CDZ You cannot fix social ills with a "wink & a nod!"

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Xelor, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    The Weinstein affair is just the latest manifestation of the litany of social ills that beset the U.S. We've got racial injustice which we hear about daily from all over the country. Weinstein's behavior is yet another example of sexual injustice which, though of late it's been rearing its head from within the media and entertainment industry, I suspect is no less abundant in other sectors. Both are ridiculously pervasive, and neither should be.

    From the New Yorker article. "From Aggressive Overtures to Sexual Assault: Harvey Weinstein’s Accusers Tell Their Stories":
    Wow. So Ms. Argento determined that her not being "crushed" was more important than other women not having to endure that man's unwanted advances and prurient overtures. So much for doing the right thing. And yet, now, finally, some woman said "f*ck the BS, I'm not going to sit idly by and in silence let this keep happening."
    Argento was obviously not alone in here compliance, but that doesn't excuse her, or any other individuals -- men or women -- from looking askance at that crap and letting it persist for two damn decades or more. Everyone damn one of them knew better.


    Human civilization is supposed to have evolved beyond the troglodyte state, yet were one to judge by what we hear of abuse and harassment visited upon aspiring women by men, one is hard pressed to confirm that we have. It's not just the Weinstein matter, it's O'Reilly, Trump, Cosby, and others, and there's no sense to their doing so. Those men and others like them are wealthy enough and powerful enough that nary a one of them had to force themselves on a woman; there were surely plenty of women who would have "put out" willingly.

    Plenty of men who are nowhere near as rich and influential as those guys know that to be so. Rich and powerful dudes aren't the only ones who have extramarital affairs and recreational dalliances with consenting women who are only barely known to them. It takes two to "tango," and women -- women of every color, creed, and nationality and all around the world -- like to "dance" just as much as men do.


    Quite simply, these sorts of social ills, abuse and wrongdoing are not going to stop until people unfailingly refuse to tolerate it. Does that mean each of us may be called to risk personal financial gain as a result of decrying injustices? Yes, it might; however, yours, my and no other individual's net worth is not a greater end than is the ethical solvency of our society.

    And let me be clear. I'm not talking about behaviors and mindset of which one normatively may disapprove. I'm talking about talking about malfeasant action(s) taken against one or more other individuals. One can think whatever one wants about women, men, minorities, gays, whites, adherents to a faith-based belief system, children, etc., but in the U.S. one does not have the imprimatur to abuse, assault, neglect, physically impose oneself on, harass or intimidate them.
     
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  2. OldLady
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    OldLady Gold Member

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    You know, I was SOOOO bummed out about people's reaction to the Access Hollywood tape. It obviously didn't matter to them.
    But it occurred to me with this Weinstein thing--people ARE beginning to react and show they care about it. The two guys from Fox. Now this guy. And they are BIG important men losing their jobs, not just tokens. Maybe it restores my faith in humankind a bit. Perhaps all is not lost.
     
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  3. SeaGal
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    SeaGal Gold Member

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    Wait!...you left out Bill Clinton and JFK.

    Human civilization has not and never will evolve beyond human nature. We've got a dark side that is difficult to restrain at times.

    We cannot cure social ills, we cannot prevent harm, we can only legislate against it, and prosecute when it occurs.

    'Show me a nation without moral standards, and I will show you a nation drowning in immorality.' I can't say that this behavior is more or less common than in the past - all we can do is apply the law equally, without excuse, when bad behavior rears its head.

    Most of us do unfailingly refuse to tolerate it (abuse, assault, etc)...doesn't prevent the few from doing it. All we've got to keep the wolves at bay, or at least behind bars, is the rule of law, which is why it must be protected.
     
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  4. Weatherman2020
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    Weatherman2020 Educating Libs Since 1978

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    Went on for years with ALOT of people knowing what he was doing.

    And not a peep.
     
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  5. OldLady
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    OldLady Gold Member

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    Yes. Did I say people are BEGINNING to react and show they care about it?
    Maybe being rich and powerful won't always give men a right to be pigs to their employees. We can only hope.
     
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  6. Defiant1
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    Defiant1 Gold Member

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    You can't claim buyer's remorse 20 years later.
     
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  7. MarathonMike
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    MarathonMike Platinum Member

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    I'm glad that sexual predators like Weinstein, Cosby, Weiner etc are being outed and prosecuted. I do not agree that this is a new phenomenon reflecting the alleged sick state of America. Hollywood producers as far back as the 30s and 40s routinely had sex with their would-be starlets paying their "entry fee" into the business. That is where the term "casting couch" comes from. And yes two of the most notorious Presidents who had no problem using their position of power to take advantage of women were Bill Clinton and JFK.
     
  8. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    I couldn't agree with you more! To this day, I am ashamed of my countrymen for allowing a man like that, particularly having along with the "Access" episode a litany of other instances of despicable treatment of women spanning decades right up to the present. People, Trumpkins and conservative sycophants, deign to engage in exculpatory moral relativism regarding Trump's misogyny and that of Bill Clinton. As far as I'm concerned, one is no better than other, but what's different is that we didn't have an unabashed personal attestation of pride about it from Bill Clinton, and certainly not such an avowal that was known of and made before election day.

    There is nothing "right" about a man having the attitudes he does toward over half the population, women, winning the U.S. presidency. I don't care how much one didn't like Hillary's policies or her, she did not out of hand, and on a wholesale gender level, objectify women. AFAIAC, every man and woman who voted for Trump must own that by doing so, they have minimally acquiesced to the notion that such behavior and mindset is acceptable. It is not! Never! Not ever!

    I have a daughter. She very smart, capable and multi-talented, and she's flat-out hot. She has lofty goals that there is no good reason she should not achieve. I hate that she might have to endure the sort of treatment that curs like Trump, Ailes and Weinstein, powerful men who one day may be "gatekeepers" to her success, may attempt to subject her. She'd give up a potential opportunity before she let herself be treated that way. I'm proud that's what she'd do, and equally I'm saddened that she may have to do so, thereby scuttling her chance(s) to achieve whatever be her goal(s).

    Even worse is the knowledge that no matter my influence, or that even of men of far greater wealth and power, there is nothing I or they can, given the pervasiveness of the depravity of which I write, do to ensure that she'll almost certainly never face that crap. On the contrary, because she's "hot," it's all the more plausible that she will have to deal with it at some point.

    How any father or mother can feel differently about their own daughter, and at the same time and give the "wink & nod" of tacit approbation to such behavior by their peers, is beyond me.

    They are, and it's a step in the right direction, but it's far from sufficient.

    I'm not ready to go that far. I'm not because Weinstein, O'Reilly, and Ailes did not run for POTUS after having done their dastardly deeds, bragged about them and then won. Quite simply, my faith will not begin to be restored until we send packing from political office every one of the misogynists.

    I think it has to start there because it's where there's enough scrutiny to find out about it. It's where no deep-pocketed company is going to pay for silence in order to protect itself as well as the predator. It's the realm where people, fathers and mothers can, by their voices and votes alone, make it very clear that they aren't going to tolerate it.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  9. Xelor
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    Xelor Gold Member

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    I know you're right about those traditions.
    • The point is to say that it's every bit as important that persons in power stop letting their peers get away with it.
    • The point is that people wanting "whatever" from those persons in power not let them get away with it because every time a "minion" lets it happen to them, at least one more "minion" is going to have to suffer the same odious behavior until one of them says "no more."
    The point is that sh*t needs to stop. NOW!!! If I had my way, there'd be an quarterly "Out the Misogynists" day.
     
  10. OldLady
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    OldLady Gold Member

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    JFK and Bill Clinton's affairs were with consenting women, I believe. We know Monica L was because she clearly said so. I don't know who JFK had affairs with, but if he pushed himself on them because he wrote their paycheck, yes, that was wrong.
    See, what Ailes, O'Reilly and Weinstein did isn't just typical randy male behavior freely engaged in with equally randy coworkers or acquaintances like Clinton and JFK did. It was abusing their power over women to force them to do their bidding. Too many pronouns there, but hope you get the gist. If a woman really needs that paycheck on Friday or has a great deal of ambition and doesn't want to leave a company that is otherwise offering her opportunities, it puts her in a hard place to refuse the boss. It's a damnable situation to be in. It is a very simple offer: trading sexual favors for success. In the case of Weinstein, it sounds as if the women kept quiet because he was so important to their acting careers. Everyone needed/wanted him on their side or knew they would at some point.
    This isn't just about having an affair.
     

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