among states and, while intended to protect children being abused, do not always work in the child's best interests.
A hearing required to establish temporary managing conservatorship of a child — similar hearings are required in Utah — is to be held today. About 160 separate child removal petitions — one in the interest of 330 children taken from the ranch — have been filed in the 51st District Court in San Angelo, Texas, near the YFZ Ranch of the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

While the fate of those children remains undecided, a national observer and advocate of child welfare reform said if the children have been removed from their parents for no statutory reasons, they need to be returned.

"Since I'm not a lawyer, I can't say if any specific laws have been violated," said Richard Wexler, executive director of the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform. "But in general, the laws are extremely broad and extremely vague."

The federal courts can, however, become very involved in the daily life of a state child protection agency. The treatment of children taken into foster care by Utah's child protective services became a federal case that lasted 14 years. Federal court oversight ended this past June in the so-called "David C." class action lawsuit.

Despite accusations that Utah was intentionally procrastinating or outright refusing to comply with the settlement in the case, both sides said significant and needed improvements — such as increasing the number of caseworkers from 282 to 612 and making sure each child receives a medical, dental and mental health check-up while in state care — were the upshot of the case filed by the National Center for Youth Law in 1993.

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