You all understand that these supposed “loopholes” were created and voted upon as

[Robert]

exemptions by both parties right? And that by attacking these supposed “Evil Loopholes” you’re going to have unattended consequences.

Most of you twits that keep chirping about Loopholes have utterly no idea what the hell you’re talking about much less the ramifications of removing them. If you want to talk about specific loopholes feel free.

 

[Conservative]

exemptions by both parties right? And that by attacking these supposed “Evil Loopholes” you’re going to have unattended consequences.

Most of you twits that keep chirping about Loopholes have utterly no idea what the hell you’re talking about much less the ramifications of removing them. If you want to talk about specific loopholes feel free.

No no no... it was all the fault of the evil, baby eating, old person killing GOP! They did it!

 

[Claudette]

Well I know the Jet Loophole was actually in Barry's stimulus package.

Now all of a sudden its evil??

Funny what a difference running for re-election makes.

 

[whitehall]

Politicians created the so-called "loopholes" to accomodate certain favored supporters and now they are shocked, I say shocked that other people take advantage of them. The dirty little secret is if you closed off every alleged tax loophole it would further stifle the economy and it wouldn't make a difference in the federal debt. Let's face it, many politicians run for office because they aren't smart enough to compete in the real world. There will always be "loopholes" in the immense tax structure because corporate CEO's and tax lawyers are smarter than the dummies who make the laws. The only realistic way we are going to make a dent in the national debt is to cut spending and trim the incredible bureaucracy the federal government has become.

 

[Bern80]

The reason for getting rid of loopholes would be merely out of principle as a way to extricate business from government. Maybe we need to change seperation of church and state to seperation of corporation and state.

 

[k2skier]

"We", as the general public, don't vote on these "pork loopholes", we vote for congressmen who in turn vote for a bill with these "pork loopholes" in them...

 

[Wiseacre]

"We", as the general public, don't vote on these "pork loopholes", we vote for congressmen who in turn vote for a bill with these "pork loopholes" in them...

True, but we don't vote the bastards out when they do overspend. In the end it still comes back to us, we get the gov't we deserve.

 

[martybegan]

Its all about language. These are all tax deductions, or tax credits. However those terms do not sound negative at all. So you use instead:

Subsidy: Used when you want to make it sound like the organization in question is actually getting money from the government to do something.

Loophole: Makes it sound like the organziation in question is doing something sneaky to save the money.

 

[dblack]

The reason for getting rid of loopholes would be merely out of principle as a way to extricate business from government. Maybe we need to change seperation of church and state to seperation of corporation and state.

Exactly. My opposition to all the monkey-business regarding loopholes (whatever you choose to call them - incentives, credits, mandates, abatements, etc..) is that they've become primarily a tool for power-hungry policitians to amplify their own influence. They use them to reward their supporters and punish their detractors. Worse yet, businesses and people who can successfully manipulate government use them to enhance their own fortunes at the expense of others.

Frankly, I find it hypocritical in the extreme that the GOP is defending them. Especially given that the practice of using the tax code for social engineering is such a favored tactic of Democrats. I'd think Republicans would be totally in favor of getting rid of this kind of nonsense. What gives?

 

[martybegan]

The reason for getting rid of loopholes would be merely out of principle as a way to extricate business from government. Maybe we need to change seperation of church and state to seperation of corporation and state.

Exactly. My opposition to all the monkey-business regarding loopholes (whatever you choose to call them - incentives, credits, mandates, abatements, etc..) is that they've become primarily a tool for power-hungry policitians to amplify their own influence. They use them to reward their supporters and punish their detractors. Worse yet, businesses and people who can successfully manipulate government use them to enhance their own fortunes at the expense of others.

Frankly, I find it hypocritical in the extreme that the GOP is defending them. Especially given that the practice of using the tax code for social engineering is such a favored tactic of Democrats. I'd think Republicans would be totally in favor of getting rid of this kind of nonsense. What gives?

The issue republicans have is that if you eliminate tax deductions en masse, you really have to lower overall tax rates. Our current system is based on the idea that, while you have a legal rate of say 35% your effective rate is probably only 20% or so with deductions.

If we just eliminated deductions without decreasing the de jure rate, you would end up with a massive tax increase, which would be a royal clusterfuck for the economy.

 

[flacaltenn]

Repubs shouldn't be fond of $75/dishwasher green tax credits or govt money spent on electric cars. No tax credits ought to be considered for products that would be made anyway. Especially when there is no innovation involved. We can all agree that govt/corporate collusion is bad. Might even agree that our favorite type of govt/corporate collusion ought to go away.. The only philosophical diff is that lefties feel that the collusion is caused by corporate meddling, while economic conservatives realize that the collusion is there because govt has assumed the POWER to deal benefits and punishments and to pick winners and losers in the marketplace. No extensive meddling power === no collusion.. Corporations don't WANT to lobby and screw around politically. They do it to DEFEND themselves against efforts to favor their competition or punish them..

 

[dblack]

If we just eliminated deductions without decreasing the de jure rate, you would end up with a massive tax increase, which would be a royal clusterfuck for the economy.

That's a reasonable concern for sure. But even if the nominal rates are adjusted to keep the same net revenue, it would still have significant impact on the economy, as everyone adjusts to reality. But in the long run, our economy would more accurately reflect real market pressures and run more effectively. It's worth doing in any case.

 

[Rev.Hellh0und]

Loopholes? many "loopholes" are good, they are incentives. Look at downtown newark in the last five years if you want an example.

 

[oreo]

exemptions by both parties right? And that by attacking these supposed “Evil Loopholes” you’re going to have unattended consequences.

Most of you twits that keep chirping about Loopholes have utterly no idea what the hell you’re talking about much less the ramifications of removing them. If you want to talk about specific loopholes feel free.

There is absolutely no reason--that General Electric corporation who made 18.4 BILLION dollars last year--didn't pay a penny in federal taxes on it. This is the Obama created loop-hole--btw.

It's called corporate welfare--and big oil and now General Electric gets them. It stiffles competition in the marketplace--as what other company is going to be able to compete--with a like business--if the other has the Federal Government covering it's back.

Get rid of them.

 

[frazzledgear]

exemptions by both parties right? And that by attacking these supposed “Evil Loopholes” you’re going to have unattended consequences.

Most of you twits that keep chirping about Loopholes have utterly no idea what the hell you’re talking about much less the ramifications of removing them. If you want to talk about specific loopholes feel free.

I have a real problem with the POLITICIANS yammering out these exemptions and loopholes like they are a significant issue when it comes to our budget. We face a debt that is nearly 15 TRILLION DOLLARS and politicians are talking about a few million like they are making serious suggestions? REALLY? What crowd are they playing to that they believe would take this kind of bullshit seriously as if it represents a serious issue in addressing our debt? Oh, I guess they were targeting people like those on this thread who think this is really significant for getting a handle on our debt!

So -for those of you who think closing loopholes is a significant issue when it comes to our debt -any clue how much 15 trillion even is? And clue how much that is compared to the puny millions these loopholes represent?

I can count to a million in about 11 1/2 DAYS if I counted nonstop one number per second. It would take me about 32 years to count to a billion if I counted at that same rate.

It would take me 32,000 YEARS to count to one trillion. This is a number that people actually cannot grasp because no one has ever seen a trillion of anything and cannot count that high. Can you really grasp the true nature of of the scale of DEBT we are talking about when you have to consider you would have to multiply that by 15? The REAL question is why asshole POLITICIANS are pretending their discussion about "loopholes" is actually a substantive one that makes a serious attempt to address our out of control debt.

If you are able to understand the GAME being played here for morons who only understand a trillion is "really big", you'd be asking why they -much less anyone here - are wasting our time discussing meaningless BULLSHIT like this and why are they acting like this is a significant issue and is actually a serious attempt to address our debt when you can clearly see it is no such thing??? THIS IS A BAD JOKE being played on us! Why this big pretense that closing "loopholes" would make a damn bit of difference in our debt when even if every "loophole" and exemption were removed wouldn't do a DAMN THING and would not change ANY of our debt problems whatsoever?

This is all about asshole politicians POSTURING for the morons who think we can keep right on down this path of guaranteed financial collapse if we just stop CEOs from taking a tax deduction on their corporate jet! Sorry -eliminate every single tax deduction on corporate jets and NOTHING will change -government actually won't have any more revenue and our debt will just keep on increasing. This is an issue Democrats chose for the purpose of POLITICAL POSTURING so they can pretend they actually offered up something of substance when they did NO SUCH THING! Because there are stupid and ignorant people for whom it works. And they are counting on them to help keep up the pretense that they tried to do something SERIOUS about our debt when they did nothing but offer bullshit so they could engage in political POSTURING. And the fact they are doing just that tells you everything you need to know about trusting these assholes with anything that comes out of their mouths. Accounting tricks and bullshit like this -and they will pretend they actually accomplished something significant when the most significant thing they will have done is play us all for fools. This is actually so despicable they deserve to be turned out of office for it -and until the American people make it clear to professional politicians they will NOT accept these kinds of games, it is what they intend to keep right on doing.

It is like seeing your house covered in flood waters up to the roof -and saying if you tighten the washer on that leaky faucet in the kitchen you've made a real difference and actually helped! Do you REALLY think that would make a difference of ANY kind? SERIOUSLY? Yet here are way too many falling for it and suggesting that exact same thing is making a serious attempt to deal with our MASSIVE debt that is drowning this nation! Why waste your time or anyone else's on this totally meaningless piddly shit that won't do one thing of any substance whatsoever? But Democrats will tell their stupid constituents that they made a serious attempt to address our out of control debt with THIS kind of thing and morons will turn around and bitch about the Republicans who refuse to accept it as any kind of serious issue that will do anything about our debt on any level and refuse to accept it for anything but exactly what it is -nothing but political posturing.

 

[IndependntLogic]

"Any business that needs help from the government to survive, should not survive."

Ronald Reagan

 

[flacaltenn]

frazzledgear: You do seem FRAZZLED, I'll give you that. And I have no prob with your numbers or energy level, but --- That debt is still not QUITE one years GDP. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not minimizing the seriousness. Only to suggest that we CAN plug some leaks..

It is like seeing your house covered in flood waters up to the roof -and saying if you tighten the washer on that leaky faucet in the kitchen you've made a real difference and actually helped! Do you REALLY think that would make a difference of ANY kind? SERIOUSLY? Yet here are way too many falling for it and suggesting that exact same thing is making a serious attempt to deal with our MASSIVE debt that is drowning this nation!

I was in Nashville during our floods and spent 3 hours desperately shop-vacc'ing and mopping and bailing before I realized that right where the water was coming in --- I had a tiny 1/8 crack in the mortar on an outside deck.. Ran up there, tarped it well and no more water in the house.. It's good to know WHERE the leak is coming from..

We pay interest on the INTEREST on our debt. You're aware of the math compounding that occurs when you're this economically stupid. So less subsidies, tax credits, handouts, = less debt instruments. Other stuff the Fed buys becomes instantly cheaper because it's bought without interest..

 

[Charles_Main]

Well I know the Jet Loophole was actually in Barry's stimulus package.

Now all of a sudden its evil??

Funny what a difference running for re-election makes.

Exactly

 

[Charles_Main]

frazzledgear: You do seem FRAZZLED, I'll give you that. And I have no prob with your numbers or energy level, but --- That debt is still not QUITE one years GDP. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not minimizing the seriousness. Only to suggest that we CAN plug some leaks..

It is like seeing your house covered in flood waters up to the roof -and saying if you tighten the washer on that leaky faucet in the kitchen you've made a real difference and actually helped! Do you REALLY think that would make a difference of ANY kind? SERIOUSLY? Yet here are way too many falling for it and suggesting that exact same thing is making a serious attempt to deal with our MASSIVE debt that is drowning this nation!

I was in Nashville during our floods and spent 3 hours desperately shop-vacc'ing and mopping and bailing before I realized that right where the water was coming in --- I had a tiny 1/8 crack in the mortar on an outside deck.. Ran up there, tarped it well and no more water in the house.. It's good to know WHERE the leak is coming from..

We pay interest on the INTEREST on our debt. You're aware of the math compounding that occurs when you're this economically stupid. So less subsidies, tax credits, handouts, = less debt instruments. Other stuff the Fed buys becomes instantly cheaper because it's bought without interest..

All true, However. More Money paid to the government by people, means less money in the economy. Many of these so called loop holes are going to hit The Middle and upper classes hard. The Very people who hire other people.

 

[flacaltenn]

frazzledgear: You do seem FRAZZLED, I'll give you that. And I have no prob with your numbers or energy level, but --- That debt is still not QUITE one years GDP. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not minimizing the seriousness. Only to suggest that we CAN plug some leaks..

It is like seeing your house covered in flood waters up to the roof -and saying if you tighten the washer on that leaky faucet in the kitchen you've made a real difference and actually helped! Do you REALLY think that would make a difference of ANY kind? SERIOUSLY? Yet here are way too many falling for it and suggesting that exact same thing is making a serious attempt to deal with our MASSIVE debt that is drowning this nation!

I was in Nashville during our floods and spent 3 hours desperately shop-vacc'ing and mopping and bailing before I realized that right where the water was coming in --- I had a tiny 1/8 crack in the mortar on an outside deck.. Ran up there, tarped it well and no more water in the house.. It's good to know WHERE the leak is coming from..

We pay interest on the INTEREST on our debt. You're aware of the math compounding that occurs when you're this economically stupid. So less subsidies, tax credits, handouts, = less debt instruments. Other stuff the Fed buys becomes instantly cheaper because it's bought without interest..

All true, However. More Money paid to the government by people, means less money in the economy. Many of these so called loop holes are going to hit The Middle and upper classes hard. The Very people who hire other people.

Then start by cutting off the corporate subsidies for dishwashers and ethanol and mohair and emus and simultaneously LOWER the rates for getting that foreign-sheltered corporate cash back here to the states. During a recession, business generally hunkers downs and does basic product development and R&D -- So that they can be in good position when the economy picks up.. Bringing that money back to the US would encourage that to happen HERE -- rather than in Ireland..

Some of the gimmicks in the stimulus like cutting payroll taxes (for purely progressive redistribution) should go away now as well. Why are we strangling Soc Sec at a time when it's going negative in it's budget? But you could wait on other middle class "loopholes" until after a decent recovery..