"You Didn‘t Build That"

So? So does Rachel Maddow. So does Ed Schultz, So does Lawrence O'Donnell. So does Chris Matthews. So does Andrea Mitchell. So does Martin Bashir. So does Al Sharpton. Shall I go on? Is there a point in there that you want to make?

Who are those people? Are they on TV?

Yeh they are on the All Obama all the time network MSNBC...
or as some call them MSLSD...

MSLSD is my favorite term for them but truth be told, I stole it from Mark Levin. :lol:

DISCLAIMER: You lefties can ignore what I just said since you wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on your fat, lazy asses. :D

:eusa_whistle:
 
Built their businesses without any help? Oh....you mean they personally built the roads that either get their product out or their customers in? They built the power grid that powers their business? They built the Internet that is so valuable to modern business? Water and sewage? How about trash removal? I guess they built that too....all on their own. All of those things that I mentioned HELPS businesses.....immeasurably.

And everyone has equal access to those. Think about it like a math equation: you've got your constants and your variables. Constants for everyone in America: public infrastructure. The variables in this equation are what leads to individual success: things like intelligence, determination, work ethic and just plain luck.

Equal access? yes. Equal benefit? hell no.

Anyway....You basically said the same thing that Obama said in that speech. Those "constants" that you speak of? They work for us all.....I agree. I also agree that Business people are all of the things you mentioned...But business people have something else besides those things you mentioned.

There are lots of intelligent people out there. You don't think it takes intelligence to do what I do for instance? I work with adults who are severely developmentally disabled...the group of people that I work with are not only very limited, intellectually speaking, but also have varying degrees of mental illness and volatile behavioral problems. You have to think on your feet continually to keep them, their peers and lastly yourself safe. You also have to be a teacher to help them learn new skills....again, without getting them frustrated and avoiding outbursts....and I'm a direct care staff...an aide. I'm not rich...but it's my calling. I've been doing it for 23 years, and I'm good at what I do. Intelligence alone isn't it.

Hard working/work ethic...There are blue collar workers that bust their asses everyday, rarely take a day off and never complain....Work ethic alone isn't it.

Determination? How about the Blue collar worker I mentioned above? It takes a hell of a lot of determination not to give up...making measly wages, busting their asses and not once do they give up and go onto the welfare system...there are tens of millions of people like that.

Luck? I'll give you that one.

But no, even if you combine all of those attributes...you don't necessarily come up with a successful business person. They have a calling for it....they know how to do it. Some go to school to learn it, but many businessmen aren't all that intelligent...yes, they work hard and most of them are pretty stubborn people....but the most common trait, IMO, is that they are drawn to money....That's not necessarily a bad thing...but left unchecked(which is what we pretty much have now) nothing is ever enough....it goes from self interest to greed, from greed to ruthlessness, from ruthlessness to aristocracy from aristocracy to tyranny.

Government isn't the only entity to worry about when it comes to tyranny and oppression. I think balance is the key and we've lost it....

I hear you and applaud the thoughtfulness of your post. I don't want to see the game rigged for anyone, rich nor poor, nor working middle class, whatever. As an aside, i think it's disingenuous when Obama refers to the middle or lower middle class as "working people" or whatever, as if rich people don't or haven't worked.
 
Who are those people? Are they on TV?

Yeh they are on the All Obama all the time network MSNBC...
or as some call them MSLSD...

MSLSD is my favorite term for them but truth be told, I stole it from Mark Levin. :lol:

DISCLAIMER: You lefties can ignore what I just said since you wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on your fat, lazy asses. :D

:eusa_whistle:



MSLSD is my favorite term for them but truth be told, I stole it from Mark Levin.



Same here...That's where I got it from... heh heh
 
Yeh they are on the All Obama all the time network MSNBC...
or as some call them MSLSD...

MSLSD is my favorite term for them but truth be told, I stole it from Mark Levin. :lol:

DISCLAIMER: You lefties can ignore what I just said since you wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on your fat, lazy asses. :D

:eusa_whistle:



MSLSD is my favorite term for them but truth be told, I stole it from Mark Levin.



Same here...That's where I got it from... heh heh


I'm listening to him right now.
 
"You Didn‘t Build That"
 

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Built their businesses without any help? Oh....you mean they personally built the roads that either get their product out or their customers in? They built the power grid that powers their business? They built the Internet that is so valuable to modern business? Water and sewage? How about trash removal? I guess they built that too....all on their own. All of those things that I mentioned HELPS businesses.....immeasurably.

And everyone has equal access to those. Think about it like a math equation: you've got your constants and your variables. Constants for everyone in America: public infrastructure. The variables in this equation are what leads to individual success: things like intelligence, determination, work ethic and just plain luck.

Equal access? yes. Equal benefit? hell no.

Anyway....You basically said the same thing that Obama said in that speech. Those "constants" that you speak of? They work for us all.....I agree. I also agree that Business people are all of the things you mentioned...But business people have something else besides those things you mentioned.

There are lots of intelligent people out there. You don't think it takes intelligence to do what I do for instance? I work with adults who are severely developmentally disabled...the group of people that I work with are not only very limited, intellectually speaking, but also have varying degrees of mental illness and volatile behavioral problems. You have to think on your feet continually to keep them, their peers and lastly yourself safe. You also have to be a teacher to help them learn new skills....again, without getting them frustrated and avoiding outbursts....and I'm a direct care staff...an aide. I'm not rich...but it's my calling. I've been doing it for 23 years, and I'm good at what I do. Intelligence alone isn't it.

Hard working/work ethic...There are blue collar workers that bust their asses everyday, rarely take a day off and never complain....Work ethic alone isn't it.

Determination? How about the Blue collar worker I mentioned above? It takes a hell of a lot of determination not to give up...making measly wages, busting their asses and not once do they give up and go onto the welfare system...there are tens of millions of people like that.

Luck? I'll give you that one.

But no, even if you combine all of those attributes...you don't necessarily come up with a successful business person. They have a calling for it....they know how to do it. Some go to school to learn it, but many businessmen aren't all that intelligent...yes, they work hard and most of them are pretty stubborn people....but the most common trait, IMO, is that they are drawn to money....That's not necessarily a bad thing...but left unchecked(which is what we pretty much have now) nothing is ever enough....it goes from self interest to greed, from greed to ruthlessness, from ruthlessness to aristocracy from aristocracy to tyranny.

Government isn't the only entity to worry about when it comes to tyranny and oppression. I think balance is the key and we've lost it....

I happen to really like the way SomeGuy put it into Constants and Variables. And you seem fixated on your heroes comments about "a lot folks are smart" and "a lot of folks work hard".. And you have a hard job for sure. But have you ever considered MULTIPLYING your acheivements dealing with the handicapped?

Just working hard and being smart ARE NOT the only traits that get rewarded. INNOVATION and SAVING folks time and money are multipliers. Let's say you've put in 20 yrs in adult remedial education... And you have an INNATE DESIRE to reach more folks needy of your skills and knowledge. So you decide to package up your accumulated tools and tips and curricula and want to distribute it.. You are now SERVING 100 times the clientele. And you get rewarded. IF -- you take risks, believe in your product and have a genuine desire to serve a bigger segment. You might have to re-mortgage your house. You might need to raise capital. You might need to protect your intellectual property. The demands are increased, your RISK is increased and the reward is not even guaranteed.

THIS --- is the diff between sweating justly and profusely and a "business man".

Business people who are drawn "by the money" and not the IDEA are destined to almost certain failure. Sweat equity is limited in it's rewards -- IDEAS and IMPLEMENTATIONS are open to negotiation..

The prez didn't need to stipulate that "You didn't build that".. He was already in trouble when he denigrated hard work and smartness as being common quantities applied equally. Because he demonstrated how little he really understands about LEVERAGING hard work and smartness into almost unbounded service to others by starting and growing a business.

And for you to sit there and whine about how people only "do that for the money" --- makes you a useful tool for his inate hatred of individual initiative, risk taking, and the free market.

The folks who started drilling for Nat Gas in North Dakota and created the biggest economic boom of the past several decades up there --- they aren't waiting for the govt to build roads and bridges and schools. They are CREATING the reality of jobs and economic growth by MULTIPLYING their sweat equity and the sweat of others in a bigger vision of serving others.. Obama doesn't get why they should be rewarded for their efforts more than him.
 
And everyone has equal access to those. Think about it like a math equation: you've got your constants and your variables. Constants for everyone in America: public infrastructure. The variables in this equation are what leads to individual success: things like intelligence, determination, work ethic and just plain luck.

Equal access? yes. Equal benefit? hell no.

Anyway....You basically said the same thing that Obama said in that speech. Those "constants" that you speak of? They work for us all.....I agree. I also agree that Business people are all of the things you mentioned...But business people have something else besides those things you mentioned.

There are lots of intelligent people out there. You don't think it takes intelligence to do what I do for instance? I work with adults who are severely developmentally disabled...the group of people that I work with are not only very limited, intellectually speaking, but also have varying degrees of mental illness and volatile behavioral problems. You have to think on your feet continually to keep them, their peers and lastly yourself safe. You also have to be a teacher to help them learn new skills....again, without getting them frustrated and avoiding outbursts....and I'm a direct care staff...an aide. I'm not rich...but it's my calling. I've been doing it for 23 years, and I'm good at what I do. Intelligence alone isn't it.

Hard working/work ethic...There are blue collar workers that bust their asses everyday, rarely take a day off and never complain....Work ethic alone isn't it.

Determination? How about the Blue collar worker I mentioned above? It takes a hell of a lot of determination not to give up...making measly wages, busting their asses and not once do they give up and go onto the welfare system...there are tens of millions of people like that.

Luck? I'll give you that one.

But no, even if you combine all of those attributes...you don't necessarily come up with a successful business person. They have a calling for it....they know how to do it. Some go to school to learn it, but many businessmen aren't all that intelligent...yes, they work hard and most of them are pretty stubborn people....but the most common trait, IMO, is that they are drawn to money....That's not necessarily a bad thing...but left unchecked(which is what we pretty much have now) nothing is ever enough....it goes from self interest to greed, from greed to ruthlessness, from ruthlessness to aristocracy from aristocracy to tyranny.

Government isn't the only entity to worry about when it comes to tyranny and oppression. I think balance is the key and we've lost it....

I hear you and applaud the thoughtfulness of your post. I don't want to see the game rigged for anyone, rich nor poor, nor working middle class, whatever. As an aside, i think it's disingenuous when Obama refers to the middle or lower middle class as "working people" or whatever, as if rich people don't or haven't worked.

First of all, thanks.

I really don't think it was meant that way....Every productive person is a "working person".....But there is a difference between "working people" and "working class". Working class people are the employed, not the employers. And my saying that is not to imply that "employers are bad".

Do employers deserve success and wealth? Absolutely. But the employed deserve to be fairly compensated for their labors. When so many fully employed people in this country can barely sustain their families without some kind of government assistance and so many of the employers are raking in profits and personal wealth like never before....that is not a fair compensation.

The thing that bothers me most is that this country is suffering mightily because of it. Like I said, there has to be a balance to it all. If one side controls, or even achieves too much power it hurts the other.

Take labor vs. business. Right now, business holds just about all the cards. Labor is just trying to survive. In the late 70's, with the strength of private sector unions, labor had it good...but the unions had too much power and businesses struggled to survive. Unions back then, with strong arm tactics sealed their own doom. If they would have been more forward thinking and worked WITH business, instead of having an adversarial relationship, it would've been better all around.

Same with Government vs. Business. Government has the responsibility of representing ALL Americans. That isn't happening. They Represent the powerful and wealthy in the way of these breaks that only they can take advantage of, and the very poor in the way of welfare. Those of us stuck in the middle get neither the breaks or the help....Personally? I don't really care that I get neither....I don't really need either(although a less expensive college education would help a lot after putting one through and another currently enrolled).

But what I do care about is the fact that So many people are working full time and not only are they not getting anywhere, they're falling behind. That hurts the country, the economy and it actually hurts business itself in the long term.

I just think that business, like the unions of the 1970's, have too much power and are focused on the quick buck and not the long term....at least not here in America. I am concerned that with all the outsourcing and all the investment abroad, that the long term plan for business is to make American labor as cheap as it is elsewhere.....if that happens, then the standard of living will drop heavily and we WILL become that third world country that some of the people on the right worry about.
 
And everyone has equal access to those. Think about it like a math equation: you've got your constants and your variables. Constants for everyone in America: public infrastructure. The variables in this equation are what leads to individual success: things like intelligence, determination, work ethic and just plain luck.

Equal access? yes. Equal benefit? hell no.

Anyway....You basically said the same thing that Obama said in that speech. Those "constants" that you speak of? They work for us all.....I agree. I also agree that Business people are all of the things you mentioned...But business people have something else besides those things you mentioned.

There are lots of intelligent people out there. You don't think it takes intelligence to do what I do for instance? I work with adults who are severely developmentally disabled...the group of people that I work with are not only very limited, intellectually speaking, but also have varying degrees of mental illness and volatile behavioral problems. You have to think on your feet continually to keep them, their peers and lastly yourself safe. You also have to be a teacher to help them learn new skills....again, without getting them frustrated and avoiding outbursts....and I'm a direct care staff...an aide. I'm not rich...but it's my calling. I've been doing it for 23 years, and I'm good at what I do. Intelligence alone isn't it.

Hard working/work ethic...There are blue collar workers that bust their asses everyday, rarely take a day off and never complain....Work ethic alone isn't it.

Determination? How about the Blue collar worker I mentioned above? It takes a hell of a lot of determination not to give up...making measly wages, busting their asses and not once do they give up and go onto the welfare system...there are tens of millions of people like that.

Luck? I'll give you that one.

But no, even if you combine all of those attributes...you don't necessarily come up with a successful business person. They have a calling for it....they know how to do it. Some go to school to learn it, but many businessmen aren't all that intelligent...yes, they work hard and most of them are pretty stubborn people....but the most common trait, IMO, is that they are drawn to money....That's not necessarily a bad thing...but left unchecked(which is what we pretty much have now) nothing is ever enough....it goes from self interest to greed, from greed to ruthlessness, from ruthlessness to aristocracy from aristocracy to tyranny.

Government isn't the only entity to worry about when it comes to tyranny and oppression. I think balance is the key and we've lost it....

I happen to really like the way SomeGuy put it into Constants and Variables. And you seem fixated on your heroes comments about "a lot folks are smart" and "a lot of folks work hard".. And you have a hard job for sure. But have you ever considered MULTIPLYING your acheivements dealing with the handicapped?

Just working hard and being smart ARE NOT the only traits that get rewarded. INNOVATION and SAVING folks time and money are multipliers. Let's say you've put in 20 yrs in adult remedial education... And you have an INNATE DESIRE to reach more folks needy of your skills and knowledge. So you decide to package up your accumulated tools and tips and curricula and want to distribute it.. You are now SERVING 100 times the clientele. And you get rewarded. IF -- you take risks, believe in your product and have a genuine desire to serve a bigger segment. You might have to re-mortgage your house. You might need to raise capital. You might need to protect your intellectual property. The demands are increased, your RISK is increased and the reward is not even guaranteed.

THIS --- is the diff between sweating justly and profusely and a "business man".

Business people who are drawn "by the money" and not the IDEA are destined to almost certain failure. Sweat equity is limited in it's rewards -- IDEAS and IMPLEMENTATIONS are open to negotiation..

The prez didn't need to stipulate that "You didn't build that".. He was already in trouble when he denigrated hard work and smartness as being common quantities applied equally. Because he demonstrated how little he really understands about LEVERAGING hard work and smartness into almost unbounded service to others by starting and growing a business.

And for you to sit there and whine about how people only "do that for the money" --- makes you a useful tool for his inate hatred of individual initiative, risk taking, and the free market.

The folks who started drilling for Nat Gas in North Dakota and created the biggest economic boom of the past several decades up there --- they aren't waiting for the govt to build roads and bridges and schools. They are CREATING the reality of jobs and economic growth by MULTIPLYING their sweat equity and the sweat of others in a bigger vision of serving others.. Obama doesn't get why they should be rewarded for their efforts more than him.

Going out to dinner with friends....I didn't ignore your post and in fact, I agree with a good chunk of it...BBL.
 
I hear you and applaud the thoughtfulness of your post. I don't want to see the game rigged for anyone, rich nor poor, nor working middle class, whatever. As an aside, i think it's disingenuous when Obama refers to the middle or lower middle class as "working people" or whatever, as if rich people don't or haven't worked.


When a Democrat uses the term "working people," he means union members and no one else. Everyone else is either the "working poor" or "millionaires and billionaires."
 
I hear you and applaud the thoughtfulness of your post. I don't want to see the game rigged for anyone, rich nor poor, nor working middle class, whatever. As an aside, i think it's disingenuous when Obama refers to the middle or lower middle class as "working people" or whatever, as if rich people don't or haven't worked.


When a Democrat uses the term "working people," he means union members and no one else. Everyone else is either the "working poor" or "millionaires and billionaires."

Fuck you douchebag. Stop trying to derail a decent discussion with your bullshit.
 
Let's say everyone has that special something, that magical thing that makes them want to work harder than a Kentucky coal miner and actually start their own business.Ooops! FAIL!! If everyone is a job creator, the NO ONE is a job employee.You can't hire people that all have their own businesses to worry abbout.

Anyway, Romney, Bain, et. al. DID NOT build that by themselves. The fact is that they built it not only on the backs of underpaid workers, but they built it with government money! Yep, about 80% of the "build that" costs were covered by federal and state grants.
 
And everyone has equal access to those. Think about it like a math equation: you've got your constants and your variables. Constants for everyone in America: public infrastructure. The variables in this equation are what leads to individual success: things like intelligence, determination, work ethic and just plain luck.

Equal access? yes. Equal benefit? hell no.

Anyway....You basically said the same thing that Obama said in that speech. Those "constants" that you speak of? They work for us all.....I agree. I also agree that Business people are all of the things you mentioned...But business people have something else besides those things you mentioned.

There are lots of intelligent people out there. You don't think it takes intelligence to do what I do for instance? I work with adults who are severely developmentally disabled...the group of people that I work with are not only very limited, intellectually speaking, but also have varying degrees of mental illness and volatile behavioral problems. You have to think on your feet continually to keep them, their peers and lastly yourself safe. You also have to be a teacher to help them learn new skills....again, without getting them frustrated and avoiding outbursts....and I'm a direct care staff...an aide. I'm not rich...but it's my calling. I've been doing it for 23 years, and I'm good at what I do. Intelligence alone isn't it.

Hard working/work ethic...There are blue collar workers that bust their asses everyday, rarely take a day off and never complain....Work ethic alone isn't it.

Determination? How about the Blue collar worker I mentioned above? It takes a hell of a lot of determination not to give up...making measly wages, busting their asses and not once do they give up and go onto the welfare system...there are tens of millions of people like that.

Luck? I'll give you that one.

But no, even if you combine all of those attributes...you don't necessarily come up with a successful business person. They have a calling for it....they know how to do it. Some go to school to learn it, but many businessmen aren't all that intelligent...yes, they work hard and most of them are pretty stubborn people....but the most common trait, IMO, is that they are drawn to money....That's not necessarily a bad thing...but left unchecked(which is what we pretty much have now) nothing is ever enough....it goes from self interest to greed, from greed to ruthlessness, from ruthlessness to aristocracy from aristocracy to tyranny.

Government isn't the only entity to worry about when it comes to tyranny and oppression. I think balance is the key and we've lost it....

I happen to really like the way SomeGuy put it into Constants and Variables. And you seem fixated on your heroes comments about "a lot folks are smart" and "a lot of folks work hard".. And you have a hard job for sure. But have you ever considered MULTIPLYING your acheivements dealing with the handicapped?

Just working hard and being smart ARE NOT the only traits that get rewarded. INNOVATION and SAVING folks time and money are multipliers. Let's say you've put in 20 yrs in adult remedial education... And you have an INNATE DESIRE to reach more folks needy of your skills and knowledge. So you decide to package up your accumulated tools and tips and curricula and want to distribute it.. You are now SERVING 100 times the clientele. And you get rewarded. IF -- you take risks, believe in your product and have a genuine desire to serve a bigger segment. You might have to re-mortgage your house. You might need to raise capital. You might need to protect your intellectual property. The demands are increased, your RISK is increased and the reward is not even guaranteed.

THIS --- is the diff between sweating justly and profusely and a "business man".

Business people who are drawn "by the money" and not the IDEA are destined to almost certain failure. Sweat equity is limited in it's rewards -- IDEAS and IMPLEMENTATIONS are open to negotiation..

The prez didn't need to stipulate that "You didn't build that".. He was already in trouble when he denigrated hard work and smartness as being common quantities applied equally. Because he demonstrated how little he really understands about LEVERAGING hard work and smartness into almost unbounded service to others by starting and growing a business.

And for you to sit there and whine about how people only "do that for the money" --- makes you a useful tool for his inate hatred of individual initiative, risk taking, and the free market.

The folks who started drilling for Nat Gas in North Dakota and created the biggest economic boom of the past several decades up there --- they aren't waiting for the govt to build roads and bridges and schools. They are CREATING the reality of jobs and economic growth by MULTIPLYING their sweat equity and the sweat of others in a bigger vision of serving others.. Obama doesn't get why they should be rewarded for their efforts more than him.

First off, you vitriol aside....you bring up some good points....but you are mistaken...or just perhaps a little grandiose in your "unbounded service to others" spiel. People don't start businesses with servitude in mind. They build it because they have a good idea or a skill that they can profit off of.

And for you to sit there and worship them like Gods only makes you a useful tool to further the slave labor agenda that seems to be invading this country.like a plague of locusts.

However, the good points you made were these....Risk is inherent in business....I get it....however you make it out to be the equivalent of a guy going to a casino. They develop business plans and have a pretty good idea whether it will work or not using the "sweat equity" to make it work. It's not a roll of the dice.

Obama did not say that hard work and smartness were applied equally. He just stated the truth.....there are a lot of smart people, there are a lot of hard workers.

The problem seems to be that you and your buddy that I told to fuck off is this.

You think that the employer is royalty....you think labor is the serf. I happen to think labor is every bit as important as the employer.....equals? No. Business owners, if they run a solid business, deserve success and all the material rewards involved. However, Labor should share in that success, because they certainly helped make that success happen.....The only thing that I've been talking about is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.....and ol' bripat...and to a lesser degree, you turned it into some kind of bullshit.

Let me ask you a question. What would happen if there was a Nationwide wildcat labor strike?

Perhaps you could explain to me why it's OK for people to work for less than it costs to live here? There are a lot of people that will work their asses off for you, be loyal, faithful employees...but their skills lie in the area of physical labor.....you know, strong backs but weak minds? Why should they be destined for a life of poverty?

Yes...Businessmen should be wealthy, but their employees should, if not comfortable, at least be able to not have to apply for food stamps and Medicaid...they should be able to make it on their own steam....for some(like the people who are strong of back and weak of mind that I spoke of earlier) things will still be tight, and there wouldn't be a lot of money for extras....but they should be able to make it to their next paycheck without relying on government.

What is businesses' role in society? Do they have an obligation to their employees and to the country? If corporations are "people" why are they so unpatriotic to outsource jobs and leave their fellow people to rot? If they don't have those obligations and responsibilities, then IMO the whole premise of Corporations being people is a sham.

BTW.... my focus is not on small businesses.....people who.have 100 employees on down need all the help they can get.
 
Let's say everyone has that special something, that magical thing that makes them want to work harder than a Kentucky coal miner and actually start their own business.Ooops! FAIL!! If everyone is a job creator, the NO ONE is a job employee.You can't hire people that all have their own businesses to worry abbout.

Anyway, Romney, Bain, et. al. DID NOT build that by themselves. The fact is that they built it not only on the backs of underpaid workers, but they built it with government money! Yep, about 80% of the "build that" costs were covered by federal and state grants.

What the Hell Granny?? (Pardon my language... ) Romney Ryan built WHAT with 80%federal/state grants?

And I got news for you... When the computer reached the home desktop and FedEx started to move important pkgs overnight --- MORE PEOPLE became business people.. The trend just might lead to a MAJORITY of folks being self-employed in the not too distant future.. We are not BOUNDED anymore by the only factory job in town anymore. In fact -- you can serve the world from Peoria ---- in your one-piece jammies and no one needs to know..

And Govt? THey can't even get their pants on fast enough in the morning to keep up with it all... ((( See the North Dakota economic boom that's going on -- IN SPITE of no available govt infrastructure)))
 
Equal access? yes. Equal benefit? hell no.

Anyway....You basically said the same thing that Obama said in that speech. Those "constants" that you speak of? They work for us all.....I agree. I also agree that Business people are all of the things you mentioned...But business people have something else besides those things you mentioned.

There are lots of intelligent people out there. You don't think it takes intelligence to do what I do for instance? I work with adults who are severely developmentally disabled...the group of people that I work with are not only very limited, intellectually speaking, but also have varying degrees of mental illness and volatile behavioral problems. You have to think on your feet continually to keep them, their peers and lastly yourself safe. You also have to be a teacher to help them learn new skills....again, without getting them frustrated and avoiding outbursts....and I'm a direct care staff...an aide. I'm not rich...but it's my calling. I've been doing it for 23 years, and I'm good at what I do. Intelligence alone isn't it.

Hard working/work ethic...There are blue collar workers that bust their asses everyday, rarely take a day off and never complain....Work ethic alone isn't it.

Determination? How about the Blue collar worker I mentioned above? It takes a hell of a lot of determination not to give up...making measly wages, busting their asses and not once do they give up and go onto the welfare system...there are tens of millions of people like that.

Luck? I'll give you that one.

But no, even if you combine all of those attributes...you don't necessarily come up with a successful business person. They have a calling for it....they know how to do it. Some go to school to learn it, but many businessmen aren't all that intelligent...yes, they work hard and most of them are pretty stubborn people....but the most common trait, IMO, is that they are drawn to money....That's not necessarily a bad thing...but left unchecked(which is what we pretty much have now) nothing is ever enough....it goes from self interest to greed, from greed to ruthlessness, from ruthlessness to aristocracy from aristocracy to tyranny.

Government isn't the only entity to worry about when it comes to tyranny and oppression. I think balance is the key and we've lost it....

I happen to really like the way SomeGuy put it into Constants and Variables. And you seem fixated on your heroes comments about "a lot folks are smart" and "a lot of folks work hard".. And you have a hard job for sure. But have you ever considered MULTIPLYING your acheivements dealing with the handicapped?

Just working hard and being smart ARE NOT the only traits that get rewarded. INNOVATION and SAVING folks time and money are multipliers. Let's say you've put in 20 yrs in adult remedial education... And you have an INNATE DESIRE to reach more folks needy of your skills and knowledge. So you decide to package up your accumulated tools and tips and curricula and want to distribute it.. You are now SERVING 100 times the clientele. And you get rewarded. IF -- you take risks, believe in your product and have a genuine desire to serve a bigger segment. You might have to re-mortgage your house. You might need to raise capital. You might need to protect your intellectual property. The demands are increased, your RISK is increased and the reward is not even guaranteed.

THIS --- is the diff between sweating justly and profusely and a "business man".

Business people who are drawn "by the money" and not the IDEA are destined to almost certain failure. Sweat equity is limited in it's rewards -- IDEAS and IMPLEMENTATIONS are open to negotiation..

The prez didn't need to stipulate that "You didn't build that".. He was already in trouble when he denigrated hard work and smartness as being common quantities applied equally. Because he demonstrated how little he really understands about LEVERAGING hard work and smartness into almost unbounded service to others by starting and growing a business.

And for you to sit there and whine about how people only "do that for the money" --- makes you a useful tool for his inate hatred of individual initiative, risk taking, and the free market.

The folks who started drilling for Nat Gas in North Dakota and created the biggest economic boom of the past several decades up there --- they aren't waiting for the govt to build roads and bridges and schools. They are CREATING the reality of jobs and economic growth by MULTIPLYING their sweat equity and the sweat of others in a bigger vision of serving others.. Obama doesn't get why they should be rewarded for their efforts more than him.

First off, you vitriol aside....you bring up some good points....but you are mistaken...or just perhaps a little grandiose in your "unbounded service to others" spiel. People don't start businesses with servitude in mind. They build it because they have a good idea or a skill that they can profit off of.

I've got 20 years into high tech startups in Silicon Valley that says you're wrong. The concepts are ALWAYS focused on offering a more useful product that will save time and money FOR OTHERS. If you're not starting a business to serve others -- you're simply gonna fail. Actually that why you and I and the town baker get up every morning isn't it?

And for you to sit there and worship them like Gods only makes you a useful tool to further the slave labor agenda that seems to be invading this country.like a plague of locusts.

However, the good points you made were these....Risk is inherent in business....I get it....however you make it out to be the equivalent of a guy going to a casino. They develop business plans and have a pretty good idea whether it will work or not using the "sweat equity" to make it work. It's not a roll of the dice.

It's WORSE than a roll of the dice. One of my gigs was to do tech evaluation for successful Venture capital orgs. My reports would kill an idea or move $MILLs of dollars into investments. These venture folks (who I DO idolize) were considered successful in Silicon Valley if they had a 40% success rate. That means that 60% of the time -- they rolled snake eyes. I once had a 20 foot wall papered with useless stock options that I proudly displayed as battle ribbons.

Obama did not say that hard work and smartness were applied equally. He just stated the truth.....there are a lot of smart people, there are a lot of hard workers.

The problem seems to be that you and your buddy that I told to fuck off is this.

You think that the employer is royalty....you think labor is the serf. I happen to think labor is every bit as important as the employer.....equals? No. Business owners, if they run a solid business, deserve success and all the material rewards involved. However, Labor should share in that success, because they certainly helped make that success happen.....The only thing that I've been talking about is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.....and ol' bripat...and to a lesser degree, you turned it into some kind of bullshit.

First folks I would hire into an engineering were the lower level technicians and support. Because that's the infrastructure for getting stuff running. And having the right folks THERE was more important than which MIT or Stanford grad I hired to head an engineering group. And I didn't trust those engineers to set up the lab or write org procedures -- I trusted the journeyman technicians to do that. However -- there's an organization discipline that's no different than the military which says that the Generals take the glory AND the blame for shit. And my valued technicians were getting paid for their overtime. In fact -- many times when things got rough they were getting paid when I wasn't !!!! In one startup, I once volunteered to thow an anniversity party for my Prez because he confided in me he couldn't afford to do it. I WAS driving a brand new RX7, he was driving a piece of crap Pontiac. Don't tell me -- things are pre-ordained to succeed.

Let me ask you a question. What would happen if there was a Nationwide wildcat labor strike?

Ever read Atlas Shrugged? Oh Oh.. Probably shouldn't have bought the Rand card :cool: The bigger question is -- what are you striking against? Is it the fact that we don't make TVs, toasters and basketballs in this country anymore? Those folks have no one to go picket do they? Actually -- the bigger threat to labor is AUTOMATION and EFFICIENTLY manufactured goods. Even the freaking Chinese know this. THe famous FoxConn that builds all of Apple's crap is NOT hiring more Chinese workers -- they are planning on buying A MILLION ROBOTS !!!! (no shit sherlock --- I lie to you not) America needs some leadership FROM THE VENTURE folks to get this message across clearly. If manufacturing jobs COME BACK TO AMERICA (and under the right conditions this could happen) --- they will look NOTHING LIKE the factories of 30 years ago. And folks NEED to recognize that the very definition of a job has changed. The days of lever pulling and repetitive bone-killing work are over SteelPlate. We need DIFFERENT kinds of workers to get those jobs back.

Perhaps you could explain to me why it's OK for people to work for less than it costs to live here? There are a lot of people that will work their asses off for you, be loyal, faithful employees...but their skills lie in the area of physical labor.....you know, strong backs but weak minds? Why should they be destined for a life of poverty?

I just gave you the answer.. You see it in the retail stores where the check-out clerks are just one walk-out away from being replaced by self-checkout. You see it on the farms where farmers now have Master Degrees in Ag Science and Business. You see it in banking biz where ATM and online has made tremendous changes in labor requirements. Quite bluntly -- there's not a politician out there that's smart enough to realize WHY the economy is contracting. And they have resorted to blame instead of redirecting the labor force into the jobs of the 21st Century. And the UNIONS -- OMG -- I'm NOT philosophically opposed to unions, but that 19th Century mindset about what a "JOB" is --- that's killing the entire reason for collectivizing labor.

Yes...Businessmen should be wealthy, but their employees should, if not comfortable, at least be able to not have to apply for food stamps and Medicaid...they should be able to make it on their own steam....for some(like the people who are strong of back and weak of mind that I spoke of earlier) things will still be tight, and there wouldn't be a lot of money for extras....but they should be able to make it to their next paycheck without relying on government.

What is businesses' role in society? Do they have an obligation to their employees and to the country? If corporations are "people" why are they so unpatriotic to outsource jobs and leave their fellow people to rot? If they don't have those obligations and responsibilities, then IMO the whole premise of Corporations being people is a sham.

Truth is.. We can't stop globalization. You like REDISTRIBUTION? Well that's what's happened on a macro scale. The Chinese middle class is booming out of obscurity. NOT BECAUSE Beijing stimulated the economy by handing out wads of Yuan, but because they invited in Capital and got the fuck out of the way. USED to be our FEDS could punish corporations because --- HEY? --- Where ya gonna run to? Now the answer is clearly -- "we have other markets we can serve". And the truth is -- America probably shouldn't be making tube socks and Ipods. We should be focusing on the HARD STUFF. Like Biotech, robotics, artificial intelligience, nanomaterials, power systems, aerospace.
PLENTY of jobs AT ALL LEVELS when these ventures lead the way.


BTW.... my focus is not on small businesses.....people who.have 100 employees on down need all the help they can get.

So we can sit here and whine and bitch about "corporate responsibilities" and "wage equity" and all be up in each other faces.. Or we can face the fact that world has immensely changed and we should be doing what the globalists told us 30 years ago that we NEEDED to be doing. And that's preparing a workforce for the 21st century. It also means getting capital to flow to NEW VENTURES and startups. So they can kick the CRAP out of those lethargic huge multinational companies you despise. THAT'S the vision of the free market capitalist. NOT to exploit labor. NOT to make a ton of money. But to hobble GE and Kelloggs and make them take notice of your existence.

And everything you Keynesian leftists do to "enforce morality" in the marketplace and increase regulations plays RIGHT INTO THE HANDS of the big corporations. Look at who is the jobs advisor for Prez Obama.. The guy who takes $100 in Fed Tax breaks for every washer/dryer he sells. The guy who has exported more jobs in his tenure at GE than have been created in 10 states. The guy who OWNS 49% of the Admin mouthpiece at MSNBC.

Obama would have done much better to appoint a Venture dude like Romney as his Jobs advisor.. Because they are the folks who understand "where the jobs went" and what it takes to "bring them back"... Most all politicians haven't got a clue....
 
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So, basically what you are saying is that the workforce is generally screwed. OK... let me ask you another question.....If all this automation...which, BTW....is what Obama talked about with the ATM thing that you guys blasted him on....is saving businesses time and money....How come items are so expensive? If the businesses are saving all this money, you'd think that they'd pass those savings on to the consumer and the lesser wages wouldn't be a big deal.

But that's not happening, is it? Oh....sure some luxury items have gone down like consumer electronics.....But that's about it....People don't eat iPhones, a 60" LED won't provide shelter, and you can't drive a laptop to work.

Why do you think this is? I mean they're saving time and money, right? That's why I question the whole "service to others" thing. I think it's just smoke and mirrors talk to justify greed.

What you have to realize is that something has to give. Either costs across the board have to come down for the consumer, or the consumer needs more money to live.

BTW, China? That's your vision for America? If it is, let's rig our monetary system, force foreign companies to share their intellectual property with us before we give them access to our labor and place a 25% tariff on all incoming products...

Oh, by the way...China didn't just "invite business" and got the hell out of the way....they invested a boatload of money into their infrastructure to make it state of the art....that money didn't come from their private sector...it came from government spending. Oh....BTW....how's China's economy doing lately?
 
So, basically what you are saying is that the workforce is generally screwed. OK... let me ask you another question.....If all this automation...which, BTW....is what Obama talked about with the ATM thing that you guys blasted him on....is saving businesses time and money....How come items are so expensive? If the businesses are saving all this money, you'd think that they'd pass those savings on to the consumer and the lesser wages wouldn't be a big deal.

But that's not happening, is it? Oh....sure some luxury items have gone down like consumer electronics.....But that's about it....People don't eat iPhones, a 60" LED won't provide shelter, and you can't drive a laptop to work.

Why do you think this is? I mean they're saving time and money, right? That's why I question the whole "service to others" thing. I think it's just smoke and mirrors talk to justify greed.

What you have to realize is that something has to give. Either costs across the board have to come down for the consumer, or the consumer needs more money to live.

BTW, China? That's your vision for America? If it is, let's rig our monetary system, force foreign companies to share their intellectual property with us before we give them access to our labor and place a 25% tariff on all incoming products...

Oh, by the way...China didn't just "invite business" and got the hell out of the way....they invested a boatload of money into their infrastructure to make it state of the art....that money didn't come from their private sector...it came from government spending. Oh....BTW....how's China's economy doing lately?

I try to remain optimistic on this.. Don't think we're screwed. But sweat equity is an endangered species. It's part of human DNA to build a society that becomes more comfortable to living.. When you don't have to tend 10 acres with a mule in order to eat, you have more time to actually be productive. And NOW is a very bad time in human history to be beating up on the entrepreneurs and innovators. Because --- pretty soon --- we're ALL gonna be entreprenuers and innovators of some sort.

Things in general HAVEN'T gotten more expensive. Food is one that has -- but that can explained for reasons other than efficiency of production.. Like the fact we're displacing 20% of our cropland to burn 50% of our corn in our gas tanks for no good reason..

TVs, clothing, toys, consumer non-durables --- ALL have taken LESS in wages today that they would have without GLOBALIZATION. You mentioned ATMs.. That cuts BOTH ways. The banks were NEVER gonna hire cashiers to hand you money in PERSON at MIDNIGHT on Labor Day. You pay for the additional convieniences of NOT VISITING the bank every time you spend a buck. It stll costs SOMETHING to maintain those networks.

Politicians are oblivious to how stuff gets made and priced in a Global marketplace. A guide to being completely clueless is the emphasis that this Admin places on "green jobs" or "shovel jobs" as THO ---- any of that is meaningful to sustaining a LONG TERM standard of living ---- which we BOTH WANT, Right???

Fact Of The Day #19: Manufacturing Jobs Still Reeling From Recession (INFOGRAPHIC)

US manufacturing output has risen significantly since it hit rock bottom in 2009, with a 20 percent growth over the past three years. But manufacturing jobs haven’t kept pace – only 4 percent more jobs were added over the same time period.

original.jpg


That's the nutshell. MasterLock (which BHO touted in a stump speech) has brought back a significant portion of it's manufacturring from China after battling quality issues and communication barriers. Bad news is -- they put money up front to run that plant with 1/3 the employees that USED to work there. Fact of life. It's the human evolution of work that is your enemy. NOT a class war issue.. MasterLock STILL needs a few janitors and non-skilled workers, but the days of semi-skilled and low-skilled labor are gone. We HAVE to face the consequences.. Just like the Chinese are doing.. Except --- WE were supposed to be the smart ones to figure this out FIRST --- and instead, we're blaming each other.

We don't need to BE like China.. But the money for their infrastructure came FROM the foreign capital and expertise that poured into that country. They did not borrow or leverage all those airports and services. In fact, in Shenzheng, where a lot of my clients have located -- the govt DID step away and let LOCAL infrastructure, rules, and contracts with foreign entities develop.. They had to send govt teams in AFTER THE BOOM to assess how all that stuff happened. When some of my clients first went there -- I told them their Intellectual property wouldn't be worth anything. That it would be transferred and stolen. They went anyway.

We should be looking at grabbing the lead in 21st century manufacturing technology back. Because we can't stop the train. And we can't let China figure it out FIRST. If we don't get our act together as a country and LEAP for the goal line here. We MIGHT be doomed.

Serious shit man. And arguing whether we continue with an anti-free-market leadership or back a guy who's lived the entreprenuer/innovator role is more important than any American can imagine right now.

There is a process called 3D printing for example that can make fully functional, multiple piece objects with moving parts from a single pass of sculpting materials. Enter a design and stand back and recieve the goods. This is being scaled up right now to include structures the scale of airplane interiors or small homes. THIS is what's gonna unlock labor in this country. But we need to stop whining about "the good ole days" of 20 people on an assembly line doing the same boring task for 45% of their time on earth.
 
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What part of "that all of our taxes built" did you not comprehend???

If the key to success is bridges that all our taxes built, then we all achieve equally, right sparky?

Then you, especially, need to take a remedial reading comprehension course, because that's not at all the message.

Someone sure does.

{look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something—there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.} - Fucktard Obama.
 
Let's say everyone has that special something, that magical thing that makes them want to work harder than a Kentucky coal miner and actually start their own business.Ooops! FAIL!! If everyone is a job creator, the NO ONE is a job employee.You can't hire people that all have their own businesses to worry abbout.

Anyway, Romney, Bain, et. al. DID NOT build that by themselves. The fact is that they built it not only on the backs of underpaid workers, but they built it with government money! Yep, about 80% of the "build that" costs were covered by federal and state grants.

Horseshit. Where did you get a figure for the "build that costs?" There's no such thing, asshole. And by "on the backs of underpaid workers," you mean Bain provided thousands of good paying jobs.

Anything Democrats say about business is almost always pure lies and idiocy. If they understood the slightest thing about economics, they wouldn't be Democrats.
 

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