Zarqawi's Grisly Path To Power

[nycflasher]

NYC, quoting out of context is a rule violation on this board. I said:

Wade, I didn't quote you out of context. Why should we not be outraged at the beheading of our allies and fellow Americans? As someone else said, tell that to their families. Can't we be appauled by both and all incidents of turture and MURDER? MURDER...Wade. Ritual murder.

 

[eric]

Can't we be appauled by both and all incidents of turture and MURDER?

I think NYC just hit it on the head. One act does not justify the other !

 

[MtnBiker]

I think NYC just hit it on the head. One act does not justify the other !

It does to a moral equivalant sycophant.

 

[wade]

My point is that islamic terrorists in particular were beheading people before abu ghraib, just like moslems in general have been beheading people for centuries.

Besides whether they happened in Iraq or Afghanistan is irrelevant, they could just as easily caputred people in Afghanistan and claimed their rationale was for the situation in Iraq. Of course, their publicized rationale is a farce. They are doing it to scare us, not because men were humiliated in a prison cell in Iraq.

Finally, the actions of the Taliban, al Qaeda, and the terrorists in Iraq are linked. It's the same problem.

I disagree.

With Daniel Pearl, you are right, they maybe did it to scare us, or perhaps they really thought he was CIA and did it out of revenge. In anycase the response, both in the Arab and the rest of the world was negative, and it didn't happen again.

With the recent beheadings, things are different. I think a big part of why they are doing it is because of the abuse, and particularly the humiliation, of Arab prisoners.

Finally, I don't see a lot of difference between a proper beheading and most other means of execution - but I have to agree this sawing off the head bit is particularly viscious.

Wade.

 

[Zhukov]

With the recent beheadings, things are different. I think a big part of why they are doing it is because of the abuse, and particularly the humiliation, of Arab prisoners.

Do you really believe that?

I'm off a mind that these terrorists are smarter than some people like to believe, and they know us better than some would like to admit. They saw an oppourtunity to play off the western world's media addiction and help the anti-war left. The primary point was to scare and horrify westerners, but the abuse scandal gave them an oppourtunity to excuse what they were going to do anyway, knowing that many people wouldn't bother considering the fact that decapitating some innocent person who had absolutely nothing to do with the abuse was compeletly disproportional to the crime the beheading was purporting to address. They knew those people would focus on the why as the terrorists saw it. That they were right, and many people did, should give pause to everyone.

I don't think they care too much about the scandal at abu ghraib, but they noticed that we cared, and they took advantage of that fact.

I think they'd be decapitating people today whether those pictures came out or not, because moslems have been decapitating people for 1500 years.

http://tribunetimes.com/news/opinion/2004/09/21/2004092139686.htm

 

[wade]

Wade, I didn't quote you out of context. Why should we not be outraged at the beheading of our allies and fellow Americans? As someone else said, tell that to their families. Can't we be appauled by both and all incidents of turture and MURDER? MURDER...Wade. Ritual murder.

Yes we can be appauled by such incidents, just don't quote my comments in such a way that the context is lost.

Wade.

 

[wade]

Do you really believe that?

I'm off a mind that these terrorists are smarter than some people like to believe, and they know us better than some would like to admit. They saw an oppourtunity to play off the western world's media addiction and help the anti-war left. The primary point was to scare and horrify westerners, but the abuse scandal gave them an oppourtunity to excuse what they were going to do anyway, knowing that many people wouldn't bother considering the fact that decapitating some innocent person who had absolutely nothing to do with the abuse was compeletly disproportional to the crime the beheading was purporting to address. They knew those people would focus on the why as the terrorists saw it. That they were right, and many people did, should give pause to everyone.

I don't think they care too much about the scandal at abu ghraib, but they noticed that we cared, and they took advantage of that fact.

I think they'd be decapitating people today whether those pictures came out or not, because moslems have been decapitating people for 1500 years.

http://tribunetimes.com/news/opinion/2004/09/21/2004092139686.htm

As I said, I don't see much difference between a proper quick and clean beheading and most other forms of execution. What does it matter that they've been beheading people for 1500 years, we've been hanging them for at least that long, and we (the West) have also used beheading, electrocution, garroting, shooting, and chemicals for executions. All things considered, a proper beheading is probably one of the less brutal means of excecution.

We differ in our view of the motivations. I agree with a lot of what you say, but I also think that the humiliation of Arab men, in particular using known taboo's of the Moslim faith, has also motivated and inspired the brutal improperly executed beheadings.

I think you are dead wrong that they don't care about the abuses at Abu Gharib - any time the tenats of Islam are thrown in their faces it offends all Arabs, just as it would and does offend us. And I don't think they care that much about what the "libs" in the USA think. Their goal is to strike fear into coalition countries but it is also not to offend the sensibilities of the Arab world which they rely upon for overt, tacit, and covert support. The abuses at Abu Gharib ensured they would not offend those sensiblities and would not weaken their base of support amoung the Arab/Islamic peoples.

Wade.

 

[Zhukov]

As I said, I don't see much difference between a proper quick and clean beheading and most other forms of execution. What does it matter that they've been beheading people for 1500 years,

It matters because my point is they didn't start beheading people because of the abuses at abu ghraib. Sawing of people's head to intimidate us in order to get us to leave Iraq would have happened whether or not the incidents at abu ghraib had occured.

but I also think that the humiliation of Arab men, in particular using known taboo's of the Moslim faith, has also motivated and inspired the brutal improperly executed beheadings.

I think you are dead wrong that they don't care about the abuses at Abu Gharib - any time the tenats of Islam are thrown in their faces it offends all Arabs, just as it would and does offend us.

I base that assertion on how little value they obviously place on human life, including the lives of fellow moslems. They blow up Iraqi children to wound our soldiers. Do you seriously believe people like that care if some fool has women's underwear on his head?

And I don't think they care that much about what the "libs" in the USA think.

Well, look at it this way:

These guys were trained if not directly by bin Laden, then by adherents of his using his methods. And what made bin Laden famous to begin with? What started his career? Fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.

It was after he was victorious against one Super Power that he began to imagine he could be victorious against the other.

He studied our culture and our history, and if you wanted to find our weakness what period of American history would intrigue you?

The Vietnam war.

During the Vietnam War the Communists knew their best chance for victory lie not in conventional warfare, for they never won a major battle, but in fomenting the anti-war liberal movement that was growing in American. They were right, and it worked.

Do you think bin Laden would miss that fact? I don't. In fact I think he's on occasion specifically referred to it.

 

[wade]

It matters because my point is they didn't start beheading people because of the abuses at abu ghraib. Sawing of people's head to intimidate us in order to get us to leave Iraq would have happened whether or not the incidents at abu ghraib had occured.

But normally these beheadings have been done using a single stroke from a heavy sharp blade. The sawing off bit is not normal.

I base that assertion on how little value they obviously place on human life, including the lives of fellow moslems. They blow up Iraqi children to wound our soldiers. Do you seriously believe people like that care if some fool has women's underwear on his head?

Then I don't think you understand the culture. The sacrifice of fellow moslims is a price they find acceptable - and that is them killing their own. However, us killing them is different, and humiliating them and their faith is even worse.

Well, look at it this way:

These guys were trained if not directly by bin Laden, then by adherents of his using his methods. And what made bin Laden famous to begin with? What started his career? Fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.

It was after he was victorious against one Super Power that he began to imagine he could be victorious against the other.

He studied our culture and our history, and if you wanted to find our weakness what period of American history would intrigue you?

The Vietnam war.

During the Vietnam War the Communists knew their best chance for victory lie not in conventional warfare, for they never won a major battle, but in fomenting the anti-war liberal movement that was growing in American. They were right, and it worked.

Do you think bin Laden would miss that fact? I don't. In fact I think he's on occasion specifically referred to it.

I don't disagree that Bin Ladin looked at Vietnam for guidance. But I disagree with your premise as to how the communists defeated the USA in Vietnam in the first place. The "liberal anti-war movement" in the USA was only a realtively small part of it, what really ended it was the expense of that war, which through the USA into a serious recession. If it had just been the US peace movement, the war would have continued for several more years.

Bin-Ladin looked at his defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan as not only a local victory, but also one which brought down the Soviets because it wounded their economy beyond recovery. That is his goal with the USA as well - and we may well have fallen for his trap.

Wade.