Your belief system is stupid

[aris2chat]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

Example please.

Gays, abortions, muslims, mormons, blacks and other racial groups, atheists, even other political systems.
Christians used to wage war on africans, asians, south americans and other christians. They committed genocide against other christian groups, against pagans, those believed to be witches, women in general, against jews, muslims, hindus, etc.. They have forced people to become christians.
Churches preach about hate and going to war against those they label as evil because they are not members of that particular church.
Churches used to teach slavery and submission of women. Many still treat women as slaves or property. They push religion onto people and even so so far as to baptize the dead of other faiths.
There are millions of religions but christians preach and even threaten others with hell because there is no path to god expect their particular church.

How many wars have not involved christians? How many have been told they are at war against evil and that war is in the name of god?

Christianity has had a bloody and cruel history.

When has war not invoked the name of god by one group or another?

 

[RandomVariable]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

Example please.

Gays, abortions, muslims, mormons, blacks and other racial groups, atheists, even other political systems.
Christians used to wage war on africans, asians, south americans and other christians. They committed genocide against other christian groups, against pagans, those believed to be witches, women in general, against jews, muslims, hindus, etc.. They have forced people to become christians.
Churches preach about hate and going to war against those they label as evil because they are not members of that particular church.
Churches used to teach slavery and submission of women. Many still treat women as slaves or property. They push religion onto people and even so so far as to baptize the dead of other faiths.
There are millions of religions but christians preach and even threaten others with hell because there is no path to god expect their particular church.

How many wars have not involved christians? How many have been told they are at war against evil and that war is in the name of god?

Christianity has had a bloody and cruel history.

When has war not invoked the name of god by one group or another?

Ah, I see we are in the faith versus the faithful quagmire. The faith of Christianity is in Jesus. The faithful being the ones hanging from that rope. The faith of Islam is Mohammad. The faithful being the ones who tied that rope. Now the question is was those Islamic faithful truly following the teachings of Mohammad when they hung those people? Another question is, would the Christian faithful truly be following the teachings of Jesus if they hung those people? I admit, it is indeed a quagmire. Is it the faith or is it the faithful. I guess it comes down to whether or not there really is a god.

 

[aris2chat]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

Example please.

Gays, abortions, muslims, mormons, blacks and other racial groups, atheists, even other political systems.
Christians used to wage war on africans, asians, south americans and other christians. They committed genocide against other christian groups, against pagans, those believed to be witches, women in general, against jews, muslims, hindus, etc.. They have forced people to become christians.
Churches preach about hate and going to war against those they label as evil because they are not members of that particular church.
Churches used to teach slavery and submission of women. Many still treat women as slaves or property. They push religion onto people and even so so far as to baptize the dead of other faiths.
There are millions of religions but christians preach and even threaten others with hell because there is no path to god expect their particular church.

How many wars have not involved christians? How many have been told they are at war against evil and that war is in the name of god?

Christianity has had a bloody and cruel history.

When has war not invoked the name of god by one group or another?

Ah, I see we are in the faith versus the faithful quagmire. The faith of Christianity is in Jesus. The faithful being the ones hanging from that rope. The faith of Islam is Mohammad. The faithful being the ones who tied that rope. Now the question is was those Islamic faithful truly following the teachings of Mohammad when they hung those people? Another question is, would the Christian faithful truly be following the teachings of Jesus if they hung those people? I admit, it is indeed a quagmire. Is it the faith or is it the faithful. I guess it comes down to whether or not there really is a god.

Were christians when they committed atrocities?
The violent, hateful and insane use god to justify their actions. They claim they are action on god's orders or doing his will.
When preaching in church, they are telling the congregation that hate is good, that was is justified, that killing is righteous.
God wants us to kill and be killed in the name of faith? What then cannot be justified in the name of religion and god?
Will we be saying we were doing god's work when caught speeding? "I was proving god exists and protects those who believe"? When stealing, "god told us to leave a percentage of a field for those in need to reap, so I was just taking that share from the store"? Should we justify a coup, "The government denies god and church, so we are over throwing the government in the name of god"?
"I killed by daughter because she talked back to me", "I killed my wife because she wore different fabrics", "I killed my niece for having an affair", "I sold my daughter in marriage for a new car".........................

Religion and god can be used to justify even the most abhorrent acts.

Is this really why we should believe? For christians, they use a bible that is erroneous to justify their actions. If you must believe, keep it to yourself. Use faith to improve yourself not to impose on others. Fix your insides, not everyone else.

Hate in the name of god is not excusable. Hate "hate" and take action to change it not to perpetrate violence and more hate of others. Stop labeling and judging others in the name of god. Everyone should be the same, children of god, if there is a god. If you must use religion, use it to end violence and expose the hypocrisy of those who claim to commit crimes in god's name. change the world for the better, not destroy those who are different.

Reason and logic are also gifts of mankind, learn to use them for the betterment of all instead of waving god around like a flag.

 

[RandomVariable]

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

Example please.

Gays, abortions, muslims, mormons, blacks and other racial groups, atheists, even other political systems.
Christians used to wage war on africans, asians, south americans and other christians. They committed genocide against other christian groups, against pagans, those believed to be witches, women in general, against jews, muslims, hindus, etc.. They have forced people to become christians.
Churches preach about hate and going to war against those they label as evil because they are not members of that particular church.
Churches used to teach slavery and submission of women. Many still treat women as slaves or property. They push religion onto people and even so so far as to baptize the dead of other faiths.
There are millions of religions but christians preach and even threaten others with hell because there is no path to god expect their particular church.

How many wars have not involved christians? How many have been told they are at war against evil and that war is in the name of god?

Christianity has had a bloody and cruel history.

When has war not invoked the name of god by one group or another?

Ah, I see we are in the faith versus the faithful quagmire. The faith of Christianity is in Jesus. The faithful being the ones hanging from that rope. The faith of Islam is Mohammad. The faithful being the ones who tied that rope. Now the question is was those Islamic faithful truly following the teachings of Mohammad when they hung those people? Another question is, would the Christian faithful truly be following the teachings of Jesus if they hung those people? I admit, it is indeed a quagmire. Is it the faith or is it the faithful. I guess it comes down to whether or not there really is a god.

Were christians when they committed atrocities?
The violent, hateful and insane use god to justify their actions. They claim they are action on god's orders or doing his will.
When preaching in church, they are telling the congregation that hate is good, that was is justified, that killing is righteous.
God wants us to kill and be killed in the name of faith? What then cannot be justified in the name of religion and god?
Will we be saying we were doing god's work when caught speeding? "I was proving god exists and protects those who believe"? When stealing, "god told us to leave a percentage of a field for those in need to reap, so I was just taking that share from the store"? Should we justify a coup, "The government denies god and church, so we are over throwing the government in the name of god"?
"I killed by daughter because she talked back to me", "I killed my wife because she wore different fabrics", "I killed my niece for having an affair", "I sold my daughter in marriage for a new car".........................

Religion and god can be used to justify even the most abhorrent acts.

Is this really why we should believe? For christians, they use a bible that is erroneous to justify their actions. If you must believe, keep it to yourself. Use faith to improve yourself not to impose on others. Fix your insides, not everyone else.

Hate in the name of god is not excusable. Hate "hate" and take action to change it not to perpetrate violence and more hate of others. Stop labeling and judging others in the name of god. Everyone should be the same, children of god, if there is a god. If you must use religion, use it to end violence and expose the hypocrisy of those who claim to commit crimes in god's name. change the world for the better, not destroy those who are different.

Reason and logic are also gifts of mankind, learn to use them for the betterment of all instead of waving god around like a flag.

No, no, no. The question is, is there a god?

 

[aris2chat]

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

Example please.

Gays, abortions, muslims, mormons, blacks and other racial groups, atheists, even other political systems.
Christians used to wage war on africans, asians, south americans and other christians. They committed genocide against other christian groups, against pagans, those believed to be witches, women in general, against jews, muslims, hindus, etc.. They have forced people to become christians.
Churches preach about hate and going to war against those they label as evil because they are not members of that particular church.
Churches used to teach slavery and submission of women. Many still treat women as slaves or property. They push religion onto people and even so so far as to baptize the dead of other faiths.
There are millions of religions but christians preach and even threaten others with hell because there is no path to god expect their particular church.

How many wars have not involved christians? How many have been told they are at war against evil and that war is in the name of god?

Christianity has had a bloody and cruel history.

When has war not invoked the name of god by one group or another?

Ah, I see we are in the faith versus the faithful quagmire. The faith of Christianity is in Jesus. The faithful being the ones hanging from that rope. The faith of Islam is Mohammad. The faithful being the ones who tied that rope. Now the question is was those Islamic faithful truly following the teachings of Mohammad when they hung those people? Another question is, would the Christian faithful truly be following the teachings of Jesus if they hung those people? I admit, it is indeed a quagmire. Is it the faith or is it the faithful. I guess it comes down to whether or not there really is a god.

Were christians when they committed atrocities?
The violent, hateful and insane use god to justify their actions. They claim they are action on god's orders or doing his will.
When preaching in church, they are telling the congregation that hate is good, that was is justified, that killing is righteous.
God wants us to kill and be killed in the name of faith? What then cannot be justified in the name of religion and god?
Will we be saying we were doing god's work when caught speeding? "I was proving god exists and protects those who believe"? When stealing, "god told us to leave a percentage of a field for those in need to reap, so I was just taking that share from the store"? Should we justify a coup, "The government denies god and church, so we are over throwing the government in the name of god"?
"I killed by daughter because she talked back to me", "I killed my wife because she wore different fabrics", "I killed my niece for having an affair", "I sold my daughter in marriage for a new car".........................

Religion and god can be used to justify even the most abhorrent acts.

Is this really why we should believe? For christians, they use a bible that is erroneous to justify their actions. If you must believe, keep it to yourself. Use faith to improve yourself not to impose on others. Fix your insides, not everyone else.

Hate in the name of god is not excusable. Hate "hate" and take action to change it not to perpetrate violence and more hate of others. Stop labeling and judging others in the name of god. Everyone should be the same, children of god, if there is a god. If you must use religion, use it to end violence and expose the hypocrisy of those who claim to commit crimes in god's name. change the world for the better, not destroy those who are different.

Reason and logic are also gifts of mankind, learn to use them for the betterment of all instead of waving god around like a flag.

No, no, no. The question is, is there a god?

Not one that needs our prays or listens to out pleas. Not one that gave us any particular religion. Not one guiding us.
If there is anything to a creating force, it is so far removed from us that it does not matter.
Our moral code should be one of logic and care for all life on this planet. One of moderation in all things. One of balance and reason.

 

[LittleNipper]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

No, people professing to be "Christians" may have done such things; however, when Jesus said, " If ANYONE offends a little child, it would be better to hang a millstone around his neck and cast him into the deepest part of the sea" I believe HE meant it. A Christian cannot be a Nazi and a Christian too. He will either love one and hate the other ----but he cannot reasonably love both!

 

[aris2chat]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

No, people professing to be "Christians" may have done such things; however, when Jesus said, " If ANYONE offends a little child, it would be better to hang a millstone around his neck and cast him into the deepest part of the sea" I believe HE meant it. A Christian cannot be a Nazi and a Christian too. He will either love one and hate the other ----but he cannot reasonably love both!

A child, not a fetus or infant. We all want to protect children, but that does not mean we should deny the woman her life or her rights to decide. Bible does not take away the right of a woman to choose birth control or abortion.

All faith claim their morals are the only or better ones. We have to use reason, not faith to live our lives. We have free will and the ability to choose for a reason. We do not have a right to impose our choices on others.

Guess what, nazis were for the most part christians. Hitler want to be a Jesuit monk but was denied. Christians imprisoning and killing other christians, as well as those who were not christians. Hitler used the symbols of the christian faith to advance his vision.

Men that attended church had no qualms about killing children in war. They still do.

From Constantine to the crusades to today, we still have those of faith that kill in the name of god.

 

[LittleNipper]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

Example please.

Gays, abortions, muslims, mormons, blacks and other racial groups, atheists, even other political systems.
Christians used to wage war on africans, asians, south americans and other christians. They committed genocide against other christian groups, against pagans, those believed to be witches, women in general, against jews, muslims, hindus, etc.. They have forced people to become christians.
Churches preach about hate and going to war against those they label as evil because they are not members of that particular church.
Churches used to teach slavery and submission of women. Many still treat women as slaves or property. They push religion onto people and even so so far as to baptize the dead of other faiths.
There are millions of religions but christians preach and even threaten others with hell because there is no path to god expect their particular church.

How many wars have not involved christians? How many have been told they are at war against evil and that war is in the name of god?

Christianity has had a bloody and cruel history.

When has war not invoked the name of god by one group or another?

SOME select Christian groups professing to be Christian have done terrible things. But not everyone saying, "Lord, Lord," is indeed a Bible believing, born-again Christian. There are those who don't believe that the Bible is entirely the inspired Word of God. There are those that reject the divine attributes of Jesus Christ. There are those who don't accept 6 literal days of CREATION, the Flood, the Old Testament, and the virgin birth. There are those that think marriage can be redefined to be all inclusive of all forms of consent. There are those who define their Christianity through the works of their own hands. There are those who expect their leadership to define Christianity for them.

I believe that you will find that of such there are historical problems. And the fact is, being a Christian involves a relationship with GOD the Father, through Christ the Son, by the way of the Holy Spirit. True Christianity has nothing whatsoever to do with being a part of the "right" crowd nor aligning oneself with some "church" authority to please God. It is about entirely placing one's faith in God for salvation only HE can provide.

 

[LittleNipper]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

No, people professing to be "Christians" may have done such things; however, when Jesus said, " If ANYONE offends a little child, it would be better to hang a millstone around his neck and cast him into the deepest part of the sea" I believe HE meant it. A Christian cannot be a Nazi and a Christian too. He will either love one and hate the other ----but he cannot reasonably love both!

A child, not a fetus or infant. We all want to protect children, but that does not mean we should deny the woman her life or her rights to decide. Bible does not take away the right of a woman to choose birth control or abortion.

All faith claim their morals are the only or better ones. We have to use reason, not faith to live our lives. We have free will and the ability to choose for a reason. We do not have a right to impose our choices on others.

Guess what, nazis were for the most part christians. Hitler want to be a Jesuit monk but was denied. Christians imprisoning and killing other christians, as well as those who were not christians. Hitler used the symbols of the christian faith to advance his vision.

Men that attended church had no qualms about killing children in war. They still do.

From Constantine to the crusades to today, we still have those of faith that kill in the name of god.

If you are going to condemn ALL Christians by what some professing to behave done, you will have far more problem defending atheism. Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Castro have done terrible things against people whose ONLY "crime" was their faith (if that could indeed be considered a crime by any right thinking individual). As for Hitler and the Nazis, he and they were like chameleons. It's now widely known that Hitler intended to eventual ban all religion and place himself as head over the nationalized religion. He eventually nationalized all education and closed religious schools wherever he gained control.

 

[LittleNipper]

Was Hitler a Christian?
October 30, 1999
Dear Straight Dope:

In my numerous online debates in various chatrooms, I have learned the following: many Christians seem to think that Adolf Hitler was an atheist (or at least wasn't "Christian"). Of course I and my fellow atheists know better, as Hitler mentions his devotion to Christianity numerous times in his writings. Can you clear this up for me? Was Hitler an "honest to God" Christian, or was he simply using religion as a means of control?

— Carl Stieger

The short answer is a definite "maybe" or, more precisely, "probably neither." The looooong answer is somewhat more complicated.

You are right that Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")! See photo, below.

First, let's look at what he said that seems to put him on the anti-Christian side:

According to a press release from Catholic League President, William A. Donohue (2/4/99): "Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'" The Catholic League also quoted Hitler, in a 4/23/99 Op-Ed ad in the New York Times, as saying, "Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn't know Christianity and syphilis." Ouch!

Unfortunately, the press release had no citations attached and the Catholic League did not include any reference to it in the package they sent when I asked about them. The syphilis quote is cited as having come from Hitler's Third Reich: A Documentary History, by Louis Snyder, but they are quoting Patrick Buchanan quoting this book. In other words, they may not have actually checked the source themselves (if they did, why mention Buchanan?). This makes me a bit worried about the validity of both of these (I have not been able to find the book to check on my own). While this doesn't necessarily make them untrue, we have to recognize that there are a lot of bogus Hitler quotes floating around, some allegedly coming directly from Mein Kampf, for example. The problem is that people who have actually read Mein Kampf find that they aren't in there anywhere! I'm not saying these quotes fall into that category, but just a note to be wary of lots of the unsourced "quotes" that are around. (I did my best to check out the various Mein Kampf quotes that I use here, including referencing a friend who actually plowed through the whole thing.)

That said, we can move on to some other relevant info. Jehuda Bauer, Professor of Holocaust Studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, describes the real "god" of Hitler and the Nazis in his article, "The Trauma of the Holocaust: Some Historical Perspectives," by saying: ""They wanted to go back to a pagan world, beautiful, naturalistic, where natural hierarchies based on the supremacy of the strong would be established, because strong equaled good, powerful equaled civilized. The world did have a kind of God, the merciless God of nature, the brutal God of races, the oppressive God of hierarchies." In other words, definitely non-Christian.

Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch."

As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

But in contrast to these quotes, some of Hitler's speeches definitely seem to put him in the Christian camp as a fighter against atheism. For example, he said, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat, April 26, 1933: "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ."

An Associated Press article from the Lansing State Journal, February 23, 1933, is headlined, "Hitler Aims Blow at 'Godless' Move," and talks about how Hitler was campaigning against atheist communists and wanted support from Catholic Nazis. One line in the article specifically says, "Hitler, himself, is a Catholic." (You can see the entire article at http://www.infidels.org/library/his torical/unknown/hitler.html .) In addition, in 1941, Hitler told General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church. He was baptized a Roman Catholic as an infant and was a communicant and altar boy in his youth.

In a speech at Koblenz, August 26, 1934, Hitler said: "National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . . For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!"

Related to the above, the "Religion" article in The Oxford Companion to World War II notes that early on in his career, Hitler sponsored something called "practical Christianity," and that "German Christians emerged who claimed to be able to synthesize the best of National Socialism [Nazism] and the best of Christianity. Many Christians seemed to be able to reconcile themselves to at least certain aspects of anti-Semitic legislation. Those who could not . . . often ended up in concentration camps . . . Many anguished Christians serving in the Wehrmacht began to feel a little more comfortable about supporting a war that now included the overthrow of godless communism."

Getting back to quotes, on October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin, Hitler said: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." In 1938, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech.

In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said:

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""

I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did it mean?

It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.

Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: "For his part, Hitler naturally wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to. His principal aim was to unify the German Evangelical Church under a pro-Nazi banner, and to come to an accommodation with the Catholics."

In other words, while he was certainly evil, he also usually knew which wars he could win (at least until 1941) and only fought those. He knew he could beat the Polish, French, and British armies and he allegedly counseled the Japanese against attacking the U.S.; he also requested that they open up a front against Russia. He couldn't beat the church in open warfare--so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to put them at ease. Think about it--how many other times did Hitler break his word or ignore a treaty? He said whatever would make things easiest, and then ignored it later.

Author Doug Krueger notes that "so many Germans were religious believers that Hitler, if not religious himself, at least had to pretend to be a believer in order to gain support." He adds, "If the [Christian] message won converts, it would seem that most Nazis were probably [Christians] too. After all, would appeal to divine mandate win more theists or atheists to the cause?" He also points out that "Even if Hitler was not a [Christian], he could still have been a theist. Or a deist" (www.infidels.org/library /modern/doug_krueger/copin.html). Remember that being a non-Christian is not equal to being an atheist.

When all is said and done, Krueger says that anecdotal evidence from those close to him near the end of his life suggests that he was a at least a deist, if not a theist. Krueger concludes: "So here's what evidence we have. There is a certain worldview, Nazism. Its leader, Hitler, professes on many occasions to be religious, and he often states that he's doing the will of god. The majority of his followers are openly religious. There is no evidence anywhere that this leader ever professed to anyone that he is an atheist. He and his followers actively campaign against atheism, even to the point of physical force, and this leader allies himself with religious organizations and churches. This is the evidence. So where does atheism fit in?" As Krueger notes, there seems to be no real evidence that Hitler was an atheist. On the other hand, since one could never be sure when he was speaking his real thoughts and when he was simply riling up the masses, it's difficult to say for certain.

An interesting side note: Two of my sources, both of whom are well-versed in WWII history, said something to the effect that Hitler acted as if he had a messianic complex and perhaps believed himself to essentially be a god or the messiah. As one put it, you could certainly make the argument that he was a firm believer in God, if by "God" you mean "Adolf Hitler."

As for your chat-room experiences, well, my friend and source David Gehrig noted that Hitler still sets the gold standard for "easiest rhetorical cheap shot." He related a comment from Usenet that there is an empirical law: As a Usenet discussion gets longer, the probability that someone in it will compare someone else in it to Hitler asymptotically approaches 1. In other words, atheists looking for a quick cheap-shot may claim Hitler was a Christian; similarly, Christians looking for a quick shot may claim he was an atheist. Know what? Hitler was a vegetarian! Oooh, those evil vegetarians! He also recommended that parents give their children milk to drink instead of beer and started the first anti-smoking campaign. (So by the "reasoning" used in these types of arguments, if you are truly anti-Hitler, you should smoke heavily and only give your baby beer!) Better watch out, though he was an oxygen-breather, too! In other words, does it really matter whether Hitler was an atheist or a Christian or whatever? Just because somebody may hold a particular worldview (along with other views) doesn't make him a spokesman for that view, or even remotely representative of others who hold that view. No matter how his madness is painted, he was still evil incarnate.

I have one more quote to share on this topic. This, again, from David Gehrig: "Let's save the rhetorical comparisons to Hitler and Nazis for those who really deserve them--hate groups who proudly assume the Nazi mantle, and 'Holocaust revisionists' who would fantasize away Hitler's genocidal crimes."

— David

 

[aris2chat]

This is what religion does to those who have differing beliefs

What god could possibly find this acceptable?

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

No, people professing to be "Christians" may have done such things; however, when Jesus said, " If ANYONE offends a little child, it would be better to hang a millstone around his neck and cast him into the deepest part of the sea" I believe HE meant it. A Christian cannot be a Nazi and a Christian too. He will either love one and hate the other ----but he cannot reasonably love both!

A child, not a fetus or infant. We all want to protect children, but that does not mean we should deny the woman her life or her rights to decide. Bible does not take away the right of a woman to choose birth control or abortion.

All faith claim their morals are the only or better ones. We have to use reason, not faith to live our lives. We have free will and the ability to choose for a reason. We do not have a right to impose our choices on others.

Guess what, nazis were for the most part christians. Hitler want to be a Jesuit monk but was denied. Christians imprisoning and killing other christians, as well as those who were not christians. Hitler used the symbols of the christian faith to advance his vision.

Men that attended church had no qualms about killing children in war. They still do.

From Constantine to the crusades to today, we still have those of faith that kill in the name of god.

If you are going to condemn ALL Christians by what some professing to behave done, you will have far more problem defending atheism. Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Castro have done terrible things against people whose ONLY "crime" was their faith (if that could indeed be considered a crime by any right thinking individual). As for Hitler and the Nazis, he and they were like chameleons. It's now widely known that Hitler intended to eventual ban all religion and place himself as head over the nationalized religion. He eventually nationalized all education and closed religious schools wherever he gained control.

Logic should be the motivation of action not some blind believe in some invisible director.

We should care about others not just some faith or ideology.

We should use our heads, not some book

 

[LittleNipper]

This is what SOME religions do to those with different beliefs. Christians don't do it and most other religions don't do it. Hell, Buddhists believe it's wrong to kill an insect. So, which particular religions do you feel kill those with different beliefs. I really would like to know. PS: I'm talking about modern times.

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

No, people professing to be "Christians" may have done such things; however, when Jesus said, " If ANYONE offends a little child, it would be better to hang a millstone around his neck and cast him into the deepest part of the sea" I believe HE meant it. A Christian cannot be a Nazi and a Christian too. He will either love one and hate the other ----but he cannot reasonably love both!

A child, not a fetus or infant. We all want to protect children, but that does not mean we should deny the woman her life or her rights to decide. Bible does not take away the right of a woman to choose birth control or abortion.

All faith claim their morals are the only or better ones. We have to use reason, not faith to live our lives. We have free will and the ability to choose for a reason. We do not have a right to impose our choices on others.

Guess what, nazis were for the most part christians. Hitler want to be a Jesuit monk but was denied. Christians imprisoning and killing other christians, as well as those who were not christians. Hitler used the symbols of the christian faith to advance his vision.

Men that attended church had no qualms about killing children in war. They still do.

From Constantine to the crusades to today, we still have those of faith that kill in the name of god.

If you are going to condemn ALL Christians by what some professing to behave done, you will have far more problem defending atheism. Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Castro have done terrible things against people whose ONLY "crime" was their faith (if that could indeed be considered a crime by any right thinking individual). As for Hitler and the Nazis, he and they were like chameleons. It's now widely known that Hitler intended to eventual ban all religion and place himself as head over the nationalized religion. He eventually nationalized all education and closed religious schools wherever he gained control.

Logic should be the motivation of action not some blind believe in some invisible director.

We should care about others not just some faith or ideology.

We should use our heads, not some book

I know that Jesus is my Savior. I'm not a book. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Word and not throw it away. He spoke of Noah and Abraham and David like He knew them. He comforts me. That comfort is real, it isn't just my imagination. Blind belief witnesses no changed lives, no miracles, no impossible events, no happy endings. Sorry, but such are part of the reality of many Christian believers' lives.

I'm sorry your life is so empty...

 

[aris2chat]

Christians used to do this. Christians still kill and abuse those of other faiths. Christians still go to war. Christians still pit themselves against other sects and religions.
Christians might have changed their methods but the reasons behind this type of act is still there.
Christians still are at war against those who are different or hold differing beliefs. Religion is still used as a justification to kill or hate others.

No, people professing to be "Christians" may have done such things; however, when Jesus said, " If ANYONE offends a little child, it would be better to hang a millstone around his neck and cast him into the deepest part of the sea" I believe HE meant it. A Christian cannot be a Nazi and a Christian too. He will either love one and hate the other ----but he cannot reasonably love both!

A child, not a fetus or infant. We all want to protect children, but that does not mean we should deny the woman her life or her rights to decide. Bible does not take away the right of a woman to choose birth control or abortion.

All faith claim their morals are the only or better ones. We have to use reason, not faith to live our lives. We have free will and the ability to choose for a reason. We do not have a right to impose our choices on others.

Guess what, nazis were for the most part christians. Hitler want to be a Jesuit monk but was denied. Christians imprisoning and killing other christians, as well as those who were not christians. Hitler used the symbols of the christian faith to advance his vision.

Men that attended church had no qualms about killing children in war. They still do.

From Constantine to the crusades to today, we still have those of faith that kill in the name of god.

If you are going to condemn ALL Christians by what some professing to behave done, you will have far more problem defending atheism. Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Castro have done terrible things against people whose ONLY "crime" was their faith (if that could indeed be considered a crime by any right thinking individual). As for Hitler and the Nazis, he and they were like chameleons. It's now widely known that Hitler intended to eventual ban all religion and place himself as head over the nationalized religion. He eventually nationalized all education and closed religious schools wherever he gained control.

Logic should be the motivation of action not some blind believe in some invisible director.

We should care about others not just some faith or ideology.

We should use our heads, not some book

I know that Jesus is my Savior. I'm not a book. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Word and not throw it away. He spoke of Noah and Abraham and David like He knew them. He comforts me. That comfort is real, it isn't just my imagination. Blind belief witnesses no changed lives, no miracles, no impossible events, no happy endings. Sorry, but such are part of the reality of many Christian believers' lives.

I'm sorry your life is so empty...

My life has been any except empty. I've seen life around the globe and I find religion being used to teach hate far more than love. We are all just people, with or without faith. What religion if any should not be a reason to treat others differently.
I've seen too many killed in the name of some religion and I find it despicable. I've seen religion throughout history destroying too many lives. They profess to bring love but there is so much hate being taught. Too much tragedy has come from faith.

If people want to believe, let them do so to themselves. When they impose their faith on others it leads to conflict, even between sects of the same faith.

Keep you faith out of my personal space. I don't want to hear it. I grew up around faith. I studies religions. I've experienced what happens when people of faith think they know god's will. I don't believe a god can want that of any of us. Waving a book saying "god said" is a load of nonsense. Men wrote the books, men say........ When god speaks it will be to all mankind in every language at the same time and no one will be in doubt.

Till it can be proven otherwise, I will hold to my own beliefs. When I find someone of faith that is truly loving of all people, I will shake their hand, but I won't believe they speak for god or know god's mind.

 

[zaangalewa]

That is what happens to christians

Any religion could be the victims or the perpetrators. This is what religion does, has done since the beginning of religion. This is what happens in the name of god.

Different religions have different belief systems. This is one example of one religion against another religion. How is this reflecting a universal truth about a belief in god?

Religion has always pitted some other group for death or destruction. Religion has been at war with those of other beliefs since the dawn of history. It still is.

Instead of accepting others the world is us vs them. Till we let go of religion and just people others as just people we will continue to be at war. No one faith has a right to declare the other heretics or try to wipe them out, not muslims, christians, or any other group. Faith should
be a private matter not one for public manipulation.

aris2chat: I'm sure the murderers form the terrororganisation "IS" are heretics of all serios religions of the world I know - including the Islam. They deny god with their deeds. They should concentrate themselve to find the way back to god.

God gave his word to the Hebrews. Priests and princes have been trying to erase that word ever since.

What means this? That I understand the word of god better than you because my ancestors came from David? Nice idea - but I deny such a form of responsibility. The whole creation is the word of god. No one is able to set his foot on a place where god is not and everyone who is here in this universe got an entrance card. No one and nothing is unimportant here.

God sent Moses to bring the Hebrews out of Egypt. The congregation left Egypt and eventually crossed the Jordan. You are a member of the congregation.

The people who left Egyt escaped from the luxury slavery of death and were searching the freedom of a good life by trying to follow the will of god. 40 years they were on their way. Sure this is a very inspiring tradition. But if you should think I am a Jew then you are highly probable wrong. I am a Catholic. The problem is maybe that lots of people are confused on their 40 years way and it's easy to lose the right direction. I would say the right direction is: be always in love and try always to find out what's really going on. And everyone has by the way a lot of roots. All roots are important. To deny the own roots or even to try to burn roots - like some terrororganisations try to do - is always more than only wrong.

 

[RandomVariable]

Different religions have different belief systems. This is one example of one religion against another religion. How is this reflecting a universal truth about a belief in god?

Religion has always pitted some other group for death or destruction. Religion has been at war with those of other beliefs since the dawn of history. It still is.

Instead of accepting others the world is us vs them. Till we let go of religion and just people others as just people we will continue to be at war. No one faith has a right to declare the other heretics or try to wipe them out, not muslims, christians, or any other group. Faith should
be a private matter not one for public manipulation.

aris2chat: I'm sure the murderers form the terrororganisation "IS" are heretics of all serios religions of the world I know - including the Islam. They deny god with their deeds. They should concentrate themselve to find the way back to god.

God gave his word to the Hebrews. Priests and princes have been trying to erase that word ever since.

What means this? That I understand the word of god better than you because my ancestors came from David? Nice idea - but I deny such a form of responsibility. The whole creation is the word of god. No one is able to set his foot on a place where god is not and everyone who is here in this universe got an entrance card. No one and nothing is unimportant here.

God sent Moses to bring the Hebrews out of Egypt. The congregation left Egypt and eventually crossed the Jordan. You are a member of the congregation.

The people who left Egyt escaped from the luxury slavery of death and were searching the freedom of a good life by trying to follow the will of god. 40 years they were on their way. Sure this is a very inspiring tradition. But if you should think I am a Jew then you are highly probable wrong. I am a Catholic. The problem is maybe that lots of people are confused on their 40 years way and it's easy to lose the right direction. I would say the right direction is: be always in love and try always to find out what's really going on. And everyone has by the way a lot of roots. All roots are important. To deny the own roots or even to try to burn roots - like some terrororganisations try to do - is always more than only wrong.

I said God gave his word to the Hebrews and you replied that you denied that responsibility. Now you say you are a Catholic. So you are not a member of the congregation. Why did you speak up and deny responsibility of what you do not have?

 

[RandomVariable]

Different religions have different belief systems. This is one example of one religion against another religion. How is this reflecting a universal truth about a belief in god?

Religion has always pitted some other group for death or destruction. Religion has been at war with those of other beliefs since the dawn of history. It still is.

Instead of accepting others the world is us vs them. Till we let go of religion and just people others as just people we will continue to be at war. No one faith has a right to declare the other heretics or try to wipe them out, not muslims, christians, or any other group. Faith should
be a private matter not one for public manipulation.

aris2chat: I'm sure the murderers form the terrororganisation "IS" are heretics of all serios religions of the world I know - including the Islam. They deny god with their deeds. They should concentrate themselve to find the way back to god.

God gave his word to the Hebrews. Priests and princes have been trying to erase that word ever since.

What means this? That I understand the word of god better than you because my ancestors came from David? Nice idea - but I deny such a form of responsibility. The whole creation is the word of god. No one is able to set his foot on a place where god is not and everyone who is here in this universe got an entrance card. No one and nothing is unimportant here.

God sent Moses to bring the Hebrews out of Egypt. The congregation left Egypt and eventually crossed the Jordan. You are a member of the congregation.

The people who left Egyt escaped from the luxury slavery of death and were searching the freedom of a good life by trying to follow the will of god. 40 years they were on their way. Sure this is a very inspiring tradition. But if you should think I am a Jew then you are highly probable wrong. I am a Catholic. The problem is maybe that lots of people are confused on their 40 years way and it's easy to lose the right direction. I would say the right direction is: be always in love and try always to find out what's really going on. And everyone has by the way a lot of roots. All roots are important. To deny the own roots or even to try to burn roots - like some terrororganisations try to do - is always more than only wrong.

And why do you include a video with every post?

 

[zaangalewa]

Religion has always pitted some other group for death or destruction. Religion has been at war with those of other beliefs since the dawn of history. It still is.

Instead of accepting others the world is us vs them. Till we let go of religion and just people others as just people we will continue to be at war. No one faith has a right to declare the other heretics or try to wipe them out, not muslims, christians, or any other group. Faith should
be a private matter not one for public manipulation.

aris2chat: I'm sure the murderers form the terrororganisation "IS" are heretics of all serios religions of the world I know - including the Islam. They deny god with their deeds. They should concentrate themselve to find the way back to god.

God gave his word to the Hebrews. Priests and princes have been trying to erase that word ever since.

What means this? That I understand the word of god better than you because my ancestors came from David? Nice idea - but I deny such a form of responsibility. The whole creation is the word of god. No one is able to set his foot on a place where god is not and everyone who is here in this universe got an entrance card. No one and nothing is unimportant here.

God sent Moses to bring the Hebrews out of Egypt. The congregation left Egypt and eventually crossed the Jordan. You are a member of the congregation.

The people who left Egyt escaped from the luxury slavery of death and were searching the freedom of a good life by trying to follow the will of god. 40 years they were on their way. Sure this is a very inspiring tradition. But if you should think I am a Jew then you are highly probable wrong. I am a Catholic. The problem is maybe that lots of people are confused on their 40 years way and it's easy to lose the right direction. I would say the right direction is: be always in love and try always to find out what's really going on. And everyone has by the way a lot of roots. All roots are important. To deny the own roots or even to try to burn roots - like some terrororganisations try to do - is always more than only wrong.

I said God gave his word to the Hebrews and you replied that you denied that responsibility. Now you say you are a Catholic. So you are not a member of the congregation. Why did you speak up and deny responsibility of what you do not have?

?

 

[zaangalewa]

Religion has always pitted some other group for death or destruction. Religion has been at war with those of other beliefs since the dawn of history. It still is.

Instead of accepting others the world is us vs them. Till we let go of religion and just people others as just people we will continue to be at war. No one faith has a right to declare the other heretics or try to wipe them out, not muslims, christians, or any other group. Faith should
be a private matter not one for public manipulation.

aris2chat: I'm sure the murderers form the terrororganisation "IS" are heretics of all serios religions of the world I know - including the Islam. They deny god with their deeds. They should concentrate themselve to find the way back to god.

God gave his word to the Hebrews. Priests and princes have been trying to erase that word ever since.

What means this? That I understand the word of god better than you because my ancestors came from David? Nice idea - but I deny such a form of responsibility. The whole creation is the word of god. No one is able to set his foot on a place where god is not and everyone who is here in this universe got an entrance card. No one and nothing is unimportant here.

God sent Moses to bring the Hebrews out of Egypt. The congregation left Egypt and eventually crossed the Jordan. You are a member of the congregation.

The people who left Egyt escaped from the luxury slavery of death and were searching the freedom of a good life by trying to follow the will of god. 40 years they were on their way. Sure this is a very inspiring tradition. But if you should think I am a Jew then you are highly probable wrong. I am a Catholic. The problem is maybe that lots of people are confused on their 40 years way and it's easy to lose the right direction. I would say the right direction is: be always in love and try always to find out what's really going on. And everyone has by the way a lot of roots. All roots are important. To deny the own roots or even to try to burn roots - like some terrororganisations try to do - is always more than only wrong.

And why do you include a video with every post?

Counterquestion: Why not?

 

[zaangalewa]

Was Hitler a Christian?
October 30, 1999
Dear Straight Dope:

In my numerous online debates in various chatrooms, I have learned the following: many Christians seem to think that Adolf Hitler was an atheist (or at least wasn't "Christian"). Of course I and my fellow atheists know better, as Hitler mentions his devotion to Christianity numerous times in his writings. Can you clear this up for me? Was Hitler an "honest to God" Christian, or was he simply using religion as a means of control?

— Carl Stieger

The short answer is a definite "maybe" or, more precisely, "probably neither." The looooong answer is somewhat more complicated.

You are right that Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")! See photo, below.

First, let's look at what he said that seems to put him on the anti-Christian side:

According to a press release from Catholic League President, William A. Donohue (2/4/99): "Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'" The Catholic League also quoted Hitler, in a 4/23/99 Op-Ed ad in the New York Times, as saying, "Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn't know Christianity and syphilis." Ouch!

Unfortunately, the press release had no citations attached and the Catholic League did not include any reference to it in the package they sent when I asked about them. The syphilis quote is cited as having come from Hitler's Third Reich: A Documentary History, by Louis Snyder, but they are quoting Patrick Buchanan quoting this book. In other words, they may not have actually checked the source themselves (if they did, why mention Buchanan?). This makes me a bit worried about the validity of both of these (I have not been able to find the book to check on my own). While this doesn't necessarily make them untrue, we have to recognize that there are a lot of bogus Hitler quotes floating around, some allegedly coming directly from Mein Kampf, for example. The problem is that people who have actually read Mein Kampf find that they aren't in there anywhere! I'm not saying these quotes fall into that category, but just a note to be wary of lots of the unsourced "quotes" that are around. (I did my best to check out the various Mein Kampf quotes that I use here, including referencing a friend who actually plowed through the whole thing.)

That said, we can move on to some other relevant info. Jehuda Bauer, Professor of Holocaust Studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, describes the real "god" of Hitler and the Nazis in his article, "The Trauma of the Holocaust: Some Historical Perspectives," by saying: ""They wanted to go back to a pagan world, beautiful, naturalistic, where natural hierarchies based on the supremacy of the strong would be established, because strong equaled good, powerful equaled civilized. The world did have a kind of God, the merciless God of nature, the brutal God of races, the oppressive God of hierarchies." In other words, definitely non-Christian.

Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch."

As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

But in contrast to these quotes, some of Hitler's speeches definitely seem to put him in the Christian camp as a fighter against atheism. For example, he said, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat, April 26, 1933: "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ."

An Associated Press article from the Lansing State Journal, February 23, 1933, is headlined, "Hitler Aims Blow at 'Godless' Move," and talks about how Hitler was campaigning against atheist communists and wanted support from Catholic Nazis. One line in the article specifically says, "Hitler, himself, is a Catholic." (You can see the entire article at http://www.infidels.org/library/his torical/unknown/hitler.html .) In addition, in 1941, Hitler told General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church. He was baptized a Roman Catholic as an infant and was a communicant and altar boy in his youth.

In a speech at Koblenz, August 26, 1934, Hitler said: "National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . . For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!"

Related to the above, the "Religion" article in The Oxford Companion to World War II notes that early on in his career, Hitler sponsored something called "practical Christianity," and that "German Christians emerged who claimed to be able to synthesize the best of National Socialism [Nazism] and the best of Christianity. Many Christians seemed to be able to reconcile themselves to at least certain aspects of anti-Semitic legislation. Those who could not . . . often ended up in concentration camps . . . Many anguished Christians serving in the Wehrmacht began to feel a little more comfortable about supporting a war that now included the overthrow of godless communism."

Getting back to quotes, on October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin, Hitler said: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." In 1938, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech.

In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said:

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""

I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did it mean?

It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.

Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: "For his part, Hitler naturally wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to. His principal aim was to unify the German Evangelical Church under a pro-Nazi banner, and to come to an accommodation with the Catholics."

In other words, while he was certainly evil, he also usually knew which wars he could win (at least until 1941) and only fought those. He knew he could beat the Polish, French, and British armies and he allegedly counseled the Japanese against attacking the U.S.; he also requested that they open up a front against Russia. He couldn't beat the church in open warfare--so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to put them at ease. Think about it--how many other times did Hitler break his word or ignore a treaty? He said whatever would make things easiest, and then ignored it later.

Author Doug Krueger notes that "so many Germans were religious believers that Hitler, if not religious himself, at least had to pretend to be a believer in order to gain support." He adds, "If the [Christian] message won converts, it would seem that most Nazis were probably [Christians] too. After all, would appeal to divine mandate win more theists or atheists to the cause?" He also points out that "Even if Hitler was not a [Christian], he could still have been a theist. Or a deist" (www.infidels.org/library /modern/doug_krueger/copin.html). Remember that being a non-Christian is not equal to being an atheist.

When all is said and done, Krueger says that anecdotal evidence from those close to him near the end of his life suggests that he was a at least a deist, if not a theist. Krueger concludes: "So here's what evidence we have. There is a certain worldview, Nazism. Its leader, Hitler, professes on many occasions to be religious, and he often states that he's doing the will of god. The majority of his followers are openly religious. There is no evidence anywhere that this leader ever professed to anyone that he is an atheist. He and his followers actively campaign against atheism, even to the point of physical force, and this leader allies himself with religious organizations and churches. This is the evidence. So where does atheism fit in?" As Krueger notes, there seems to be no real evidence that Hitler was an atheist. On the other hand, since one could never be sure when he was speaking his real thoughts and when he was simply riling up the masses, it's difficult to say for certain.

An interesting side note: Two of my sources, both of whom are well-versed in WWII history, said something to the effect that Hitler acted as if he had a messianic complex and perhaps believed himself to essentially be a god or the messiah. As one put it, you could certainly make the argument that he was a firm believer in God, if by "God" you mean "Adolf Hitler."

As for your chat-room experiences, well, my friend and source David Gehrig noted that Hitler still sets the gold standard for "easiest rhetorical cheap shot." He related a comment from Usenet that there is an empirical law: As a Usenet discussion gets longer, the probability that someone in it will compare someone else in it to Hitler asymptotically approaches 1. In other words, atheists looking for a quick cheap-shot may claim Hitler was a Christian; similarly, Christians looking for a quick shot may claim he was an atheist. Know what? Hitler was a vegetarian! Oooh, those evil vegetarians! He also recommended that parents give their children milk to drink instead of beer and started the first anti-smoking campaign. (So by the "reasoning" used in these types of arguments, if you are truly anti-Hitler, you should smoke heavily and only give your baby beer!) Better watch out, though he was an oxygen-breather, too! In other words, does it really matter whether Hitler was an atheist or a Christian or whatever? Just because somebody may hold a particular worldview (along with other views) doesn't make him a spokesman for that view, or even remotely representative of others who hold that view. No matter how his madness is painted, he was still evil incarnate.

I have one more quote to share on this topic. This, again, from David Gehrig: "Let's save the rhetorical comparisons to Hitler and Nazis for those who really deserve them--hate groups who proudly assume the Nazi mantle, and 'Holocaust revisionists' who would fantasize away Hitler's genocidal crimes."

— David

In 1931 Pater Ingbert Naab wrote a book with exactly this title: "Ist Hitler ein Christ?" (="Is Hitler a Christian?"). The last sentences of this book were "Ist Hitler ein Christ? Leider muss unsere Antwort lauten: Nein!" ("Is Hitler a Christian? Unfortunatelly our answer has to be: No!"). So it was not impossible to know that Hitler was not a Christian even in 1931.

 

[LittleNipper]

No, people professing to be "Christians" may have done such things; however, when Jesus said, " If ANYONE offends a little child, it would be better to hang a millstone around his neck and cast him into the deepest part of the sea" I believe HE meant it. A Christian cannot be a Nazi and a Christian too. He will either love one and hate the other ----but he cannot reasonably love both!

A child, not a fetus or infant. We all want to protect children, but that does not mean we should deny the woman her life or her rights to decide. Bible does not take away the right of a woman to choose birth control or abortion.

All faith claim their morals are the only or better ones. We have to use reason, not faith to live our lives. We have free will and the ability to choose for a reason. We do not have a right to impose our choices on others.

Guess what, nazis were for the most part christians. Hitler want to be a Jesuit monk but was denied. Christians imprisoning and killing other christians, as well as those who were not christians. Hitler used the symbols of the christian faith to advance his vision.

Men that attended church had no qualms about killing children in war. They still do.

From Constantine to the crusades to today, we still have those of faith that kill in the name of god.

If you are going to condemn ALL Christians by what some professing to behave done, you will have far more problem defending atheism. Stalin, Lenin, Mao and Castro have done terrible things against people whose ONLY "crime" was their faith (if that could indeed be considered a crime by any right thinking individual). As for Hitler and the Nazis, he and they were like chameleons. It's now widely known that Hitler intended to eventual ban all religion and place himself as head over the nationalized religion. He eventually nationalized all education and closed religious schools wherever he gained control.

Logic should be the motivation of action not some blind believe in some invisible director.

We should care about others not just some faith or ideology.

We should use our heads, not some book

I know that Jesus is my Savior. I'm not a book. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Word and not throw it away. He spoke of Noah and Abraham and David like He knew them. He comforts me. That comfort is real, it isn't just my imagination. Blind belief witnesses no changed lives, no miracles, no impossible events, no happy endings. Sorry, but such are part of the reality of many Christian believers' lives.

I'm sorry your life is so empty...

My life has been any except empty. I've seen life around the globe and I find religion being used to teach hate far more than love. We are all just people, with or without faith. What religion if any should not be a reason to treat others differently.
I've seen too many killed in the name of some religion and I find it despicable. I've seen religion throughout history destroying too many lives. They profess to bring love but there is so much hate being taught. Too much tragedy has come from faith.

If people want to believe, let them do so to themselves. When they impose their faith on others it leads to conflict, even between sects of the same faith.

Keep you faith out of my personal space. I don't want to hear it. I grew up around faith. I studies religions. I've experienced what happens when people of faith think they know god's will. I don't believe a god can want that of any of us. Waving a book saying "god said" is a load of nonsense. Men wrote the books, men say........ When god speaks it will be to all mankind in every language at the same time and no one will be in doubt.

Till it can be proven otherwise, I will hold to my own beliefs. When I find someone of faith that is truly loving of all people, I will shake their hand, but I won't believe they speak for god or know god's mind.

I've seen more people killed by those that think they are god or believe that they can get away with anything because there is no God to take note of their atrocities .