Zionism and The Iranian Problem

Jesus Christ!!!!

Scooter has to pay me to do this job.

I feel like Kathianne teaching the basics of the Israeli/Palestinian issue to a bunch of little children who can't even find Palestine on a map of the Middle East : )
 
José;632809 said:
Totally comparable.

In my book, there is no difference between jews fleeing a warzone involving the Roman army and jewish zealots and palestinians leaving a warzone involving zionists and the surrounding arab countries.

And your ignorance about the palestinian national identity is abysmal.

The palestinian people DO NOT want to become egyptians, syrians and jordanians.

They want the world to recognise their right to live in their ancient land.

They will fight to the last man against any arab country that tries to assimilate them and destroy their national identity.

The Jews didn't 'flee the war zone'. The Jews initiated the war to wrest Jersusalem away from the occupying Romans. The Christians are the ones who fled the Jewish uprising around 70 A.D. resulting in the Romans defeating and ejecting the Jews from Jerusalem, and that was the beginning of the real rift between the Christians and Jews as the Jews thought the Christians to be cowards and traitors. (Actually you can appreciate their take on that.)

Prior to the Roman occupation in the first century B.C., the Jews had been evicted and sent into exile by the Babylonians. When the Persians defeated the Babylonians, the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem, but only the dedicated Zionists went back. The others had already made their homes where they had been exiled elsewhere and were prospering and did not want to return to the harsh life in store for them in the war torn city. Jerusalem was nevertheless the center of the Jewish world nevertheless.

The Jews also want the right to live on their ancient land that they believe was given to them by God and which was more recently given to them legally by the U.K. and the U.N. who "owned it" at the time. The Palestinians would be living peacefully with the Jews right now had they not declared Holy War against Israel and pledged themselves to obliterate Israel from the face of the Earth.

They could live peacefully with Israel now if they would acknowledge Israel's right to exist, would cease hostilities against Israel and denounce terrorist tactics, and would choose to be good neighbors and friends.

There is plenty of room to criticize Israel's policies and tactics at various times over the past 60 years. But Israel has not declared Holy War against anybody, and it has been forced into a defensive posture that would be unnecessary if the Arabs would allow the Jews a place in their world.
 
Originally posted by Foxfyre
They could live peacefully with Israel now if they would acknowledge Israel's right to exist, would cease hostilities against Israel and denounce terrorist tactics, and would choose to be good neighbors and friends.

Listen dude...

Don't take this the wrong way, but you, together with AllieBaba belong to a group of people I call the "what the hell is a palestinian refugee" crowd.

People who are completely clueless on this issue.

I'm preparing a megathread on this issue that will explain all the details of this century old conflict.

I still haven't made up my mind on the title of the thread but it will be either "The Clash of the Titans" or "Palestine for dummies".

Check out the Israel/Palestine section of the board every now and then and you won't be disapointed.
 
prepare to wear the label, jose.


I love this:

And it is not a generalisation if it is true.

:clap2:

I just wonder.. whyis it OK to generalize muslims... but jews? How many times do you think David Duke ever made that same statement?

I would reply to you Dr. Gump but it seems that some users won't accept a mod debating aggressively. I guess we've finally figured out how to put a cap on this topic once and for all.If it becomes necessary to shed my status I'll offer to finish this discussion with you.
 
José;632814 said:
Listen dude...

Don't take this the wrong way, but you, together with AllieBaba belong to a group of people I call the "what the hell is a palestinian refugee" crowd.

People who are completely clueless on this issue.

I'm preparing a megathread on this issue that will explain all the details of this century old conflict.

I still haven't made up my mind on the title of the thread but it will be either "The Clash of the Titans" or "Palestine for dummies".

Check out the Israel/Palestine section of the board every now and then and you won't be disapointed.

I hope you won't fill your 'mega thread' with all the prejudicial nonsense and hate speech you will find on most of the pro-Palestinian websites. And I hope it will include thoughtful and objective assessment of the realities of the situation and won't focus on benign or viscious anti-Semitism directed at the Israelis which some attempt to sanitize by calling it opposition to Zionism.

And I hope it won't be filled with red herrings and straw men designed to deflect any issues inconvenient to your advocacy and those who share it.

And be aware that some here have done some intense reading and study on this issue and have arrived at different conclusions than those you express.
 
Lord knows that if it is filled with EVIDENCE which is posted WITH LINKS to unbiased sources it will fall short of what you hope to see.


Funny, I don't recall a single post by foxfyre that addressed, debated or mentioned any one of the numerous posted links I've provided within the last week... but, everyone seems to be the rhetorical expert.


Yes, jose, make sure you aren't as heavy handed as we are with Europeans who want an ETHNICALLY PURE state. You'll definitively trigger the standard reaction if you don't make the zionists feel like the complete victim.


RED HERRINGS AND STRAWMEN.. Now THATS rich.
 
Or you could call the thread Virulent Anti-Israel Propaganda and Lies,

You do know your essential premise that the Jews made the palestinians leave is a lie, right?

Still curious about what should happen to the Jews in your Hamas Utopia? Do they get subjugated? deported? killed?

We're all waiting for your words of wisdom. Again, I'm not overly interested in the genesis of these issues from the year gimmel. I'm more curious as to how you resolve it, other than handing over Israel to the Palestinians.

Would be nice to get an answer instead of your usual strawman-filled propagandic rant.

I'm also kind of curious as to why you're so vested in this issue. It sure isn't your essential fairness and desire to do good.
 
Originally posted by Shogun
I would reply to you Dr. Gump but it seems that some users won't accept a mod debating aggressively. I guess we've finally figured out how to put a cap on this topic once and for all.If it becomes necessary to shed my status I'll offer to finish this discussion with you.

Lord knows that if it is filled with EVIDENCE which is posted WITH LINKS to unbiased sources it will fall short of what you hope to see.


Funny, I don't recall a single post by foxfyre that addressed, debated or mentioned any one of the numerous posted links I've provided within the last week... but, everyone seems to be the rhetorical expert
.

I read your comparisons between South Africa and Israel Shogun and this helps us understand the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I’m really disapointed with Grump’s support for Israel but I can understand the reasons behind it.

I assume Grump supports the right of the Maori people to move freely and settle residence anywhere they want in New Zealand but denies the same right to millions of palestinian refugees living in Gaza and the West Bank.

Grump supports equal rights between Anglos and Maoris in New Zealand and jewish supremacism in Palestine.

But how can a believer in democracy like Grump justify jewish racism in Palestine?

Simple. He reproduces the caricature of the palestinian people presented to him by the western press that portrays a dehumanising picture of palestinians as irrational monsters thirsty for jewish blood.

Well, how many races have Jews tried to wipe out in recent history?

The arabs and Persians are now trying to do it.


If only he knew that the same excuse was used by another but equally imoral racist state.

Just ask anyone who lived in South Africa during the last decade of apartheid, Shogun.

They will all tell you that the same propaganda was spewed by their government.

“The day the blacks take over is the day the genocide will begin”

“Whites will be expelled from South Africa, at best, and slaughtered, at worst.”

“BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...”


Even if you are old enough, you won't remember hearing these things in the international press at the time because the western press refused to reproduce the racist propaganda that came from the white government.

But do what I’m saying. Just ask a south african citizen in his 30’s, 40’s etc... and he/she will confirm my words.

Just replace palestinians for blacks and the slogans become the same:

“Drive us into the sea”, “kill us all”, blah, blah, blah...

Almost 20 years after the desegregation of South Africa, it seems like the black people of South Africa are the worst perpetrators of genocide in human history.

The difference between South Africa and Israel is the following:

During the last decades of apartheid the western press shielded the super patriotic american clown from the racist propaganda that came out of South Africa.

As for Israel, the same western press BOMBARD not only super patriotic american clowns but also Australians, New Zealanders etc, etc ...with the same racist propaganda that portrays the palestinian people as hordes of irrational arabs hellbent on killing every single jew.

I strongly urge Skrammer, Diuretic and Grump to dump the racist propaganda they were fed by the western press and revise their political ideas because it is totally absurd to support democracy in America, Australia and New Zealand and jewish racism in Palestine.
 
José;632810 said:
Jesus Christ!!!!

Scooter has to pay me to do this job.

I feel like Kathianne teaching the basics of the Israeli/Palestinian issue to a bunch of little children who can't even find Palestine on a map of the Middle East : )

Given you know nothing about the conflict that isn't propaganda or show the slightest understanding of the complexities of the reality, well... I doubt anyone's going to pay you.... well maybe in Gaza they might like you.
 
way to lather on the bullshit jew hating accusation, Jill. Of COURSE it isn't FAIRNESS or a desire to do GOOD when someone keeps bringing up how israel wants an ethnic based status for jews just like the Aryan germans. Of COURSE!

And yet you wonder why I beat you to the antisemite punchline.


Have you even read a single fucking piece of evidence I've already posted? I get the impression that you really don't give a damn if jews in israel don't want equal rights for muslims. I also get the STRONG impression that you would be totally against the same type of thing applied AGAINST JEWS in any other nation. Funny how that works...

You can insinuate that it's simple jew hatred all day long and it won't make it true. You can insist that posted evidence from the likes of the BBC, Haartz, reuters, NYtimes and jpost are ALL propaganda but that idea only sells to others who are purposfully willing to dazzle themselves under the same "israel is infallable, nay, JEWS are infallable" crock of shit that makes you believe that hebrew shit smells like roses (anything suggesting otherwise is clearly propaganda). At the end of the day YOU are still acting just as loyal to your race as the germans were to theirs.

Pretending that the creation of israel, and zionist jews themselves, are not the DRIVING FORCE behind israel and the standard of living for pals is funny but pretty sad at the same time. I'll QUOTE israels founders, Jill. just Say the word.


What happens to the jews? they understand what it means to be western by remembering that we in America dont PURGE our fucking nation of jews using the same arguement that israel uses to validate such. They get to remember that jews are not gods gift to the fucking planet and that humanity does, in fact, include the scummy fucking goyim outside the aparthied wall. They get to understand that hiding behind britain doesn't excuse them from the FACT that they canaanized yet another fucking burning bush claim despite the indigenous population.


hey, don't bother posting a source when, clearly, insinuating antisemtism works well enough for you. I've said it before, you are no better than a nazi sympathizer.
 
Given you know nothing about the conflict that isn't propaganda or show the slightest understanding of the complexities of the reality, well... I doubt anyone's going to pay you.... well maybe in Gaza they might like you.

Hey jill.. why dont you try addressing the issue rather than jumping under the "it's prooooopaganddaaaaaa" rug? If you can prove it then do so. Otherwise, you are not really proving anything IS propaganda by accusation alone.


But, hey.. feel free to keep the passive-aggresive inuendos up. It probably doesn't belay just how far you will go to whitewash israels bullshit when you can take off the team jersey.
 
Again, what happens to the Jews in your little Hamas paradise?

The jews keep half of the total land in dispute in Palisrael. They split Jerusalem and don't get to canaanize temple mount. If the jews can't put as much effort into healing palestine due to the sever fucking gash that has been the last 50 years as the WEST has invested in israel then they are no better than the same iran they bitch about left and right.

It's fucking wierd how black panther political attcks pretty much stopped after blacks stopped being disenfranchised from the United States, eh? What a fucking mind blower to imagine how investing in palestine would remove the kassam rockets. But, I guess to some removing the rockets will also remove the blank check policies, eh? And who wants that when pal life is so cheap, right? What was it you said?

Fuck em?

Indeed, your concern over non-jewish humanity is astounding, jill. Purely fucking brilliant.


Why don't you tell me what kind of an evil terrorist was Nelson Mandellah, Jill. Or, why don't you ignore that challenge today like you did the last two times I brought up the south african example.
 
Originally posted by jillian
Or you could call the thread Virulent Anti-Israel Propaganda and Lies,

You do know your essential premise that the Jews made the palestinians leave is a lie, right?

Still curious about what should happen to the Jews in your Hamas Utopia? Do they get subjugated? deported? killed?

We're all waiting for your words of wisdom. Again, I'm not overly interested in the genesis of these issues from the year gimmel. I'm more curious as to how you resolve it, other than handing over Israel to the Palestinians.

Would be nice to get an answer instead of your usual strawman-filled propagandic rant.

I'm also kind of curious as to why you're so vested in this issue. It sure isn't your essential fairness and desire to do good.

Jillian

Did you know my mother language has a verb that makes reference to the historic persecution and suffering of the jewish people?

It’s called “JUDIAR”.

Judiar means to “jew” someone, to mistreat someone, to treat someone bad.

Example:

Pare de judiar de minha irmã.

Translation:

Stop “jewing” my sister.

Stop treating my sister bad.

Stop treating my sister like a jew.

This verb was created in Portugal during the Inquisition when the jews were being persecuted and forced to abandon their faith or leave the country and sometimes even face death.

The mistreatment your people suffered during the ages was so real that it even entered the Portuguese language!!!!

And it is not a literary verb it is used in everyday conversation.

This verb do not exist in Spanish, which is amazing since the two languages are so similar to each other as well as the history of persecution in both countries.

Don’t tell me I am insentive to the suffering of the jewish people.

The language I learned from my mother brings in it a reminder of all the things your people went through.

And everytime I speak, hear, write or read the verb “JUDIAR” I am reminded of a people who was persecuted by the simple fact they worship God in a different way.

So don’t tell me I don’t care for the jewish people.

The reasons behind the creation of the state of Israel were noble and continue to be valid today as they were in 48:

A safe haven for a persecuted people.

But the establishment of a jewish supremacist state in Palestine that keeps the palestinian people herded in Gaza and the West Bank against their will is not the correct, moral way to achieve this goal.

Let’s try another type of political configuration, for example, an international protectorate where the security of both peoples will be guaranteed by the international community.

This is clearly a morally superior solution for the Israeli/Palestinian issue than the jewish racial dictatorship will ever be.
 
José;632875 said:
Jillian

Did you know my mother language has a verb that makes reference to the historic persecution and suffering of the jewish people?

It’s called “JUDIAR”.

Judiar means to “jew” someone, to mistreat someone, to treat someone bad.

Example:

Pare de judiar de minha irmã.

Translation:

Stop “jewing” my sister.

Stop treating my sister bad.

Stop treating my sister like a jew.

This verb was created in Portugal during the Inquisition when the jews were being persecuted and forced to abandon their faith or leave the country and sometimes even face death.

The mistreatment your people suffered during the ages was so real that it even entered the Portuguese language!!!!

And it is not a literary verb it is used in everyday conversation.

This verb do not exist in Spanish, which is amazing since the two languages are so similar to each other as well as the history of persecution in both countries.

Don’t tell me I am insentive to the suffering of the jewish people.

The language I learned from my mother brings in it a reminder of all the things your people went through.

And everytime I speak, hear, write or read the verb “JUDIAR” I am reminded of a people who was persecuted by the simple fact they worship God in a different way.

So don’t tell me I don’t care for the jewish people.

The reasons behind the creation of the state of Israel were noble and continue to be valid today as they were in 48:

A safe haven for a persecuted people.

But the establishment of a jewish supremacist state in Palestine that keeps the palestinian people herded in Gaza and the West Bank against their will is not the correct, moral way to achieve this goal.

Let’s try another type of political configuration, for example, an international protectorate where the security of both peoples will be guaranteed by the international community.

This is clearly a morally superior solution for the Israeli/Palestinian issue than the jewish racial dictatorship will ever be.

A very good post in my estimation, but you left out the one critical component that makes it all irrelevent in the short term.

Israel has not pledged destruction of the Palestinians nor any other people. The Palestinians both through their Hamas and Hezbollah leadership have pledged the destruction of Israel.

Israel has a past that includes terrorism, but that practice was abandoned many decades ago. Israel does not send sucide bombers into Palestinian neighborhoods or places of commerce for the intentional purpose of killing or maiming as many innocent men, women, and children as possible. The Palestians do that in Israeli neighborhoods and places of commerce.

Israel doesn't indiscriminately lob rockets into Palestinian neighborhoods trying to kill or hurt somebody. The Palestinians do that to the Israelis, however, primarily from lands the Israelis have vacated and turned over to the Palestinians.

Until the Palestinian leadership and people denounce terrorism, are willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and pledge to be a good neighbor and friend to Israel, Israel will continue to defend and protect itself however it deems it necessary to do that which generally means the Palestinians will get the worst of it.

It is unreasonable to demand that ANY nation play nice with people committed to destroy it.
 
The jews keep half of the total land in dispute in Palisrael. They split Jerusalem and don't get to canaanize temple mount. If the jews can't put as much effort into healing palestine due to the sever fucking gash that has been the last 50 years as the WEST has invested in israel then they are no better than the same iran they bitch about left and right.

It's fucking wierd how black panther political attcks pretty much stopped after blacks stopped being disenfranchised from the United States, eh? What a fucking mind blower to imagine how investing in palestine would remove the kassam rockets. But, I guess to some removing the rockets will also remove the blank check policies, eh? And who wants that when pal life is so cheap, right? What was it you said?

Fuck em?

Indeed, your concern over non-jewish humanity is astounding, jill. Purely fucking brilliant.


Why don't you tell me what kind of an evil terrorist was Nelson Mandellah, Jill. Or, why don't you ignore that challenge today like you did the last two times I brought up the south african example.

There is no palisrael.

There is a State of Israel. There could be a Palestine, all the pals have to do is disavow the destruction of Israel. They refuse to do that and instead lob kadushas into Israel.

Mostly, I'm curious as to why you think that the pals should get what they could have had 62 years ago before the Arabs launched their attacks against Israel?

Why should Israel give up its sovereignty and become some international protectorate. Screw that... how do you think Americans would feel if anyone suggested such a thing about us.

Should Israel trust the international community, which didn't think it appropriate to respond to Hezbollah missiles, to protect it. Again, screw that... Israel has a right to defend itself.

You talk about Palestinians as if they are Israeli citizens. They aren't. Arab citizens of Israel are treated very well. Pals are no more citizens of Israel than I am of Belarus. And I don't get to make demands for my ancestral properties simply because my great grandparents left because of the pogroms. That's life.. tough.

It's not that I'm unsympathetic to the Palestinians. It's that they have to step up to the plate, abandon the destruction of Israel as a goal and actually start accepting responsibilty... and reality.
 
prepare to wear the label, jose.
I love this:

And it is not a generalisation if it is true.

:clap2:

I just wonder.. whyis it OK to generalize muslims... but jews? How many times do you think David Duke ever made that same statement?

I would reply to you Dr. Gump but it seems that some users won't accept a mod debating aggressively. I guess we've finally figured out how to put a cap on this topic once and for all.If it becomes necessary to shed my status I'll offer to finish this discussion with you.

It is not a generalisation if it is true. You fail to address the point re the banks of the River Jordan.

You can debate as aggressively as you like. I do not have a problem with it.
 
The jews keep half of the total land in dispute in Palisrael. They split Jerusalem and don't get to canaanize temple mount. If the jews can't put as much effort into healing palestine due to the sever fucking gash that has been the last 50 years as the WEST has invested in israel then they are no better than the same iran they bitch about left and right.

It's fucking wierd how black panther political attcks pretty much stopped after blacks stopped being disenfranchised from the United States, eh? What a fucking mind blower to imagine how investing in palestine would remove the kassam rockets. But, I guess to some removing the rockets will also remove the blank check policies, eh? And who wants that when pal life is so cheap, right? What was it you said?

Fuck em?

Indeed, your concern over non-jewish humanity is astounding, jill. Purely fucking brilliant.


Why don't you tell me what kind of an evil terrorist was Nelson Mandellah, Jill. Or, why don't you ignore that challenge today like you did the last two times I brought up the south african example.


With the exception of the Jerusalem question, the Pals have been offered that in the past and turned it down. In fact, in the original partition they got half of Jerusalem but then tried to take over the whole place and got their butts kicked. Where is your outrage at the Palistinians actions? And if you are so outraged about the West Bank, why aren't you demanding it be returned to the "original", rightful owners Jordan? Or because they are arabs, that's "different"? BTW, when did the Palestinians come into being as a people? Do you know the make up of the Jordanian peoples (how many are Palestinian).

You STILL have not ONCE given any criticism to the Palestinians. All you have done is given them excuses blaming the Israelis. I have criticised the Israelis - when are you going to take your blinders off and do the same re the Pals?
 
WHY should israel play ball?


Because israel is RELIANT upon the west, excuse me AMERICA, in order to maintain itself during the entirety of its existence. 1955 America may not have had any wualms with a racist jewish state if it took jews out of America. 2007 America won't rationalize systematic racism in israel for the sake of some lame ass jewish ancient history excuse. let's see big bad israel huff and puff after the attack dogs leaves the pen.

America feels the retribution for it's support for israel. Israel does not exist in a vacuum. As much as you may think otherwise there ARE reactions to the actions of israel. There is a LOT of anti-american sentiment in the mid east that would be solved simply on making israel play a fair game. NUKES? APARTHEID WALLS? Racist laws of return for jews and a 'dozer solution for pals? I don't care if you think the reaction of the pals invalidates their similar historic claim the land. Considering how you constantly dodge anything that the label will stick to it is clear that NO amount of human equality will trump your desire for an israeli double standard.

Why should they give up their racist policies? Because israel isn't so bad to the bone that it can start whipping out nuclear solutions without the west coming in to correct it's own. You saw it when israel attacked civilians in lebenon. Youll see it again when israel decides to canaanize temple mount. Israel cannot justify the same racism that the germans tried to play.

SHOCKER! a german could rationalize an ethnic aryian nation! SHOCKER!

SHOCKER! a white south african DENIES that there is an aparthied in sourth africa. SHOCKER!


Why don't you address the nelson mandella point I keep bringing up, Jill? What on earth might you be avoiding?


"defending itself" doesnt mean PHOSPHORUS WEAPONS IN CIVILIAN POPULATIONS.

nor does it mean subjugating an entire ethnic minority population.

nor does it mean preserving the hebrew nature of the israeli government with imbedded racist policies.

Israel gets it's support from the same international community that you shut disregarded. FUCK THAT? yea, I bet you don't say that when israel plays by the same nuclear standards as everyone else. I bet you don't say that when America take the jewish hand out of the tax aid cookie jar. Spare me the boohoo shit. You haven't seen the antisemitism that your grandparents knew in your entire fucking life. I'll give you the same line I give christians: Being told "NO" is not persicution no matter how many fake ass croc tears you shed.


of COURSE they are not israeli citizens! That's the fucking point behind israeli racism. How quick do you think they would be welcomed with open arms IF THEY WERE JEWISH INSTEAD OF SCUMMY FUCKING GOYIM?


yea, Jill, your concern of pals was pretty much summed up in the "fuck em" line. Your concern extends only as far as the maximum jewish benefit. If you gave a damn about non-jews in palisrael you'd look beyond your ethic team jersey for the humanity and travesty of violence UNIVERSALLY applicable in this giant clusterfuck. But, your quickness to throw the antisemite switch conveys more than your bare minimum note of concern.


And, no.. there is no Palisrael today.. But I suggest you take Olmerts fearful message to heart. Without a Pal state there will be no jewish state of israel. Israel WILL integrate if it doesn't start investing in more than strictly jews. The west won't justify a racist state even if a philharmonic chorus of choreographed jews screaming antisemite makes the jpost.


Like I said, the apathy makes me sick. At least try to be as benevolent to pals as WE have been to israel. There really are more victims here than those who sport the yarmulkes.
 
It is not a generalisation if it is true. You fail to address the point re the banks of the River Jordan.

You can debate as aggressively as you like. I do not have a problem with it.

So... do we apply that same Generalization rule to jews too? blacks? Asians? For real, is this some kind of flip side fucking twilight zone episode or something?

So, then it's OK to insist that any given jew is PROBABLY a money grubbing banker type with a large nose and more loyalty to israel than America? Fuck that. Maybe you can give me some examples of TRUE GENERALIZATIONS. Feel free to spread your list of applicable gernalizations around by race, nationality.. you know.. ALL the good stereotypes. I'll be waiting for your list.


No, I addressed your bank of the river jordan with pointing out how absolutely rediculous it is to Emminant Domain nations. How does the status of the land invalidate the people who live there again? kentucky is pretty fucking poor.... so, what is stopping the UAE from taking that state as a North American muslim state? I mean, Have you seen what they've done with Dubai?@!? GOLDEN TRAILER PARKS galore! And totally justified! right? I mean, it's not like the poor ass white trash in that state can ever hope to achieve such wonders on that same land, eh?

Further, so manifest destiny was justified because in 10k years the natives never build a fucking railroad to the west?

:thup:
 

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